greek landrace strains

[ngakpa]

hi Hempy,

We seem to be talking at cross purposes here.

Nobody is denying that Cannabis was being cultivated in Europe by the mid 1st millennium BCE. It was the Scythians that appear to have introduced cultivation.

But the only serious evidence for its use in early Europe by European cultures is as fibre, e.g. as in Dioscorides.

The asterion claim is imo unconvincing. In other words, I don't buy that Pausanias was describing Cannabis.

As you say, there are one or two references by ancient Greeks, but importantly, Democritus was from Thrace - where Cannabis certainly was cultivated

Ephipphus (4th Century BC) also mentions using Cannabis in food

The question here is whether there's any solid evidence that Cannabis was cultivated and used as a drug ('intoxicant') any time from Classical Greece through to the Ottoman era...

As far as I can see there is next to none, except for some highly speculative things such as the interpretation of asterion as Cannabis

 

[CannaZen]

IMHO i wanted to ban its illegal substance to me its sick of knapweed. Today its medicinal anti-inflammation and hemeostasis helps with the sedentary however.

 

[@hempy]

hi Hempy,

We seem to be talking at cross purposes here.

Nobody is denying that Cannabis was being cultivated in Europe by the early to mid 1st millennium BCE. It was the Scythians that appear to have introduced cultivation.

But the only serious evidence for its use in early Europe by European cultures is as fibre, e.g. as in Dioscorides.

The asterion claim is imo unconvincing. In other words, I don't buy that Pausanias was describing Cannabis.

As you say, there are one or two references by ancient Greeks, but importantly, Democritus was from Thrace - where Cannabis certainly was cultivated

Ephipphus (4th Century BC) also mentions using Cannabis in food

The question here is whether there's any solid evidence that Cannabis was cultivated and used as a drug ('intoxicant') any time from Classical Greece through to the Ottoman era...

As far as I can see there is next to none, except for some highly speculative things such as the interpretation of asterion as Cannabis

Scythians came from southern Siberia and were nomadic warriors i dont know how they could of been farmers.



No there is lots of evidence of the use of cannabis by ancient Greeks they used it with wine they used it like incense and got high from the smoke as did the Scythians who used it at funerals by throwing cannabis onto a fire so they could talk to their dead.



There is evidence of cannabis growing in ancient Greece lots of it.




Migrant humans carried cannabis from Asia through Greece and Russia into Europe, and later from Africa through Spain and other ports of entry on the Mediterranean Sea. Thanks to their love of the seed, birds also did their unwitting part to help hemp escape cultivation. One of the earliest and most famous accounts of the ancient use of hemp was written by the Geek Historian Herodotus (5th century BC), who described its part in the funeral rites of the Scythians, nomads who ranged the steppes from about 1300 to 600 BC. The Scythians were defeated -- and introduced to hemp -- by the Thracian Getae early in the 6th century BC. The Scythian chieftains were buried in a chamber with a wife and servants, each in their own compartment, all in splendid apparel and surrounded outside by dozens of slaughtered horses and former guards:
"When they have buried the dead, the relatives purify themsleves as follows: they anoint and wash their hands; as to their bodies, they set up three sticks, leaning them against one another, and stretch, over these, woolen mats; and, having barricaded off this place as best they can, they make a pit in the center of the sticks and the mats and into it throw red-hot stones.



"Now, they have hemp growing in that country that is very like flax, except that it is thicker and taller. This plant grows both wild and under cultivation, and from it the Thracians make garments very like linen. Unless someone is very expert, he could not tell the garment made of linen from the hempen one. Someone who has never seen hemp would certainly judge the garment to be linen.
"The Scythians take the seed of this hemp and, creeping under the mats, throw the seed onto the stones as they glow with heat. The seed so cast on the stones gives off smoke and a vapor; no Greek steam bath could be stronger. The Scythians in their delight at the bath howl loudly. This indeed serves them instead of a bath, as they never let water near their bodies at all..." (64)

 

[ngakpa]

the Geek Historian Herodotus (5th century BC),

Geek historian? --- he was a bit of a nerd, but that hardly seems fair

nomadism often involves farming

more to the point, Herodotus is very clear that the Scythians did farm, that many were settled farmers, with the exception of the Royal Scythians, who were purely nomadic

what's the source for that claim that the Getae introduced the Scythians to Cannabis cultivation? That looks like someone making it up as they go along to me

[edit: it's Robert A. Nelson, A History of Hemp... and he's passing off uninformed speculation as fact... https://www.rexresearch.com/hhist/hhist1.htm]

according to Herodotus, when the Scythians came to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, north of the Black Sea, they'd been driven out of the Middle East, which they'd been rampaging through after invading from Central Asia

the Scythians spoke an Iranian language - ethnically, they were the northern Iranians, the Persians being the southern Iranians...

the Scythians dominated huge tracts of Inner Asia in the Axial Age, including much of what's now Xinjiang, Afghanistan etc.

No there is lots of evidence of the use of cannabis by ancient Greeks they used it with wine they used it like incense and got high from the smoke

There is evidence of cannabis growing in ancient Greece lots of it.

ok, go on then... I would love to see it

 

[@hempy]

Geek historian? --- he was a bit of a nerd, but that hardly seems fair

nomadism often involves farming

more to the point, Herodotus is very clear that the Scythians did farm, that many were settled farmers, with the exception of the Royal Scythians, who were purely nomadic

what's the source for that claim that the Getae introduced the Scythians to Cannabis cultivation? That looks like someone making it up as they go along to me

[edit: it's Robert A. Nelson, A History of Hemp... and he's passing off uninformed speculation as fact... https://www.rexresearch.com/hhist/hhist1.htm]

according to Herodotus, when the Scythians came to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, north of the Black Sea, they'd been driven out of the Middle East, which they'd been rampaging through after invading from Central Asia

the Scythians spoke an Iranian language - ethnically, they were the northern Iranians, the Persians being the southern Iranians...

the Scythians dominated huge tracts of Inner Asia in the Axial Age, including much of what's now Xinjiang, Afghanistan etc.



ok, go on then... I would love to see it

The Ancient Greeks covered a huge area

 

[@hempy]

Evidence of food producing economy, simple hut construction, and seafaring in mainland Greece and the Aegean 7000 BCE Neolithic Period
(7000-3000 BCE)


Hemp has a longer history than opium, brought to Europe before records began. It came from Central Asia along with the mysterious Yamnaya people, and the plant has been in northern and central Europe for over 5,000 years. Doubtless it was appreciated for its uses in making rope and fabric, but braziers have been found containing charred cannabis, which shows that the less practical aspects of the plant were also explored. It is known that the Chinese were cultivating cannabis significantly stronger than the wild plant at least 2,500 years ago, and both the product and knowledge of how to make it would have travelled along the Silk Road.


The Greek physician Dioscorides was also familiar with cannabis and reported that extensive use tended to sabotage the user’s sex life, to the point that he recommends using the drug to reduce sexual desire in persons or situations where such impulses might be considered inappropriate. Another Classical author interested in better living through chemistry was Roman philosopher Pliny the Elder. His Natural History lists the properties of many plants, among them “laughing weed”, which he says is “intoxifying” when added to wine. Galen describes how hemp was used in social gatherings as an aid to “joy and laughter”. Half a millennium beforehand, Greek historian Herodotus reported something similar.


Herodotus – who was an extraordinarily good anthropologist, as well as the world’s first historian


Blind to the truth?

This passage is rather typical of mentions of drug usage in the ancient world. Was Herodotus really so naive that he didn’t recognise the drug’s influence? Or was there a taboo about discussing the subject – either in the Classical world or in the monasteries where the ancient texts were copied and preserved?
It seems strange that while archaeological finds suggest recreational drug use was far from uncommon in antiquity, all references to it are at least as oblique as that of Herodotus, and vanishingly rare in even such cases.
Even medicinal uses of cannabis are hard to find in ancient texts – but are being found now that archaeologists know what to look for. For example, a fourth-century AD Roman tomb of a 14-year-old girl who had died in childbirth was found near the city of Beit Shemesh (near Jerusalem) in the 1990s. A substance found in the skeleton’s abdominal area was assumed to be incense, until scientific analysis revealed it to be tetralydrocannabinol – a component of cannabis. It seems likely that the drug was used to ease the girl’s travails, and eventually to aid her passing from life itself.
When it comes to drugs in ancient world, we need to read between the lines – as is the case with so much of history.

 

[OregonBorn]

When you look at ancient Egypt, its economy pretty much ran on beer. Everywhere they look, archeologists find breweries. So for people not to have smoked or brewed cannabis to get high is pretty unlikely. They knew agriculture and what they could get from plants with rather elaborate cultivation and processing techniques for millenia. Ancient Egypt has now been moved back in time as well. The old era before the unification of the two kingdoms in 5,100 BP (before present time) has been set back to about 7,000 BP. We know that the Egyptians grew Cannabis. They left the seeds in tombs. When they started planting it we do not know. It may well date back to 6,500 BP or even before that though. Beer brewing goes back at least 7,000 years, when the first record of it was documented on papyrus by the early Egyptians. Before the Egyptians, the primitive cultures of Mesopotamia are believed to have been the first brewers, though they didn’t write anything down. It is speculated that they brewed beers going as long as 10,000 years BP though.

As for the migrations of the peoples from Siberia and their migration into Europe and them bringing agriculture and Indo-European languages with them into Europe? My yDNA haplogroup R1 ancestors were running around Siberia during the latter period of the ice age from 28,000 BP until about 12,000 BP when they migrated and settled between the Caspian and Black Seas. My later subclade R1b1a1a2 (also known as M269 the most common haplogroup of men in Europe today) migrated into Europe starting about 8,000 BP from west Asia. They brought farming and most likley Cannabis cultivation with them then. Evidence to support this are from an archeological find of Cannabis seeds found in Romania along the Danube dating back to about 8,000 BP. The practice of farming was established in Iberia and in central Europe by 7,600 BP. Archeological evidence in Italy show that they cultivated Cannabis in Italy dating back to 6,500 BP. A second wave of farmers came from west Asia into Europe around 5,000 years ago. That wave also brought Indo-European languages with them that replaced all the older languages in Europe except Basque. But the evidence suggests that the first wave of farmers brought Cannabis with them to Europe and the Mediterranean about 8,000 BP. Or the first and second waves of farmers brought Cannabis with them. Humans have been growing Cannabis for a long long long time. for fiber, for seed/oil, and for medicinal uses. To think that people did not figure out how to get high off of weed from the start is rather naive IMO. They figured out how to brew alcohol from the get go. Likely they brewed anything and everything and drank it.

 

[ngakpa]

it's worth remembering this thread is about Greece

the earliest archaeological (domesticated pollen etc.) evidence for cultivation of Cannabis in Greece dates to the Iron Age, post-dating the Scythians

the same goes for European cultures such as the Celts, Slavs, Romans etc. ...they all appear to have ultimately acquired the practice of Cannabis cultivation from the Scythians

anyway, just to address some of these claims, as they're very misleading:

We know that the Egyptians grew Cannabis. They left the seeds in tombs. When they started planting it we do not know.

nope, we don't know the ancient Egyptians grew Cannabis

Cannabis seeds have not been found in Egyptian tombs.... Cannabis pollen has been found in one Egyptian tomb...

historically, there's no evidence of cultivation of Cannabis in Egypt until c. 13th century, i.e. the Medieval Muslim era

the claim of possible medicinal use of Cannabis by the ancient Egyptians is based on highly speculative readings of ancient texts

They brought farming and most likley Cannabis cultivation with them then. Evidence to support this are from an archeological find of Cannabis seeds found in Romania along the Danube dating back to about 8,000 BP.

look, Cannabis already grew wild thoughout Europe at the end of the Ice Age

the climate of Europe was well-suited to it, because it was steppe and tundra... then the climate warmed and Europe reforested, which was bad news for wild Cannabis, because its habitat vanished (it is not adapted to forest, unlike its relative the hop)

re. the brazier finds from Romania (and the Caucasus):

they date to the third millennium BCE, so they aren't nearly as old as you claim

there are two more likely options than your interpretation:

1. the seeds are from wild plants - this is likely because there's no other archaeological evidence (domesticated Cannabis pollen etc.) for Cannabis culivation in this region during this era
2. Cannabis was domesticated independently at multiple sites

the option you're proposing, that Cannabis cultivation was introduced from the east at this early stage, is the least likely --- there's no evidence supporting it

Archeological evidence in Italy show that they cultivated Cannabis in Italy dating back to 6,500 BP.

no, it doesn't and no they didn't

wild/weedy Cannabis pollen can be differentiated from domesticated Cannabis pollen

until the late Iron Age, the pollen finds from Italy are all of wild-type Cannabis pollen and Humulus

the Romans, like all the other cultures of Classical-era Europe appear to have learned of Cannabis cultivation after the Scythians introduced it

 

[OregonBorn]

Well, Greece has only been modern Greece for not very long. How you can make some differentiation between it and say, the other current European states in prehistoric times is pointless. Greece simply did not exist as a nation, or a culturally distinct place even in ancient Greece. Unless you want to argue about that as well? Athens and Sparta were not one state. Greece was a bunch of small states. They were distinct. Also if you talk to anyone in Malana, India today, they will claim that they are GREEK and still part of Greece. So you can point out that this thread is about Greece, but what is the definition of Greece when it comes to Cannabis? Wide spread... Alexander went on one Hell of a war campaign. And the Greeks dispersed widely and settled all over the the entire bloody Mediterranean, as well as west and south Asia. So I would and do say that in regard to the history of Greek strains, you have to include the Mediterranean and Balkan Peninsula here. Yes, a wide area. Greece once included a very wide area.

My main point is that Cannabis was in the Mediterranean area long before ancient Greece, never mind modern Greece. I do not make the distinction of the one small area now called "Greece" to be unique in ancient times. I also do not agree with the more modern story line that these strains were brought to the Mediterranean area in recent times by the Arabs, or by the Romans, or even by the ancient Greeks. Though the Greeks and Romans and Carthaginians likely spread Cannabis strains around wherever they went. There is ample proof that the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Carthaginians had and used Cannabis. Do you want to refute that as well? I have proof. There is also ample proof that the ancient Egyptians used Cannabis. If you know where to look. They wrote it down.

historically, there's no evidence of cultivation of Cannabis in Egypt until c. 13th century, i.e. the Medieval Muslim era

Well, I differ with you on that one. They left us lots of notes on papyri. Medical cannabis recipes and remedies can be found in several ancient Egyptian medical texts such as Ramesseum III Papyrus (1700 BC), Eber’s Papyrus (1600 BC), the Berlin Papyrus (1300 BC), and the Chester Beatty VI Papyrus (1300 BC). The Ebers Papyrus specifically lists hemp as a drug to alleviate pain and inflammation. You can read the text for yourself here:

https://www.ancient-origins.net/his...-were-many-uses-cannabis-ancient-egypt-007733

In 2018 it was published that THC was identified from mummy remains dating back at least 3,000 years.

 

[OregonBorn]

And to continue...

re. the brazier finds from Romania (and the Caucasus):

they date to the third millennium BCE, so they aren't nearly as old as you claim

Dunno wat you are referring to here. Cannabis seeds (yes, seeds) were found during excavations in the region of Oneçti (site of Frumușica), in Romania, specifically going back to the Neolithic culture of Cucuteni B, from the 7th-6th millennium BC (Matasǎ, 1946, p. 39). Later dated material from Romania includes the several ceramics of a later Neolithic culture of Lengyel, dated between the 4th and the beginning of the 3rd millennium BC, which have hemp imprints (Wasylikowa et al., 1991, p. 217). So they just had plants and seeds by pure coincidence, and they did not cultivate Cannabis, but only collected it from the wild, because... you think so? And yes, the evidence is as old as I have claimed. Actually, older.

 

[ngakpa]

Well, Greece has only been modern Greece for not very long. How you can make some differentiation between it and say, the other current European states in prehistoric times is pointless. Greece simply did not exist as a nation, or a culturally distinct place even in ancient Greece. Unless you want to argue about that as well? Athens and Sparta were not one state. Greece was a bunch of small states. They were distinct. Also if you talk to anyone in Malana, India today, they will claim that they are GREEK and still part of Greece. So you can point out that this thread is about Greece, but what is the definition of Greece when it comes to Cannabis? Wide spread... Alexander went on one Hell of a war campaign. And the Greeks dispersed widely and settled all over the the entire bloody Mediterranean, as well as west and south Asia. So I would and do say that in regard to the history of Greek strains, you have to include the Mediterranean and Balkan Peninsula here. Yes, a wide area. Greece once included a very wide area.

tbf, this is kind of a non-point

the issue under discussion is when Cannabis was cultivated in the geographic region now known as Greece, and what it was cultivated for

the rest of what you're saying is contesting points I've not even made

My main point is that Cannabis was in the Mediterranean area long before ancient Greece, never mind modern Greece. I do not make the distinction of the one small area now called "Greece" to be unique in ancient times. I also do not agree with the more modern story line that these strains were brought to the Mediterranean area in recent times by the Arabs, or by the Romans, or even by the ancient Greeks. Though the Greeks and Romans and Carthaginians likely spread Cannabis strains around wherever they went. There is ample proof that the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Carthaginians had and used Cannabis. Do you want to refute that as well?

well, no, I mean I say myself that cultivation began in Greece in the Iron Age

this is what the pollen record points to, and it fits with the historical record

I have proof. There is also ample proof that the ancient Egyptians used Cannabis. If you know where to look. They wrote it down.

Well, I differ with you on that one. They left us lots of notes on papyri. Medical cannabis recipes and remedies can be found in several ancient Egyptian medical texts such as Ramesseum III Papyrus (1700 BC), Eber’s Papyrus (1600 BC), the Berlin Papyrus (1300 BC), and the Chester Beatty VI Papyrus (1300 BC). The Ebers Papyrus specifically lists hemp as a drug to alleviate pain and inflammation. You can read the text for yourself here:

https://www.ancient-origins.net/his...-were-many-uses-cannabis-ancient-egypt-007733

In 2018 it was published that THC was identified from mummy remains dating back at least 3,000 years.

as said, the case for intepreting ancient Egyptian texts as referring to Cannabis all relies on very doubtful interpretations... it's not solid proof in any way shape or form

as for the cannabinoids on one mummy - they've also found cocaine on them... in the absence of anything else to support it, it doesn't amount to much - and very definitely doesn't prove the ancient Egyptians were cultivating or consuming Cannabis

anyway, this is going way off topic now:

bottom line - the pollen record indicates that cultivation of Cannabis in Greece began c. late 1st millennium BCE, as it did in Italy etc.

 

[ngakpa]

Dunno wat you are referring to here. Cannabis seeds (yes, seeds) were found during excavations in the region of Oneçti (site of Frumușica), in Romania, specifically going back to the Neolithic culture of Cucuteni B, from the 7th-6th millennium BC (Matasǎ, 1946, p. 39). Later dated material from Romania includes the several ceramics of a later Neolithic culture of Lengyel, dated between the 4th and the beginning of the 3rd millennium BC, which have hemp imprints (Wasylikowa et al., 1991, p. 217). So they just had plants and seeds by pure coincidence, and they did not cultivate Cannabis, but only collected it from the wild, because... you think so? And yes, the evidence is as old as I have claimed. Actually, older.

only wild-type Cannabis pollen shows in the pollen record of Romania for these periods

there's insufficient solid archaeological evidence from the early Cucutenti-Tripolye culture to support the view they cultivated or even traditionally used Cannabis

in other words, if they did domesticate Cannabis, it was ephemeral

so, that's for the Neolithic... (there is no cultivated Cannabis pollen anywhere in Neolithic Europe, i.e. no indication that Cannabis has been domesitcated)

for the Copper Age Cucutenti-Tripolye, there's the one instance of seeds and the pottery impressions you mention, but there's no pollen evidence for cultivation... in other words, it's weak evidence (seeds of this age are not as solid evidence as you seem to think)

the single solid instance of cultivated pollen for this period is in fact from Bulgaria, which may be the Varna or Gulemnita cultures

but again, there's no evidence for diffusion or continuity of cultivation in this area or out of it


so we're back to the same point, which is that widespread pollen evidence for cultivation in Europe begins with the arrival of the Scythians in the late Bronze to early Iron Age...

 

[OregonBorn]

until the late Iron Age, the pollen finds from Italy are all of wild-type Cannabis pollen and Humulus

the Romans, like all the other cultures of Classical-era Europe appear to have learned of Cannabis cultivation after the Scythians introduced it

In your words, "nope." Wild and not, there are multiple finds of Cannabis growing in Italy in multiple eras. Lets start with a few Cannabis finds starting in ancient Italy going back to neolithic times. The most ancient data of the presence of Cannabis found in Italy is from Albano Lake, Rome province, dating to 11.500 BC (Mercuri et al., 2002). More was found dated 9000 BC in Monticchio Lake, Potenza Province (Huntley et al, 1996). And more Cannabis was found dating to 7000 BC. in the Lake Nemi region, and also in the province of Rome (Mercuri et al., 2002). So suffice to say that Cannabis was growing in neolithic times in Italy, yes? But that could all be wild Cannabis, which was an accepted theory until...

Cannabis pollen was found in two archeological sites from Middle Neolithic Italy dated between 4500 and 4000 BC in Le Mose and Parma. These sites belonged to the The Square Mouthed Vases culture in Northern Italy. Pollen was also found at another Italian archeological site in Forlì from the same time. All three sites showed that the farming was done in deforested areas and some of them were non wild hemp strains. At another dig site in Italy that dated to 4000 BC, hemp pollen was found in Brianza (Wick, 1996). Four sites showing hemp growing in deforested human occupied areas? All from 6000 to 6500 years ago... so still not convinced?

Moving forward, Egyptians aside, the premise of Scythians introducing Cannabis to Romans is a bit of a stretch, IMO. One would have to assume that was about or around 500 BC? Well before that, an Etruscan tomb in Cerveteri and dated to the second half of the 7th century BC, well before 500 BC. In that tomb was a vase showing the Greek myth of the Argonauts, and a line of Argonauts are depicted carrying a long sail toward their ship. Oh, the Argonauts were Greek, Yes? So it lends itself to this debate, yes? Anyway, on one side of the sail is inscribed with the word kanna, the Etruscan shorthand for the Greek word kannabis. So one would presume that by the 7th and a half century BC, the Etruscans were already using sail cloth made of hemp fiber. If they were making sail cloth from hemp, they had and were cultivating Cannabis way before that time. That is my interpretation anyway.

Also along that line of thought, a Punic ship was found and excavated off the coast of Sicily dating to 300 BC. These were Carthaginians, at constant war with Rome, who were later wiped out by the Romans. The ship held jars of hemp fibers and leaves, and on the manifest it was listed as "hashish". I find it hard to believe that Carthage, which was said to have controlled the trade of hemp into North Africa had only been introduced to it at some time after 500 BC through Rome, their arch rivals. Or even from somewhere else. Hemp had been used in Carthage from early times to seal cracks in ship hulls. And presumably to make role and sailcloth. The Mediterranean people knew this plant, and they knew it well. And way before Roman Times.

Still not convinced are we?

 

[ngakpa]

hi - you seem to have misunderstood the Mercuri paper

she provides evidence of cultivation by the Romans

the data preceding that points to Cannabis as a ruderal - i.e. a wild or weedy plant, as you'd expect in the forest clearings you mention

and about the Scythians - I suggest you read up on that if you want the dates, as they were in Europe, i.e. the Pontic Steppe, well before 500 BCE (i.e., in late Bronze to early Iron Age, as said)

 

[ngakpa]

... so still not convinced?

no

you don't seem to have got your head around the crucial point here, which is that cultivated/domesticated Cannabis pollen is reliably different from wild Cannabis pollen

the papers you're pointing to all indicate Cannabis growing as a weed e.g. on cleared land, as Mercuri herself indicates

 

[ngakpa]

The ship held jars of hemp fibers and leaves, and on the manifest it was listed as "hashish".

the earliest attested use of the word "hashish", which is Arabic, is in the form "hashishiyya" c. late 1100s CE

I see we've now gone from the millennia-old alleged Carthaginian hashish allegedly still being potent (lol), according to Peter Stafford, to it now being labelled as hashish!

 

[Water-]

In your words, "nope." Wild and not, there are multiple finds of Cannabis growing in Italy in multiple eras. Lets start with a few Cannabis finds starting in ancient Italy going back to neolithic times. The most ancient data of the presence of Cannabis found in Italy is from Albano Lake, Rome province, dating to 11.500 BC (Mercuri et al., 2002). More was found dated 9000 BC in Monticchio Lake, Potenza Province (Huntley et al, 1996). And more Cannabis was found dating to 7000 BC. in the Lake Nemi region, and also in the province of Rome (Mercuri et al., 2002). So suffice to say that Cannabis was growing in neolithic times in Italy, yes? But that could all be wild Cannabis, which was an accepted theory until...

Cannabis pollen was found in two archeological sites from Middle Neolithic Italy dated between 4500 and 4000 BC in Le Mose and Parma. These sites belonged to the The Square Mouthed Vases culture in Northern Italy. Pollen was also found at another Italian archeological site in Forlì from the same time. All three sites showed that the farming was done in deforested areas and some of them were non wild hemp strains. At another dig site in Italy that dated to 4000 BC, hemp pollen was found in Brianza (Wick, 1996). Four sites showing hemp growing in deforested human occupied areas? All from 6000 to 6500 years ago... so still not convinced?

Moving forward, Egyptians aside, the premise of Scythians introducing Cannabis to Romans is a bit of a stretch, IMO. One would have to assume that was about or around 500 BC? Well before that, an Etruscan tomb in Cerveteri and dated to the second half of the 7th century BC, well before 500 BC. In that tomb was a vase showing the Greek myth of the Argonauts, and a line of Argonauts are depicted carrying a long sail toward their ship. Oh, the Argonauts were Greek, Yes? So it lends itself to this debate, yes? Anyway, on one side of the sail is inscribed with the word kanna, the Etruscan shorthand for the Greek word kannabis. So one would presume that by the 7th and a half century BC, the Etruscans were already using sail cloth made of hemp fiber. If they were making sail cloth from hemp, they had and were cultivating Cannabis way before that time. That is my interpretation anyway.

Also along that line of thought, a Punic ship was found and excavated off the coast of Sicily dating to 300 BC. These were Carthaginians, at constant war with Rome, who were later wiped out by the Romans. The ship held jars of hemp fibers and leaves, and on the manifest it was listed as "hashish". I find it hard to believe that Carthage, which was said to have controlled the trade of hemp into North Africa had only been introduced to it at some time after 500 BC through Rome, their arch rivals. Or even from somewhere else. Hemp had been used in Carthage from early times to seal cracks in ship hulls. And presumably to make role and sailcloth. The Mediterranean people knew this plant, and they knew it well. And way before Roman Times.

Still not convinced are we?

Don't bother debating the history of cannabis with Ngakpa.

Is arrogance/ignorance way out weighs both his intellect and knowledge.
He is impervious to reason and rational thinking.



Asia and Europe were connected through trade routes thousands of years before the Romans. That is well established.

 

[OregonBorn]

so we're back to the same point, which is that widespread pollen evidence for cultivation in Europe begins with the arrival of the Scythians in the late Bronze to early Iron Age...

So your interpretation is to ignore all the evidence from Italy in the archeological sites? Even with its proximity to what is now "Greece" and references to Greek mythology? Well, these finds are not from Greece, but they are from Europe. In my version of the prehistoric Mediterranean world, trade was rampant. I do not believe that Greece was some isolated backwater cut off from the rest of Europe and North Africa and western Asia. I believe it was connected to the rest of the world by trade, and that trade was rampant going back to neolithic times. In Europe, we find evidence of hemp and Cannabis being grown and woven and eaten going way back.

For example, how about the charred hemp seeds that were found next to a skull dated around 1,700 BC in Romania? Or how about the several ceramics of the late Neolithic Danube River culture of Lengyel, dated about 3,200 BC, which have hemp imprints on them? Or how about the hemp seed prints that were found in the clay floors of a Trypolie Culture site in Ukraine, dating to 3500 BC? Or how about the find in Murcia, Spain, where a buried woman dated to about 2000 BC was covered by a hemp mat, and her head was wrapped in a bandage made hemp fiber? And how about another site near Naples, Italy where two women were found to have hemp fibers in their teeth, dating back between 2500 and 1800 BC. These finds all date well before your Scythians introducing Cannabis to the area around 500 BC.

 

[ngakpa]

I've addressed the archaeological evidence, and explained how you've misunderstood it, including your misrepresenting the studies you refer to

You're straw-manning me now, so I'm out

 

[OregonBorn]

Don't bother debating the history of cannabis with Ngakpa.

Is arrogance/ignorance way out weighs both his intellect and knowledge.
He is impervious to reason and rational thinking.

Asia and Europe were connected through trade routes thousands of years before the Romans. That is well established.

Yes, quite right. No point in arguing about this with bone heads. Their interpretations are set in stone. Bad ideas from the past set in in early literature, and copied over and over again up to Clarke's most recent work. The paradigm that the Scythians were the only Cannabis seed distributors is outdated by ample evidence to the contrary, but it pervades the literature and the thinking of many none the less. Typical in many areas of anthropological study. It is a moving target with new finds. Yet they they stay fixed on one idea, and everything else is wrong. Because it does not fit their tidy paradigms. Everything else is irrelevant.

Carry on... other things to do here. Like grow Greek Kalamata, Moroccan Rif Mountain sativa, Egyptian Sinai, Lebanese Red, and Turkish sativa. Which I have found to all be very similar, and which I believe are a much older related regional Mediterranean strains than those brought by the Scythian Johnny Cannabis Seeders.