Heavy metals in Organics

[russian420]

Many years ago in beginning i did grow with Pots outside
with mixed nutes.
Some of the plants got chemical nutes
and some Organic nutes only.

The result in the pots after harvesting:
Organic pots still like new. Pure. No need wash.
Chemical pots full of nasty leftovers.
Chemical grown Pots Need hard wash.

This is why i do Organic only todays
After i see how much shit there was left in the Chemically grown pots.
I actually did alot flush also.
There was alot shit left anyway

 

[MJPassion]

Many years ago in beginning i did grow with Pots outside
with mixed nutes.
Some of the plants got chemical nutes
and some Organic nutes only.

The result in the pots after harvesting:
Organic pots still like new. Pure. No need wash.
Chemical pots full of nasty leftovers.
Chemical grown Pots Need hard wash.

This is why i do Organic only todays
After i see how much shit there was left in the Chemically grown pots.
I actually did alot flush also.
There was alot shit left anyway

It sounds as if you were mixing your salts a little too rich!

 

[Microbeman]

It sounds as if you were mixing your salts a little too rich!

Actually some quantifiable and qualifiable observations might be the first thing to state. I'm not sure that 'nasty leftovers' and 'shit' fulfills either.

 

[Microbeman]

Funny your in Washington too thailer, lots of well water (and massivley varying quality). My main grow spot over the years ran 400ppm well water through recirculating hydroponics/rockwool and the plants absolutely loved it haha best results ive ever had.

We also ran a couple of large highly oxygenated hydroponic growing stations experimentally. [cost about $10K to set up]. We also had constantly circulating nutrients, carefully monitored in terms of EC/TDS (ppm) & pH (avg 5.6). The growth rate was unbelievable with enormous yields, however there were 3 severe drawbacks.
1/ We had a much higher incidence of fungal pathogens [I learned later that powdery mildew loves phosphorus] 2/ It was more difficult to control mites and thrips 3/ Our clientele complained about drop in quality.

My attempts to incorporate natural nutrients into one of the systems failed. [although I think it can be done. I just did not know enough then]

 

[russian420]

Actually this is true.
In the middle and end flowering i did use double dosages of these chemical nutes.

I did that also with the organics.

Maybe professionals dont get leftover salt when using PPM meter and PH meter with chemicals ?

I did also get nute locks i think with the chemicals.
Because i did wrong with the dosages.

Organics is more simple use if you do good homework before.
There is alot ALOT reading before if you want a real nice harvest.
Its worth it i think.

Because i medicate alot.
I do Microdosage every 3-4 hours.
Organic grow feels more safe because of this.

It is also alot how you use it, how much daily, and so on.

And it is important stop all feeding at least two weeks before harvest i think.
There is timing also.

Sorry for alot offtopic.


All i know heavy metals are bad for you.
In Germany there was a psyco who killed other workers in many years he put
Heavy metalls in other employeers food and sandwiches.

Please read about this sick bastard:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6648129/german-man-poison-lunches-colleagues-bielefeld-ari-armaturen/

'KILLER' COLLEAGUE Man feared to have killed 21 colleagues by sprinkling heavy metals / poison on their LUNCHES over the last 18 years
The suspect, named Klaus O, was detained in Bielefeld, west Germany,
after video footage captured him tampering with a co-worker's lunch box.

Cops in Bielefeld, in the west of the country, said 21 of his colleagues have died before they reached retirement age from a “remarkably high number of heart attacks and cancers”, reports The Times.

Sick bastard.

 

[Drewsif]

Heavy metals are only poison above a specific threshold. Every soil grower should know his soil, obviously. People freak out over the mere mention, but its the levels that count. The micro minerals I use have all the nasties in them, in natural levels.. If humans haven't tolerated/adapted to eat the food they've been eating since the beginning of time, then how did we make it so far...? Did God grow hydroponic in the garden of Eden?

 

[EvergreenState]

Ha just "some" beneficial bacteria?.. thats where organic wins.. my soil is super alive.

You can add all that stuff and tell yourself that plant is absorbing it etc but you dont know..

Even my worst soil mixes when i was learning organics did not go that badly compared to several times using a different bottled nute and getting horrible tasting weird plants..

The trillions of extra microbes in an organic mix is where it wins out because they mediate and mitigate any toxic excesses..

Plus plants have grown with this level of mutualistic relationship in soil since day 1 and not in soiless mixes being drip fed nutrients decided by its master..

When you go organic you'll understand when you see plants happier and healthier than anything you have seen.. you cant force greatness..

Only imo but i did use bottled nutes for 15 years before going organic 5 ago and i do wish id gone organic 20 years ago now.

Can plants look perfectly healthy but also have too high of a concentration of heavy metals?

 

[Ibechillin]

My apologies if I offended anybody, Drewsif seemed to understand what I was hinting at haha. Lost in a SOG my posts were oriented towards cleanliness/purity between "organic" and "sealed indoor synthetic" growing methods and not end user opinions on quality.

Im well versed in natural/organic methods as well as nutrient science and raw salt formulating (well beyond bottles...). Ive been researching heavily into how individual elements and amendments interact with the microbiology in the soil/medium lately. Plan is to utilize a hybrid approach of Albrecht's/Slownickel's BCSR in an "organic" type soil utilizing only the amendments that are productive to the microbiology. Then routine foliars (like epsom salt since you want to keep mg low in the soil) and weak applications of raw salts/solubles to stay ahead of potential deficiencies and maximize growth at specific intervals when nutritional needs change.

It seems the saying too much of anything being bad applies the same to the elements in the soil/medium and microbiology with excess of anything being harmful.

Ive been reading into building a soil and supplementing intermittently with synthetic fertilizers for awhile now (glad to see it mentioned). From what I understand microbes/fungi break matter down and release the ions of different nutrients. Synthetic nutrient "salts" are pairs of nutrient ions that when added to water separate back into the ionic forms directly available for uptake (no microbe/fungi processing needed).

Fertilizers containing ammonia seem to be the main ones that kill the microbe and fungi life in a medium, they like nitrate N from what ive found. Rock Phosphate seems to be the best source of P for maintaining micro/fungi life, even boosting the formation of mycorrhizal fungi (more so than bonemeal). High concentrations of readily available P like from triple super phosphate kills the microbe/fungi life as it creates an environment they dont like.

Im still trying to find more information on potassium/microorganism interaction before making a determination on it.

Ive been leaning towards reducing inputs of magnesium and relying on solely adding it to feeds with epsom salt or foliar as needed for more control. Calcium sulfate dihydrate is water soluble and can be used the same way, adding aminos with the calcium sulfate increases the calcium availability greatly also.

Links On The Subject:

Effect Of Chemical Fertilizers On The Beneficial Soil Microorganisms:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ashwin_Revanna2/publication/309010603_Effect_of_chemical_fertilizers_on_the_beneficial_soil_microorganisms/links/57fdca1e08ae406ad1f3d814/Effect-of-chemical-fertilizers-on-the-beneficial-soil-microorganisms.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Effects Of Phosphorus On Soil Microorganisms:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2017.01266/full

We also ran a couple of large highly oxygenated hydroponic growing stations experimentally. [cost about $10K to set up]. We also had constantly circulating nutrients, carefully monitored in terms of EC/TDS (ppm) & pH (avg 5.6). The growth rate was unbelievable with enormous yields, however there were 3 severe drawbacks.
1/ We had a much higher incidence of fungal pathogens [I learned later that powdery mildew loves phosphorus] 2/ It was more difficult to control mites and thrips 3/ Our clientele complained about drop in quality.

My attempts to incorporate natural nutrients into one of the systems failed. [although I think it can be done. I just did not know enough then]

Thanks for the info on fungal pathogens/Powdery Mildew and phosphorus, could you explain that more? Are you saying to avoid foliar spraying P? I know in the rootzone its harmful to microbiology and that the plant treats some beneficial fungi as pathogens when ample soluble P is present (cited above in my quote).

The only problem I ever encountered when running recirculating hydroponics for a few years honestly were spider mites occasionally in flower on certain strains (and algae in the first 2 cycles if you consider that a problem lol got that dealt with quick though). It was my first grow(s) and grow system I never even changed the reservoir during flower cycles just topped off everyday with more feed water (used a local hydro store called Lindas Gardening And Hydroponics house brand base nutrients called Rockwool Magic) and added Great White powder intermittently, no water chiller either.

Thanks to Slownickel and Jidoka I narrowed it down to the calcium in my well water that made the significant growth, yield and quality I had been experiencing and trying to understand.

 

[h.h.]

I don't find any of it insulting.

Conventional and organic can both be dirty so to speak.
I do organic because I feel I make fewer mistakes organically. I've been tricked before by both.
While perhaps not so true today, organic growers tend to take more interest in their products. That's what lead them to organics.
Finally, I do it for the sport.

 

[MJPassion]

Heavy metals in your grow medium are just like an individuals health and the various concoctions made for healing...

The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dose.

Of course there are a few exceptions such as mercury and radioactive materials.

 

[St. Phatty]

Can plants look perfectly healthy but also have too high of a concentration of heavy metals?

Consider the area around Chernobyl.

A wildlife park where the animals don't get peanuts thrown at them because the people are afraid of the radiation.

 

[Microbeman]

Ibechillin; I should really have predicated my statement about increased phosphorus use correlating to fungal pathogens with 'IME'.

I became suspicious that fungal pathogens resulting in powdery mildew, botrytis, rust etc. were increased with the use of available phosphorus. We ran some informal tests, applying high P rates to the growing media while using minimal and zero P on other plants in the same media but in a different 'room'. I observed the bearing out of this hypothesis.

I then undertook an informal interview type survey research of regional grape growers. (8 farms as I recall) I asked what kind of pressure they were experiencing from powdery mildew and then got an outline of their fertilizer application. Across the board PM pressure was increased with the use of P to increase fruit set. There were 2 farms which reported no PM. Both used zero available P; they were both certified organic and one produced almost all nutrients on farm (compost, etc).

So you can see, I can hardly call this conclusive but I stored the information in my own toolbox.

Paradoxically phosphoric acid is used foliarly by some growers to control PM.

EDIT: I should point out that some of the scientific members of this forum undertook research several years back which revealed that the P levels used and prescribed by some of the fertilizer companies were excessive. I don't know if you might find some of this with a search. I do believe this resulted in some adjustments.

Thanks for the info on fungal pathogens/Powdery Mildew and phosphorus, could you explain that more? Are you saying to avoid foliar spraying P?

 

[Ibechillin]

The 2 organic farms not applying available P and hurting the microbiology then not encountering PM is a good example of how the soil bacteria/fungi enhance environmental and pest resistances.

How long ago was it that you did the survey of the grape farms P applications and PM relation? Did the information about recommended over application of P come later?

Ive researched down the over application of P rabbit hole pretty deeply. I feel like research into fertilizer and microbiology interaction has come a long way in the last 20 years with regards towards working with and trying to maintain the microbiology instead of ignoring it entirely in efforts to reduce the need for pesticide application.

 

[Cigarviper]

Wollastonite

 

[Microbeman]

How long ago was it that you did the survey of the grape farms P applications and PM relation? Did the information about recommended over application of P come later?

99/2000 Yes