H2O2 and other Material help Budding

[speedracer-x]

H2O2 on the other hand will actually kill both aerobic/anaerobic microorganisms because of the state the oxygen pops off as.

After h2o2 would be introduced to the water with time to find equilibrium, if we were only talking about water (RO or distilled with nothing in them) would 2(h2o2) -> 2(h2o) o2; and the o2 formed at that time be a safe form of oxygen that can then be used at a later time? Thats kind of a hangup for me...what makes that o2 molecule different from the o2 molecule in oxygenated water if the o2 is a stable molecule?

 

[speedracer-x]

The difference is that "aerated water" has oxygen in a different form than when H2O2 is introduced.

I guess it comes down to this...After the introduction of h2o2 to water, with time, there will be a uniform mix. At that time, keep in mind h2o2 in low concentrations, is the oxygen a different form than the aerated water oxygen, and how is it different if it already changed from h2o2 to h2o and o2?

 

[Guest]

After h2o2 would be introduced to the water with time to find equilibrium, if we were only talking about water (RO or distilled with nothing in them) would 2(h2o2) -> 2(h2o) o2; and the o2 formed at that time be a safe form of oxygen that can then be used at a later time? Thats kind of a hangup for me...what makes that o2 molecule different from the o2 molecule in oxygenated water if the o2 is a stable molecule?

I'm not sure what makes this happen, but as far as I know, the result of hydrogen peroxide dissociation is an O2 ion with a charge of -2, making it very strong in terms of ripping other molecules apart, etc.

With oxygen in water, it exists as O2 but with no charge - it isn't an ion.

This may be right, it may be not, but that's as far as I can understand.


Regardless, the moral of the story is don't bother using h2o2 in soil!

 

[dontlockmeup]

this is by no means an arguement and i am not an expert on this topic. i'm just trying to understand your theory. my theory above was how i was understanding the information given to me on this thread only. i've stopped using H2O2 because of my own experience with it. I will still use it on my smaller plants to get a good strong root system going but after that i'm going to use bubbled water only(particularly when i water with guanos and worm castings). I've seen no significant gain in yeild from using H2O2 and my plants seem to be yellowing earlier than when i didn't use it. After reading this thread i came to the conclusion that my organic nutrients and soil weren't working right because of the H2O2 and that is why my plants were yellowing at 4-5 weeks of flower instead of 7-8 weeks.

I'm not sure where you got your information from and i certainly don't have enough time to put in the research to figuring this out. It's been over 15 years since i took chemistry so it's not like I remember a whole lot. From what i was understanding from an earlier post, was the radical oxygen atom in H2O2 had a negative charge. how do two things that are negatively charged become attracted to each other and bond to form a molecule. i do understand that sometimes atoms within a molecule share a common electron. i guess the O2 could be sharing their electrons.

The oxygen must be in different forms. if they were the same it seems that you would be able to make your own H2O2 by simply bubbling water. this is why i'm coming to the conclusion that extra O in water from H2O2 is different than the O from bubbling.

 

[speedracer-x]

I'm not sure what makes this happen, but as far as I know, the result of hydrogen peroxide dissociation is an O2 ion with a charge of -2, making it very strong in terms of ripping other molecules apart, etc.

With oxygen in water, it exists as O2 but with no charge - it isn't an ion.

This may be right, it may be not, but that's as far as I can understand.


Regardless, the moral of the story is don't bother using h2o2 in soil!

Got it, checked it, you are correct. Apologies for my stubbornness
http://www.auraresearch.com/freerads.html

From the Department of Biochemistry, University of London King's
College, London, U.K.

/snip
Despite the low reactivity of O2- in aqueous solution, systems
producing it do a great deal of damage in vitro (e.g. they
fragment DNA and polysaccharides, kill bacteria and animal cells
in culture) and in vivo (e.g. when O2- generating systems are
injected into the footpads of rats inflammation is produced,
their instillation into the lungs of rats and rabbits produces
oedema and cell death, and infusion of them into vascular beds
produces endothelial cell damage and extensive leakage from the
blood vessels) (21,26,28). Depending on the circumstances,
damage caused by O2- generating systems might be attributed to
/snip

 

[Guest]

Yeah I don't know why one is charged and why one is not. I guess O2- is maybe an ionic molecule whereas O2 is a covalent one. Just my guess though

 

[speedracer-x]

I guess O2- is maybe an ionic molecule whereas O2 is a covalent one. Just my guess though

I will ask my chemist friend next time he is in town, he loves explaining this kind of stuff.

 

[dontlockmeup]

cool. let us know what you hear.

 

[Guest]

O2 that exists in H2O2 releases the single radical O atom. If there is nothing for the radical to bond to then it dissipates, if I remember correctly. When the radical dissipates then you will be left H2O1 (water). Free radicals have a very short half life.

The difference between the 2 are: Oxygen as is, is a grounded atom; meaning it has paired electrons. A radical on the other hand has un paired electrons. The unpaired electrons are what cause the free radical to pursue other atoms for a pair; once paired it leaves the atom which is stolen from as a new free radical.

J.

 

[Guest]

I talked to my chemistry prof. and she said generally H2O2 dissociates into two OH- molecules. Under special conditions it may do otherwise, but usually, she says, it'll be OH- molecules that result..


On wikipedia (ok, let's just assume it's reliable for a sec bc I don't wanna search for other sources) I see this:

"Decomposition

Hydrogen peroxide always decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:

2 H2O2 → 2 H2O + O2 "


-------------------

Now wikipedia tells us it goes into water and oxygen GAS.

Oxygen gas has no net charge.............

Note that it says decomposition. Now: Is this the same as dissociation when in solution? I have no idea but I wouldn't necessarily assume so. Annnnyways, let's just assume sometimes HOOH can produce oxygen gas, and sometimes HOOH will go into two OH- molecules.

I'll ask my chem prof. what decomposition means as far as our discussion goes, and I'll ask about the H20 and HOOH reaction and what significance it has.

I'll even tell her what the poster's question was in terms of plants and supplying oxygen so she knows what I'm talkin about and I'll let you all know what she says. In the meantime.....................
-----------

So why does HOOH destroy cells, etc etc?

Well, I guess it would be because HOOH can dissociate into OH- molecules

OH- molecules make a solution basic and OH- molecules are what disrupt cells and provide unfavorable conditions for cells




That's all I can come up with.....
Apparently HOOH dissociates into OH- or sometimes oxygen gas, but that oxygen gas is not the same as a free radical and does not have a net charge!

Ka-peesh?

I'll fill ya in on the details of the remaining questions/confusion once I figure it out & ask

 

[Guest]

k i asked my soil sci prof and the reaosn why u shouldnt use h202 in soil is:

if h2o2 comes into contact with organic materials it will oxidize them (essentially rippin them apart) beause of an O- ion

if it doesn't, itll turn into water and o2, and o2 is not going to rip org. material apart

but, the fact that h2o2 when in contact will oxidize org material is enough of a reason to not use it in soil