Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[praisehim.]

mp. cool got that.. but my main, which powers the flush mounted one, is only running it with an 80a. so are you saying take out the flush mounted panel out an put in a new one with a 70a ? i cant just replace my current breakers ?

i was thinking, cause what i really need is a couple 120 oulets an a few 240's (6). can i take out one of the 20a breakers and put in a 2 pole 30a breaker in its place an the empty one next to it ? an then hook up the 240 outlets to that ?

thanks a lot...really..i appreciate it.

 

[madpenguin]

For the other sparkies here, feel free to join in...

Your feeder cable to the flush mount is only rated for 65A if it's in conduit the whole way. Since you won't be able to find a 65A breaker the NEC allows you to bump it up to a 70A rating. If those feeder conductors are actually part of a cable assembly, then they are probably only rated for 55A wich means the NEC will allow you to protect them with a 60A breaker. Either way, that flush mount panel is over fused.

Been a busy past few days and I have to leave any second to have yet another one (busy day). I'll post back later tonite if no one else chimes in. Just seems a waste and redundant to power a sub off of a sub.

I'll get back to both of you in 10 hours or so (about the t5 question as well).

Cocktailfrank, PC, sparkjumper, and others.... You guys are more than welcome to chime in here. Just don't knowingly advocate violating the NEC and I won't get a stick up my ass about it, that's all.... I've also seen an IBEW member or 2 floating around here. Electricians, post if you want. This isn't my thread or anything. Philthy started it, not me.

 

[madpenguin]

Got a ?? for all you sparkys out there. I have a lithonia lighting Z-strip dual T5 2ft set up I wanted to get some high output T5s but I want to make sure the ballast would be able to is capable. The 2 bulbs that would go in are 24w each the set up currently has 14w the balast says 28w 120v. So good idea bad idea???? Thanks everyone!!
TC

Probably a bad idea. Worst that could happen is the ballast probably wouldn't ignite the lamps.

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/LL/documents/specsheets/Z-T5.pdf

Look on your ballast for any possible identification numbers such as:
Z 2 28T5 MVOLT GEB10PS

It's pretty safe to assume that if the ballast says it's only rated for 28w lamps then it's not going to be able to fire anything bigger.

 

[madpenguin]

@ praisehim,

I'll repeat the last post because it's vital info:

Your feeder cable to the flush mount is only rated for 65A if it's in conduit the whole way. Since you won't be able to find a 65A breaker the NEC allows you to bump it up to a 70A rating. If those feeder conductors are actually part of a cable assembly, then they are probably only rated for 55A which means the NEC will allow you to protect them with a 60A breaker. Either way, that flush mount panel is over fused.

Also, what do those existing breakers in the flush mount panel feed? Do you need them? Can you just ditch those branch circuits and claim the entire existing flush mount panel for the grow op?

But I'll repeat, that existing panel's main feeder is over fused. That's a bad situation.

 

[praisehim.]

mp: first i must say... i really appreciate the info..

but yes.. that panel is just for my veg room, nothing but ladies.. thats really why i just wanna figure out a way to get six plugs (240) an maybe 3 or 4 120's.

i was thinkin maybe i could just take off all the feeders an completely unhook the flush panel an just run the wires through the back of the "other" sub panel an hook that up instead. would i be able to do that ? i would only get the 80 amps thats being fed from the main then right ? or 70 ? ...either would be fine.
i wont be goin over 30-40 amps really..
^would that be the easiest an cheapest way ?
thanks again...

 

[madpenguin]

mp: first i must say... i really appreciate the info..

but yes.. that panel is just for my veg room, nothing but ladies.. thats really why i just wanna figure out a way to get six plugs (240) an maybe 3 or 4 120's.

We already did a load calc. It wound up being around 70A....

i was thinkin maybe i could just take off all the feeders an completely unhook the flush panel an just run the wires through the back of the "other" sub panel an hook that up instead.

You could do that but you would have mounting issues. You couldnt put the cover of the flush mont panel back on so your feeder conductors would just be flopping out of the flush mount and then running into the other subpanel.....

I just don't feel like your grasping everything I'm trying to say.

1.) The main double pole breaker that feeds the flush mount panel needs to be replaced with a 60A double pole breaker!

2.) Exposed cable or conductors of any kind is inviting disaster unless it's something like your ballast lamp cords that are strung up high. No exposed feeder conductors or romex!

3.) Why do you insist on using the second subpanel when you already have an existing one? Is it because it's a flush mount and old working outlet runs to it is going to be a pain?

would that be the easiest an cheapest way ?
thanks again...

I typically don't do easy and cheap. That means your cutting corners and loosing the safety aspect of the installation. I feel like we are going in circles here. I've said what needs to be done in order for it to be safe.


Can you please post a pic of the main panel that has the 80A breaker in it and also tell me whether the feeder conductors are in conduit or not?

We are really getting no where fast here because your just not listening to me and answering any of my questions.

 

[madpenguin]

Ok, so we just completed our electrical today. I hope that we did everything right, but I know it works!

I missed your post... Congrats.

Here is what we did do:

We installed a 100 amp double pole breaker in our main. We then wired 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire out of the wall from the breaker through 1" pvc and back into the wall near our sub-panel. We purchased a flush mount panel that could accommodate up to 8 spaces. We ran 12-2 for everything except for our 240 to our light controller, for that we used 10-2. We tested all the outlets, lights, etc. and it all worked! The only thing we did not test was the 240 receptacles as we did not have anything to test them with.

Anyways thanks for all the help and info that I received in this thread. If anyone is interested, I will be posting some more pics in a new thread about our build.

Individual #2 AL conductors in conduit is only rated for 90A. They do make 90A breakers. Your over fused by 10A but really it's not too big of a deal. You've also slightly gone over the allowed conduit fill for 1" schedule 40 (Annex C of the NEC). But..... A for effort. You came pretty close. You also only needed #6 AL for the grounding conductor (250.122). Nothing wrong with overkill, just makes the conduit more full.

I'm going to assume you used individual conductors inside the conduit and not SER cable or anything. If you ran SER cable inside conduit, your going to have some serious heat issues and it would need to be pulled and redone..

Annex C in the Back of the NEC is really important when running in conduit because the conductors need to dissipate heat under load. They do that by the surrounding air. If you jam pack a 1" pvc conduit full of wire, you're going to do some insulation damage over time because the wires will get too hot in there.

You have actually exceeded what most licensed electrical contractors do who have been in the trade for 30+ years.

Those jokers are still using #2 AL SER cable to power a 100A subpanel. Since it's cable and not in conduit, #2 AL SER is only rated for 75A.... Actually, a few months ago, I saw #4 AL SER feeding a 100A sub....

Sparkjumper, frank and others, this is the reason I'm so bent out of shape about the trade I'm in and the cavalier attitude some of you seem to have concerning the NEC. People cut corners and have a complete disregard for the NEC, all just to make a buck.

I can give you tens upon tens of examples of serious code violations that I've repaired just this year alone. And most of it was done by licensed electrical contractors. People like that just really piss me off and I'm tired of doing service calls. I'll be glad when I can get back into new construction and have it done the right way the first time. Inspectors in my area know my work so well when I am fortunate enough to get a new work job, that they don't even look my shit over. They see that it's my job and they just ask for the permit so they can sign it off. They literally don't even look at my wiring...

I take pride in my work and my reputation amongst the county inspectors where I live and I stand by my work 100%. Call it arrogance if you will but I'm not in it for the money. I'm in the trade because I've always been fascinated by electricity and I literally love my job. I'm just as much into electrical theory as I am in physically wiring a job.

Sorry for the side tracked rant there but I can't help but try to explain myself here. I have people asking me questions, I give sound and code compliant advice, but then sometimes people don't even read what I'm saying and they keep suggesting illegal and unsafe alternatives to supplying power to their grow room. It gets frustrating because when that happens, I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, and all the time I spend typing this shit out and trying to help people is wasted...

 

[madpenguin]

Dude.... Your not kiddin. Not only do I feel like I'm at work, but I feel like I'm training a first day apprentice who just isn't grasping it. A couple people have been like this now. We could go into page after page of me asking the same questions and the same questions being asked of me that I've already answered.

People need to just slow down and read. Then absorb. If your still unsure, go back and read. We've covered so much shit on this thread that most electrical questions are pointless to start a thread on because it's probably already been covered here.

Like the lamp/ballast cord post I just answered. Was no need to even post. The info is already in the sticky....... I may be making myself scarce soon if people can't take the time to read this thread before asking questions.

too much work.....

 

[praisehim.]

no worries. i got it already done yesterday... i pulled the breakers, added a new 40 amp 2 pole.hooked up the receptacle (240) to a timer with 4, 240 oulets wired to that..works great : )

 

[JMasta]

If it is any consolation Penguin, I really appreciate all your posts. I am currently learning all I can about setting up electrical and you have been lots of help. I may have questions for you in the next couple of weeks, but for now, thanks.

 

[madpenguin]

no worries. i got it already done yesterday... i pulled the breakers, added a new 40 amp 2 pole.hooked up the receptacle (240) to a timer with 4, 240 oulets wired to that..works great : )

No worries huh? Actually, I have quite a few.

1.) What gauge wire is connected to that DP 40A breaker?

2.) What NEMA type receptacle did you hook up to unknown 40A wire?

3.) What amperage is the timer rated for?

4.) What gauge wire did you run between the timer and the 4 receptacles?

5.) What are the 4 240v receptacles rated for (NEMA type)?

Any and all of those, if done improperly or used improperly, can start a serious fire.

Ugh.... Unless you answer every single one of those questions I'm going to worry about your setup. You guys are killin' me......

 

[cocktail frank]

i hear you MP, thats why i dont pitch in as much as i did when i first signed up for this site.
i helped alot w/ my old nick.
but nobody even read what i wrote or they couldnt comprehend it.
thats why i kinda stopped answering every electrical thread.
it helps that there are a few more sparkies here that will chime in and help out.
it really makes you wanna pull your hair out (what is left of it anyway)
its not so bad if we all take turns.

 

[madpenguin]

This would be ideal, I know. I'll have to see who I know that's an electrician. Pretty sure I could pull off arranging it when no one would notice. 240v isn't needed, but a 20a circuit would solve the problem of where to run my bedroom ac in the summer since half the apt is on that one circuit. Even though it will only run the cab and a couple cfl hallway lights, when I need that AC there isn't another circuit close enough and I'm sure one 15a will NOT handle the cab and AC.

Well, my thinking was not for 240v but to have 2 seperate 20A circuits. You can pull that off with 12/3 romex attached to a double pole 20A breaker in the main panel. Yes, you will have a voltage potential of 240v between the red and black wires but you just use the black 120v for one receptacle and then the red 120v wire for another receptacle. And then the neutral is shared.

If your using both receptacles at the same time, the neutral will see the imbalance of the load between the 2 receptacles. Only problem is, most stuff has to be AFCI protected on the 2008 code and they don't make an AFCI DP breaker that I'm aware of.

You're right, I should do this. Most of the wire I've seen in this building is that old cloth insulated stuff - pretty ratty looking too. When I asked the landlord about this unit she was fairly sure she had electricians in about a decade ago upgrading things to code, but when we moved in there was a GFCI kitchen outlet wired wrong - the kitchen was one area she specifically said was worked on (landlord botched the outlet, not the electricians) - but the wires were old and crusty.

Yea.... You really should try to run your grow off some new romex. The piece of mind it will bring is really nice. Your kind of rolling the dice with that old Knob & Tube wiring.

 

[praisehim.]

mp: i appreciate your concerns, but im pretty sure everything will be ok, considering i hired an electrician.. : ) i was more shadowing him, then actually doing the work. so my shitty skills were not applied..luckily..haha.

but let me try an answer your questions..theres 6 gauge all the way i belive, going from the breaker to the receptacle.. an new one.. dont know exactly which. an then a 70a,240v timer thats hooked up to that. then.. i really dont know how.. he wired 6 240v plugs to it..

^that probably doesnt even make sense..but im trying man...
its pretty crazy.. but seems to work great.. i cn take pics if you'd like..

thanks for all your help..

 

[qbert]

Not a total elec newb, but far more experienced with DC circuits than AC high volt stuff.

Quick ?. Is it worth it/good/bad idea to outfit a grow cab (< 1000w total draw, 400w hps for main light) with an overcurrent protection device (breaker)?

Intuitively, it seems this would only be useful if the breaker in the panel failed and the in-wall wiring between the outlet and the panel started a fire (100 yr old 5 unit apt bldg - no idea what the wiring looks like, some has been redone - panel is 15 ft away in the common hallway).

Also, what about protecting the whole cab with an GFCI? I fairly well get what these do, but I'm not sure I see a necessity. The only alternate ground path I could envision myself becoming would be to the hot water radiator a couple feet from the cab (soil grow). Also, no idea if our bldg is properly grounded. Lots of 2 prong outlets everywhere and I think an electrician was telling me a subpanel had ground/neutral tied or something (was a couple years ago, didn't pay enough attention).

If overcurrent protection is worthwhile where would I look for a single breaker install parts - everything in the Depot etc. is panels for a bunch of breakers?

thx.

 

[madpenguin]

Not a total elec newb, but far more experienced with DC circuits than AC high volt stuff.

Quick ?. Is it worth it/good/bad idea to outfit a grow cab (< 1000w total draw, 400w hps for main light) with an overcurrent protection device (breaker)?

You could... Nothing wrong with redundant systems. Something like this would work.

That's a Fedral Pacific box tho. Don't get a FP box unless you have a stick and a bag of marshmellows handy. With something like that, you could remove the double pole and replace it with a 15A GFCI breaker.

You might be able to attach a handy box to either side and have 2 receptacles. If your panel is 15 feet away, I'd find some way to old work some new 12/3 romex on a 20A double pole breaker(at the main panel) to the wall receptacle you are using. I know it's a common hallway and all, but try to pick a time when you think no one will be around. Having Brand new 12/3 romex runing to a spec grade new 14-20R receptacle along with something like the above box with a 15A single pole GFCI breaker might be kinda sweet. But..... Still redundant. Atleast you would be running off of new romex instead of old Knob & Tube wiring. You could also slap another 15A breaker in that small box and upgrade to 10/3 wiring from your main panel on a 30A DP breaker. If you ever have the need for 240v, you'll have it. Get some 10/3 MC cable to run from the small box to the receptacle (put a plug on the end of the MC cable.

There is a million and one different things you could do... I'm just tossing kind of lavish ideas your way.

I'd shut the breaker off to that receptacle and see just what kind of wire feeds it. If it's 2 old dirty black cloth wires coming into a black metal box, then I wouldn't feel overly good about using that wiring for my grow.

That subpanel situation with the grounds and neutrals on the same bus should be taken care of. It's not detrimental but still against code.

I'd do the 10/3 new homerun to the receptacle box on a 30A DP breaker at the main. While I was there I'd probably buy a separate grounding terminal and attach it to the frame of the main panel. Remove all the grounds from the neutral buss and put them on the new grounding terminal. Old work your new 10/3 to the receptacle your using now. Put a dryer receptacle in it. Go buy a dryer cord to hook up to 2 15A GFCI breakers in the small box. One hot leg to each breaker. Neutral to the neutral bus and ground attached to the frame of the box. You'd basically have a Multi wire Branch circuit with 30A of available power at 120v with a disconect switch right by your cab (the breakers or even unplugging the dryer cord).

Again, you can rig it up pretty much how ever you want it.

 

[madpenguin]

mp: i appreciate your concerns, but im pretty sure everything will be ok, considering i hired an electrician.. : ) i was more shadowing him, then actually doing the work. so my shitty skills were not applied..luckily..haha.

but let me try an answer your questions..theres 6 gauge all the way i belive, going from the breaker to the receptacle.. an new one.. dont know exactly which. an then a 70a,240v timer thats hooked up to that. then.. i really dont know how.. he wired 6 240v plugs to it..

^that probably doesnt even make sense..but im trying man...
its pretty crazy.. but seems to work great.. i cn take pics if you'd like..

thanks for all your help..

All of that sounds about right. Thanks for hiring an electrician. I feel better now.

That 80A main breaker still needs to be changed back at the main panel tho. Wish you would have told him about that.

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

No worries huh? Actually, I have quite a few.

Any and all of those, if done improperly or used improperly, can start a serious fire.

Ugh.... Unless you answer every single one of those questions I'm going to worry about your setup. You guys are killin' me......

i feel ur pain and similar worries too "mr penguin".
kudos to you sir u definately know,repect your trade/code!

i too am a master at the trade but i decided to NOT teach some newbie enough to really fuckin dangerous cuzz as u well know this trade as do I.
u cant learn it on some growsite thread! it took us fuckin years of digging trenches, crawin thru attics dragging a romex in ur teeth then u get promoted to bending pipe and settin boxxes, strappin, dont forget about the many cuts to your hands knuckles etc.... and thats just the fuckin grunt part move on to wiring, trimming, hot checks/ t-shooting etc......

then you become "lead material" and start runnin work, you now have the responsibilty for your entire crew and their code omissions,ignorance, laziness etc.......... dealing with inspectors who most all have a "hard-on" for some sort of "gig"

i am sure you get my point!!!

I got tired of "worrying" about it and still dont feel too comfortable giving electrical advice on a "growsite"

god bless you "mr penguin" and god bless all those "electical newbies" whom choose to follow ur carefully laid out advice. unfortunately there is too much stuff to learn/know/master in this trade to assure good advice has been given (it too easy for us tradesmen to assume some knows something so obvious to us we dont even mention it in our "advice")

I am a contractor now and have been for many years, once you have the perspective of a biz owner "liabilities, risks,potential problems" jump off the table,drawing, spec. amd in this case "posts" right at ya!!!!

once again "mr penguin" let me recap:
u have my utmost respect ( i have seen too many tradesmen too lax on the code, u r not )

god bless you and your attempt(s) to educate the "elect. newbs."
be careful you dont teach some one "enough to be dangerous"

BUZZ!

 

[Buzzsmirk!]

bump

 

[praisehim.]

oh i did.. hes gonna help me out with that as well... i might have to get a second meter put in though..not sure. got my fingers crossed..all i really need is another 4 thouies...hopefully it works.