Is this really the case... im seeing alot of reports saying they arent the same as they use to be. What other companies have declined in quality?
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Has the quality of Sensi and Soma seeds declined recently?
- Thread starter T.doT.Toker
- Start date
Nobody has answered your question yet
G
Guest
Seems that way for alot of companys..
keetypoo420
Member
Agreed
G
GhostToker
They are probably having less sales precisely because of their high prices & shitty germ rates
I have had Hash Plant and Silver Haze from Sensi Seeds. The germ rates for both were good. The Hash Plant was very disappointing when finished. The Silver Haze was ok, but my Mr. Nice Super Silver Haze is in a different league. The Mr.Nice SSH is far superior. I did not keep either of the Sensi products in my mother collection. I have some Sensi Hindu Kush on the way. We'll see how that goes. As for Soma, the germ rate was very low at 10%. I was lucky to get a ruby red grapefruit/tangerine pheno female that I have kept for years. She is actually a nice plant otherwise I wouldn't have kept her. This is the only Soma product I have run. Just my personal experiences.
Peace, Mr.M
Peace, Mr.M
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i was intrested to pick up some of somas offerings but was put of from the numerous reports of very bad germ rates.
had sensi nl and popped 4 beans had 100%germ and 2 males and 2 fems.
after1 year my beans were kept in the fridge and tried to germ 5 my nl my germ ratio was 0% as they never popped and went mouldy.have 6 beans left but dont hold out much hope for these as it at least another year down the line.
had sensi nl and popped 4 beans had 100%germ and 2 males and 2 fems.
after1 year my beans were kept in the fridge and tried to germ 5 my nl my germ ratio was 0% as they never popped and went mouldy.have 6 beans left but dont hold out much hope for these as it at least another year down the line.
It IS NOT the breeders fault if the stock sits on the shelf at the distributor because of the price... I've run Black Domina and NYCD... Both germed/performed nicly
This is an old question that constantly reappears. Growers buy seeds, pay big money for them, and the germination rate is poor, lousy, or the seeds do not germinate at all.
There is probably a percentage of growers that fuck up their germination, but I personally believe that percentage is quite low. The growers that buy seeds from breeders or seedbanks are generally growers that have found their way to the online grower communties. If they are resourceful enough to inform themselves on what strains to buy, and where to buy them from, they are probably resourceful enough to find good information on how to germinate Cannabis seeds, which exists in the forums.
It is not very difficult to germinate a Cannabis seed. There are methods to optimize germination, such as pre-soaking the seeds in water, the famous paper-towel method, optimizing temperature, degree of humidity, etc.
But in general, you can just stick it in the ground, water, and wait for it to sprout. I've germinated seeds outdoors in 10º temperature (50 F) with close to 100% germination, so saying that Cannabis seeds need a lot of warmth and nurturing (depending on strain) is something of a myth. These are tough little buggers after all, conceived by nature to survive fire and frost. Germinating seeds in room temperature is close to perfect.
In order to kill a viable Cannabis seed, you more or less have to manipulate it badly, freeze it, fry it or give it no water.
In short, you really have to fuck up to get a bad germination rate from viable seeds.
A Cannabis plant needs somewhere between 14 to 35 days to produce viable seeds. In general, fresh seeds straight off the plant is close to 100% viable.
A badly stressed, badly nourished or otherwise ill-treated plant could produce less qualitative seeds, but this is almost to exclude when we're talking professional breeding. These are - after all - experienced growers and breeders who knows how to cultivate plants. I have a hard time seeing Soma or Sensi Seeds mistreating their plants to the point that they produce less viable seeds.
So, in general, when the breeder has harvested his seed crop, the seeds are close to 100% viable.
Most quality-conscient breeders also do a selection of their seeds, eliminating the seeds that to the eye do not cut the cake. When that selection has been made, the seeds should be even closer to 100% viable.
So, when you buy a pack of seeds, why do you get a lousy germ rate? Mostly, because the seeds are old. The close to 100% viability decreases with age. How you store the seeds is important in order to prolong the viability of seeds, but viability decreases with age no matter how well you store the seeds.
You can more or less identify an old seed. A fresh seed exposed to a state-of-the-art germination should germ within 48 hours, often in 24 hours. Older seeds have already developed a rougher seed pod, and the hormone levels within the seeds changes slowly over time, making them more dormant. The effect is that they need more time to germinate. If you try to germinate a pack of ten seeds, and the germination speed and rate is very uneven (let's say one or two seeds germinate fast, a few others need more time, and finally a lower or higher percentage do not germinate at all), it is a good indication that the seeds are old.
The breeder could sit on the seeds for a while before he finds a buyer, but usually a breeder have a buyer even before the seeds are ready. A seed crop is often pre-ordered.
So where do the seeds go old? Hard to say. Tracability of a batch of seeds is not always as simple as breeder>seedbank>grower. Sometimes, seed lots are exchanged as payment, or bought from other players in the Cannabiz. Seeds get shipped around, changes owners, sits for a while, changes owners again. Somewhere along the line, they go bad.
Seedbanks and seed companies keep a track of the seeds age, and the viability, partially based on grower's responses. But there are more honest players and less honest players, and loosing a seed lot due to decrease in viability can sting economically. The seeds are sold anyway.
Some seedbanks transform old seed lots into freebies. This is an excellent way of dealing with the problem. The customer pays only for fresh seeds with a high germination rate, and the freebies regenerate sales in happy, returning customers.
One could ask oneself what Seedbanks that do not practice the freebie system do with their seed lots, when seed packs fall below 80%-70% viability. Do they just chuck them into the garbage, or sell them anyway?
Nevertheless, if a freebie pack of cheap Nirvana seeds isn't a big deal for the seedbank, a freebie pack of old DJ Short, Soma or Sensi Seeds could be more of an economical loss, since they are generally sold to the seedbank for a higher price.
I'm only guessing here, and making no acccusations, but I think it might be so that high priced seeds sells in less quantities, turnover is slower, the seedbank is less willing to throw in $10+ seeds as freebies, so they tend to be stored longer.
So in an overall perspective, the germination rate is lower in high priced seeds (unless the seedbank is very conscientious), which of course is an outrage for the buyer, who demands a higher germination rate for high priced seeds than low priced seeds.
What can you do about it?
Systematically boycott the vendors that do not deliver viable seeds (or replace them if it's beyond reasonable doubt that the seeds were old), and out them in the grow forums if your case is waterproof.
Think about who you're accusing. In theory, it is unlikely (but possible) that the breeder or the grower is responsible for a bad germination rate.
Finally, one or two dead seeds in a pack of ten seeds falls within the possibility of coincidence (that is, no ones responsability), and if the seedbank throws in a pack of decent quality freebies, it is is a sign of goodwill that should be taken into account.
There is probably a percentage of growers that fuck up their germination, but I personally believe that percentage is quite low. The growers that buy seeds from breeders or seedbanks are generally growers that have found their way to the online grower communties. If they are resourceful enough to inform themselves on what strains to buy, and where to buy them from, they are probably resourceful enough to find good information on how to germinate Cannabis seeds, which exists in the forums.
It is not very difficult to germinate a Cannabis seed. There are methods to optimize germination, such as pre-soaking the seeds in water, the famous paper-towel method, optimizing temperature, degree of humidity, etc.
But in general, you can just stick it in the ground, water, and wait for it to sprout. I've germinated seeds outdoors in 10º temperature (50 F) with close to 100% germination, so saying that Cannabis seeds need a lot of warmth and nurturing (depending on strain) is something of a myth. These are tough little buggers after all, conceived by nature to survive fire and frost. Germinating seeds in room temperature is close to perfect.
In order to kill a viable Cannabis seed, you more or less have to manipulate it badly, freeze it, fry it or give it no water.
In short, you really have to fuck up to get a bad germination rate from viable seeds.
A Cannabis plant needs somewhere between 14 to 35 days to produce viable seeds. In general, fresh seeds straight off the plant is close to 100% viable.
A badly stressed, badly nourished or otherwise ill-treated plant could produce less qualitative seeds, but this is almost to exclude when we're talking professional breeding. These are - after all - experienced growers and breeders who knows how to cultivate plants. I have a hard time seeing Soma or Sensi Seeds mistreating their plants to the point that they produce less viable seeds.
So, in general, when the breeder has harvested his seed crop, the seeds are close to 100% viable.
Most quality-conscient breeders also do a selection of their seeds, eliminating the seeds that to the eye do not cut the cake. When that selection has been made, the seeds should be even closer to 100% viable.
So, when you buy a pack of seeds, why do you get a lousy germ rate? Mostly, because the seeds are old. The close to 100% viability decreases with age. How you store the seeds is important in order to prolong the viability of seeds, but viability decreases with age no matter how well you store the seeds.
You can more or less identify an old seed. A fresh seed exposed to a state-of-the-art germination should germ within 48 hours, often in 24 hours. Older seeds have already developed a rougher seed pod, and the hormone levels within the seeds changes slowly over time, making them more dormant. The effect is that they need more time to germinate. If you try to germinate a pack of ten seeds, and the germination speed and rate is very uneven (let's say one or two seeds germinate fast, a few others need more time, and finally a lower or higher percentage do not germinate at all), it is a good indication that the seeds are old.
The breeder could sit on the seeds for a while before he finds a buyer, but usually a breeder have a buyer even before the seeds are ready. A seed crop is often pre-ordered.
So where do the seeds go old? Hard to say. Tracability of a batch of seeds is not always as simple as breeder>seedbank>grower. Sometimes, seed lots are exchanged as payment, or bought from other players in the Cannabiz. Seeds get shipped around, changes owners, sits for a while, changes owners again. Somewhere along the line, they go bad.
Seedbanks and seed companies keep a track of the seeds age, and the viability, partially based on grower's responses. But there are more honest players and less honest players, and loosing a seed lot due to decrease in viability can sting economically. The seeds are sold anyway.
Some seedbanks transform old seed lots into freebies. This is an excellent way of dealing with the problem. The customer pays only for fresh seeds with a high germination rate, and the freebies regenerate sales in happy, returning customers.
One could ask oneself what Seedbanks that do not practice the freebie system do with their seed lots, when seed packs fall below 80%-70% viability. Do they just chuck them into the garbage, or sell them anyway?
Nevertheless, if a freebie pack of cheap Nirvana seeds isn't a big deal for the seedbank, a freebie pack of old DJ Short, Soma or Sensi Seeds could be more of an economical loss, since they are generally sold to the seedbank for a higher price.
I'm only guessing here, and making no acccusations, but I think it might be so that high priced seeds sells in less quantities, turnover is slower, the seedbank is less willing to throw in $10+ seeds as freebies, so they tend to be stored longer.
So in an overall perspective, the germination rate is lower in high priced seeds (unless the seedbank is very conscientious), which of course is an outrage for the buyer, who demands a higher germination rate for high priced seeds than low priced seeds.
What can you do about it?
Systematically boycott the vendors that do not deliver viable seeds (or replace them if it's beyond reasonable doubt that the seeds were old), and out them in the grow forums if your case is waterproof.
Think about who you're accusing. In theory, it is unlikely (but possible) that the breeder or the grower is responsible for a bad germination rate.
Finally, one or two dead seeds in a pack of ten seeds falls within the possibility of coincidence (that is, no ones responsability), and if the seedbank throws in a pack of decent quality freebies, it is is a sign of goodwill that should be taken into account.
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i would like to see more breeders use batch numbers,so far i think i have seen only serious seeds use them.that way they can trace each pack back to a specific harvest of seeds and would help alot more when people note a bad germination rate amongst a certain strain.
G
GhostToker
Excellent post Rosy Cheeks!
Good post Rosy Cheeks. I usually get 90%-100% germ rates with my seeds. The exception being some of the freebie Skunk #1 seeds and the Soma NYCD from late 02, if I remember correctly. I'm sure Soma is not doing anything to degrade the quality of his seeds, which leads me to believe the stock was probably older. Either that or the seeds my have been stored incorrectly at some point. Maybe moved from a freezer to room temp and then back to a freezer. Who knows??
Peace, Mr.M
Peace, Mr.M
Sometimes i see reports on the plants themselves not being as good quality as previous years. Your post makes a lot of sense though rosy.
Erin Kerrik
Member
Read a recent interview with Ben Dronkers where in the context of the possibility of the EU making it illegal to grow, he said Sensi has a two or three year supply of seeds to distribute. From that, one could assume the seeds they send out are already years old ...imnotcrazy said:
Good find EK, but I find it strange that the seedbanks haven't reacted in that case, because they're getting the complaints. Besides, I remember this grower asking Dutchgrown about a week ago why the Seedboutique didn't carry Sensi Seeds Black Domina, and DG replied that it was just out of stock.
If you're sitting on a couple of years of supply, you don't need to let any seedbank go out of stock.
If you're sitting on a couple of years of supply, you don't need to let any seedbank go out of stock.
G
Guest
Nice post Rosycheecks,
I totally agree with what you say, I started a thread on this a while back,
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=58990
problem is that while theyre making so much money out of this, they dont have to listen, & there are no shortage of punters out there. Seed is the cheapest & heaviest part of the plant, I dont know how many seeds to the gram, but its probably more expensive than gold, another overated expensive product that the Dutch are good at marketing. Got to admire them really.
Old chinese proverb, "if you lend a friend £10, & you never see them again, its money well spent"
cheers frmz2
I totally agree with what you say, I started a thread on this a while back,
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=58990
problem is that while theyre making so much money out of this, they dont have to listen, & there are no shortage of punters out there. Seed is the cheapest & heaviest part of the plant, I dont know how many seeds to the gram, but its probably more expensive than gold, another overated expensive product that the Dutch are good at marketing. Got to admire them really.
Old chinese proverb, "if you lend a friend £10, & you never see them again, its money well spent"
cheers frmz2
I just read your thread farmaz, you've got every right to be angry. Seeds almost do sell for a higher price than gold. It might seem unjustified at first glance. Nevertheless, you're not only paying for the seeds (which are technically easy and cheap to produce).
You're (hopefully) paying for high quality genetics, which has sometimes taken years to develop and stabilize, in facilities that can house the production, and that generally have to be kept hidden (even in Holland, it's illegal to grow more plants than what is concidered for "personal use", which is why breeders - like Soma and Sagarmartha - get busted when their grow facilities are discovered).
You're also paying for a service that in many cases is illegal. Seedbanks are not supposed to ship to countries where Cannabis seeds are illegal. Once a product and the handling of this product is illegal, prices tend to rise into abstraction, because those who takes risks want to be paid accordingly.
I think you can influence the people in the cannabiz, and the forums are the instrument for it. Here's where growers share information on genetics and the performance of breeders and seedbanks. Just as much as they want good publicity, they don't want any bad publicity. It works both ways.
It is in the interest of all parts (breeders, seedbanks and growers) that people who buy seeds get what they pay for. If you're prepared to pay $100 or more for a pack of ten seeds, it is your personal choice. But when you pay for dead seeds, it is a scam.
Date stamping and breeder certificate should be standard on all original seed packs, and I find it curious that breeders that care about their reputation do not insist on it.
You're (hopefully) paying for high quality genetics, which has sometimes taken years to develop and stabilize, in facilities that can house the production, and that generally have to be kept hidden (even in Holland, it's illegal to grow more plants than what is concidered for "personal use", which is why breeders - like Soma and Sagarmartha - get busted when their grow facilities are discovered).
You're also paying for a service that in many cases is illegal. Seedbanks are not supposed to ship to countries where Cannabis seeds are illegal. Once a product and the handling of this product is illegal, prices tend to rise into abstraction, because those who takes risks want to be paid accordingly.
I think you can influence the people in the cannabiz, and the forums are the instrument for it. Here's where growers share information on genetics and the performance of breeders and seedbanks. Just as much as they want good publicity, they don't want any bad publicity. It works both ways.
It is in the interest of all parts (breeders, seedbanks and growers) that people who buy seeds get what they pay for. If you're prepared to pay $100 or more for a pack of ten seeds, it is your personal choice. But when you pay for dead seeds, it is a scam.
Date stamping and breeder certificate should be standard on all original seed packs, and I find it curious that breeders that care about their reputation do not insist on it.
