Help Please quick question on electricity

[Sluicebox]

Hello and thank you in advance for reading this.
I currently run 3x1000w on a 40a range circuit with a 25a water heater timer. I want to expand to 4x1000w. I know the 40a can handle it but what of the timer? I would still be under 80% load. 4.5a each total of 18amp. 80% of 25 is 20. My load would only be 18amp. However on start up would I exceed capacity?

2nd question. Same 40amp circuit I would like to run from range plug to a metal j box and pull two rooms from it. Meaning like this. 40 amp breaker in main panel goes to range plug. 8-3 from the range plug to j-box. 2x 8-3 out of j-box one to first room to 25 amp water heater timer powers 4x 1000w. 2nd 8-3 goes to 2nd room to an additional 25 amp water heater timer powering another 4x 1000w lights.

The range is not in use and is unplugged. I feel that this should work as long as the j-box is of the correct cubic inches and grounded. Am I wrong here?

I could also probably swap out the 40 amp breaker and disconnect the 8-3 wires in the box, cap them off so not in use and replace with a 50 amp and run all this on 6-3 and 40 amp wh timers. However I would still need to split the rooms with a j-box. Thoughts? Thanks again.

 

[Sluicebox]

Let me add that the rooms would be offset meaning they don't turn on at the same time. I could do this like a flip flop and run one for 12 hrs and the other for 11.75 hrs. So that only one room is on at any given time. Provided the timers stay in synch. likely 11.75 hrs per room would give me more leeway to keep timers calibrated with each other.

 

[queequeg152]

you are going to find it very difficult to do what you are proposing while keeping the wiring in code.

first you should not gang on a j box to a plugged in outlet. imo just do the work and abandon the outlet, install a proper jbox somewhere and continue the circuot to where ever you need it. it will not take long provided you have some simple tools, linemans etc.

second, keep in mind your timer need not take the entire ampacity of the load here... thats what relays are for. Run your timers output circuit into a proper 50 amp PROTECTED AND ENCLOSED PAINTED AND GROUNDED & BONDED(if its metal) ENCLOSURE, and install a proper contactor.

the contactor will handle the ampacity, and it will do it nicely. you need an enclosure for any relays or contractors unless they specifically say they are rated for open air use and listed as such. you should get a proper crimping tool if you are using stranded copper wire for this circuit.

you can flip flop the circuit as you like provided you are not exceeding the ampacity of your circuit at any given time, it wont be even close to code however... but its not uncommon for folks to "steal" circuits for things like electric emergency heaters (usually 60 amps) for things like garage work shops. basically when one is working in the shop, one hits a switch and powers a relay on which disconnects the heating elements in the hvac system preventing it from powering on and blowing the circuit. the power is essentially diverted into the shop instead of the electric heater.

what you would be doing is no different really... i just strongly encourage you to do things responsibly and properly... never put your hands where your mind has not been days earlier.

 

[queequeg152]

also you need to properly down rate cable ampacity based on its ambient temperature.

if you are running new THHN or NM or what ever in a hot ass attic, inside conduit or nailed to joists... you need to keep the maximum temperature in mind so you can properly down rate the circuit. most of the time it makes no difference as you round down to the nearest number anyway.

you do the same thing for various sized conduits with varying amount of other circuits inside. not all cable is rated the same... check the sheathing for the insulation temperatures.

 

[Sluicebox]

Thank you very much for your advice. I will research those. If you don't mind please take a look at this thread in a couple days. I will post here first and seek your thoughts. Excellent words to live by "Never put your hands where your mind has not been days earlier." very good indeed.

Best to you.

 

[Sluicebox]

3 pole reversing contactors, Is that what I'm after? That's some pretty cool stuff with lots of possibles.

 

[rykus]

Instead of spending on the j box/ 25 amp timers and 4 extra ballasts you should buy 2 40amp relays and flip/flop just the bulbs. Way safer and cheaper. Just flip the lamp wires and wire the commun together saves buying 4 relays. Most electrical places will sell the contractors and relays as well as all the proper metal enclosures. It's honestly really really easy and I'm not a electrician by any means( but I have had them look at my work) and with all the crimp on eyelets it's so easy and 8 gauge is fine, even if you did have all 8 fire up (wired as you suggested / worse case) it would be fine (but maxed). IMO avoid breaks in the line and try to use copper. Put a high temp stu off to that main contractor too is a huge saving grace!

 

[rykus]

It would be 40amp breaker - 40amp contacter with timer/high temp shut off - 4 ballasts - relays with timer - 2 rooms of 4 lights.

Make sure to use 40amp relays too, a lot of store bought flip boards use a "ice cube"looking relay that are about 5 amp.... They have a tiny little 20 gauge(looking)wires and do light on fire...

 

[stoney917]

Rykus is dead on .... if u gonna run them flipped what u wanna do is 10x the work... n completely unnecessary. .. a simple flip box will solve all ur problems, ,,, no need for 4 more ballasts no complicated electrical $$$, now if u want the option to run 8k at once just man up run a correct dedicated circut no tapping boxes...

 

[Sluicebox]

Thanks everyone, I have no idea how to 1up a useful post yet but I would if I could. That would be nice just flipping the lamps only using 4 ballasts. I will look into all this. Much appreciated.

 

[CoCoSativas]

Thanks everyone, I have no idea how to 1up a useful post yet but I would if I could. That would be nice just flipping the lamps only using 4 ballasts. I will look into all this. Much appreciated.

You can click yes where it asks if you found a post helpful that shows someone found it helpful.

You can send bigger reps by clicking the icon between the indicator that shows people online offline (green on grey off, you will see green on yourself if you are logged in and check a thread and see lots of grey dots I'm about to be grey here in a min) and the report post red triangle thing. It looks like scales or something one quick easy click...

 

[Sluicebox]

Not seeing that icon where it asks if I found a post useful. I figured I had to get some minimum of posts before they would let me rate a post.

I found a Helios 8 lighting controller, would that do everything I'm wanting to do? I have the 8 ballasts already.

 

[mowood3479]

Not seeing that icon where it asks if I found a post useful. I figured I had to get some minimum of posts before they would let me rate a post.

I found a Helios 8 lighting controller, would that do everything I'm wanting to do? I have the 8 ballasts already.

Kind of... I have one n its worked ok for years... Just wire it to ur circuit n ur good to go..... But I've been told by ic members who are professionals in the electrical trade that all of these commercial light controllers use the cheapest components possible and that they only meet code in a specific application (warehouse lighting).. Not residential grow lighting... But ya, it'll work. I've had the Helios one and a few other brands as well n no problems

 

[Sluicebox]

Just read the specs on it and it requires 50amp circuit. So no dice. I will go to the elect supply store in town and ask them for the right contactors and post what I wind up with and ask for input. Thanks again.

 

[Sluicebox]

sorry that should be,,, I just read the specs. The way that was posted made me sound like a dick. Sorry for that.

 

[queequeg152]

you need a double pole double throw relay/contactor rated for what ever your circuit ampacity is.

remember you are switching two "hot" legs here. both 110/120 volts to ground.... they are 180 out of phase and hence combine to yield the 240vac our ovens know and love.

most hvac places will carry these. IDK about electrical supply houses to be honest, i dont frequent them much.

 

[Sluicebox]

Found one at local HVAC 40Amp 2 pole NO contactor $41.15 does that sound right? And thanks by the way.

 

[Sluicebox]

NO meaning normally open

 

[Sluicebox]

Eaton C25DNF240T That's the part #

 

[Sluicebox]

forget that part sure it's the wrong one. I will get the right one tomorrow. But here is the layout, let me know what you think.

40A breaker out to 40A DPDT relay contactor splits here to 2 different boxes, powering 2 different rooms. 4 ballasts off each side, total of 8 ballasts. Coil is 24v for mini volt timer. One room is powered when contactor is open, when contactor closes first room shuts off and other room powers up.

If this is correct then what would be the best way to tie this into the ballasts? Should I just do all the work inside a j box? Or install recepts (20A outlets) total of 4 per box. Then just plug ballasts into new boxes.

I hope I'm getting warm here. Thanks so much for your help.