Got a soil test done

[slownickel]

d labs.

Got Bud; If you have high organic matter it is virtually impossible to have low Boron. For my take on Boron please look here;So are you talking farming cannabis or food or both? I'm an old farmer myself and produced very good yields of cannabis by growing naturally, using a shotgun approach.

Certainly a soil test can be valuable but the ones I fo
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=339371

I even quote Slownickel at the beginning of the article.

I see you quoted many authors at the bottom of your "article" or sermon, haha.. didn't see where you quote me.??

I can also see where you got some bad information from not reading that article "Effect of Composted Organic Matter on Boron Uptake by Plants U. Yermiyahu, R. Keren, and Y. Chen ~ SOIL SCI. SOC. AM. J., VOL. 65, SEPTEMBER–OCTOBER 2001" critically.

I draw your attention to page 1437, last paragraph on the bottom left, last sentence. Here is the fatal flaw in this article.

"Mature compost (COM) produced from the solid fraction of separated straw-containing cattle manure was used in this study.The COM was leached in a column with deionized water at a solid:liquid ratio of 1:60 and then dried in an oven at 30C. Thirty mLof deionized water were added to 2 g of COMa nd shaken for 4 h; the solution was then decanted using high-speed centrifuge. Water-extractable Na, K, Mg, Cl, SO4andNO3 in the dried COM were determined. The concentration of those ions was0.05 mmol L
1. The B concentration in the extraction solution was 0.04 mmol L
1. Although the total B content in the washed COM was not determined.."
Basically they assumed away the content of the boron left over in the organic material after extracting what was water soluble! BAD SCIENCE.

I have know many "scientists" from the Volcani Institute in Israel, they tend to believe quite heavily in what is water soluble and very little on what is the content in solids.

Lots of times, simple mistakes like this assume away major issues such as not counting where all that boron came from with out it being applied. That doesn't mean that it got beamed in from Cosmic rays. I would bet quite a bit on the B unaccounted for was indeed that B left over in the OM left over from washing, not the beamed in Cosmic kind.

Thanks for chipping in, love you cosmic guys. My favorite (and is a friend) is Hugh Lovell. I could tell you some experiences with him too. His Biodynamic preparations have done wonders on soils, but he still applies his gypsum!!

Shotgun approach will work in many cases, not saying it won't.

What I am saying is that when folks have issues, the way to understand what to fix (and this is usually why these conversations originate, due to problems) is to look at ratios. If you see 20% K and 35% Mg and 40% Ca, not really any thing you can do other than to add a Ca source. I have seen organic folk get themselves in that problem many times. Surely the addition of high humic acids will surely buffer, but it doesn't stop the competition between elements.

 

[Microbeman]

I see you quoted many authors at the bottom of your "article" or sermon, haha.. didn't see where you quote me.??

I can also see where you got some bad information from not reading that article "Effect of Composted Organic Matter on Boron Uptake by Plants U. Yermiyahu, R. Keren, and Y. Chen ~ SOIL SCI. SOC. AM. J., VOL. 65, SEPTEMBER–OCTOBER 2001" critically.

I draw your attention to page 1437, last paragraph on the bottom left, last sentence. Here is the fatal flaw in this article.

"Mature compost (COM) produced from the solid fraction of separated straw-containing cattle manure was used in this study.The COM was leached in a column with deionized water at a solid:liquid ratio of 1:60 and then dried in an oven at 30C. Thirty mLof deionized water were added to 2 g of COMa nd shaken for 4 h; the solution was then decanted using high-speed centrifuge. Water-extractable Na, K, Mg, Cl, SO4andNO3 in the dried COM were determined. The concentration of those ions was0.05 mmol L
1. The B concentration in the extraction solution was 0.04 mmol L
1. Although the total B content in the washed COM was not determined.."
Basically they assumed away the content of the boron left over in the organic material after extracting what was water soluble! BAD SCIENCE.

I have know many "scientists" from the Volcani Institute in Israel, they tend to believe quite heavily in what is water soluble and very little on what is the content in solids.

Lots of times, simple mistakes like this assume away major issues such as not counting where all that boron came from with out it being applied. That doesn't mean that it got beamed in from Cosmic rays. I would bet quite a bit on the B unaccounted for was indeed that B left over in the OM left over from washing, not the beamed in Cosmic kind.

Thanks for chipping in, love you cosmic guys. My favorite (and is a friend) is Hugh Lovell. I could tell you some experiences with him too. His Biodynamic preparations have done wonders on soils, but he still applies his gypsum!!

Shotgun approach will work in many cases, not saying it won't.

What I am saying is that when folks have issues, the way to understand what to fix (and this is usually why these conversations originate, due to problems) is to look at ratios. If you see 20% K and 35% Mg and 40% Ca, not really any thing you can do other than to add a Ca source. I have seen organic folk get themselves in that problem many times. Surely the addition of high humic acids will surely buffer, but it doesn't stop the competition between elements.

I quote you in the first paragraph of the article. The enormous misunderstanding was from you; your statement; "I have only been looking into root exudates a couple of years now, but not something that I dwell on as I have good root systems."

Just think about what that conveys.

Nothing in what I said was dependent on what you pointed out in the citation.

It is accepted science that certain elements were cosmically conveyed to earth. Perhaps you need to go back to school. Here is a grade school document which explains it for you;
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/190387main_Cosmic_Elements.pdf

 

[slownickel]

I quote you in the first paragraph of the article. The enormous misunderstanding was from you; your statement; "I have only been looking into root exudates a couple of years now, but not something that I dwell on as I have good root systems."

Just think about what that conveys.

Nothing in what I said was dependent on what you pointed out in the citation.

It is accepted science that certain elements were cosmically conveyed to earth. Perhaps you need to go back to school. Here is a grade school document which explains it for you;
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/190387main_Cosmic_Elements.pdf

Oh, I get it now.

Good luck with dialing your Boron in with the Cosmic sources.

 

[Microbeman]

Oh, I get it now.

Good luck with dialing your Boron in with the Cosmic sources.

I said nothing of the kind. You only reveal your ignorance with this comment. As I stated, perhaps a return to school for the basics is in order.

 

[h.h.]

Boron when available is mobile.You’re not going to “dial” it in.

 

[Microbeman]

I received a parting shot from 'professor slownickel'; a negative rep stating 'ignorance is bliss'
I guess it was him that was butt hurt after all.

BTW we used metal pipe to get soil samples. I never sifted with the labs I used because we wished to test all components and they grind it anyway.

 

[h.h.]

I received a parting shot from 'professor slownickel'; a negative rep stating 'ignorance is bliss'
I guess it was him that was butt hurt after all.

BTW we used metal pipe to get soil samples. I never sifted with the labs I used because we wished to test all components and they grind it anyway.

I got one of those too.It’s sad when someone puts that much study into failed theories.


I actually think there is something to it. I also believe the variables are endless and far beyond a practical scope.
Plants adapt to their environment or they die. As soon as you get it “dialed in”, it changes. No 2 plants are the same.

 

[Microbeman]

Okay to be fair to Mr Nickel, I do not think that his growing methods are incorrect, although I do disagree with his preference to grow chemically. One reason for this is the yet undetected potential for plant accumulation of these residues, such as has been detected with over-assimilation of phosphorus (polonium 210) and the harm to humans ingesting (or inhaling) the plant tissue.

I do concur with the great importance of calcium (and Magnesium, etc) but do believe that in a living soil, the plant can limit/regulate nutrient uptake. This is why after growing with chemicals I graduated to a basic shotgun approach in living soil.

I also dislike organic farming - at least the certified variety, I prefer a 'do no harm' natural growing technique without some certifier telling me I cannot sell my field of herbs certified organic because we harrowed in horse, deer, elk and donkey poo from animals feeding there over winter. Once we turfed the certifiers we had no problem receiving the same payment for our 'uber-organic' or natural produce.

Not to make a SPALLASH but now on to cosmic rays. I believe that Mr Nickel may be hung up on the term as perhaps he has heard from Star Trek or wooo-wooo gardeners. In actuality it is a scientific term or explanation and current theory for the formation and conveyance to earth of several elements in the periodic table. The ones familiar to me are lithium, beryllium, and boron. As I wrote in my article, I only was trying to explain the mystery I encountered upon researching root uptake of boron. I was not prescribing a method of growing.

During this exercise I discovered that if there is a high percentage of organic matter and sufficient hydration, boron deficiency is virtually impossible. Thus my statement.

Here are some additional links concerning cosmic ray spallation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray_spallation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR9KWT5lywI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8V4ATx07uM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDSZHTpcxyY

Regarding soil testing. I'm such a skeptic on the subject that I am poorly qualified to comment. I have had some very good testing done by accredited laboratories and some terrible testing by local Ag labs.

The better results came from labs with clearly defined HPLC methods.

Now, I also believe but cannot validate that there is no testing method yet for some sequestered nutrients. Just try finding a clean definition and breakdown of humus. I can grow a cannabis plant to maturity/harvest, then grow a new rooted cutting in the same soil, nice and green for up to 2 weeks before needing to add a source of nitrogen. Why?

People often say; 'Its a proven scientific fact' There are really so few of those. We know the world is basically round, now validated by photos. We know there is gravity because we fall/stick to the ground but we do not yet really understand it. We operate on our bodies to make improvements, yet we do not fully understand its full function. There are hypotheses that the myelin sheath contains a separate nervous system; that there is another organ interconnecting our known organs. We are knocked out for surgeries and although we know that anesthetics work, we still do not know how.

Science is a never ending question.

 

[slownickel]

Sorry guys, someone is right and someone is wrong.

Should we compare acreage under management or measure the size of our garage?

I am done trying to beat a dead horse(s). I don't need to. I am trying to help.

Again, someone is right and someone is wrong. Didn't see either one of you offering to help read an analysis much less give the name of the lab to use? Much less tell them why? And the "lab that I use is $250" wow. That is stupid expensive. I guess that was to count biology? I have done biology trials with many biologicals in my farms (couple hundred acres) and all the microbe folks get their 2 trees. Guess what? NO DIFFERENCE. Why? I feed the microbes. I put on worm castings, make designer compost by feeding my king grass with all the micronutrients to compost and then feed to my worms. I make biochar from rice hulls. I apply gypsum that is loaded with silica. Feed them and they will populate. I make raised beds mechanically to maximize air space to the biology down deep.

I am an agronomist, farmer and someone that relies on real science that makes a farmers situation better. I have spent enough time answer you guys. For my farms and those of growers that I help, yield and quality are everything. One without the other is a commodity. I don't accept commodity quality. I sell candy and get a premium for everything I grow as do most of my growers. Good luck.

Sorry if I don't read all those sites about cosmic doodoo. Don't have the time.

Look out for that bad rep! I only give them out to folks that deserve it IMHO.

I will keep checking in...

 

[Lapides]

too many beers

 

[Microbeman]

Sorry guys, someone is right and someone is wrong.

Should we compare acreage under management or measure the size of our garage?

I am done trying to beat a dead horse(s). I don't need to. I am trying to help.

Again, someone is right and someone is wrong. Didn't see either one of you offering to help read an analysis much less give the name of the lab to use? Much less tell them why? And the "lab that I use is $250" wow. That is stupid expensive. I guess that was to count biology? I have done biology trials with many biologicals in my farms (couple hundred acres) and all the microbe folks get their 2 trees. Guess what? NO DIFFERENCE. Why? I feed the microbes. I put on worm castings, make designer compost by feeding my king grass with all the micronutrients to compost and then feed to my worms. I make biochar from rice hulls. I apply gypsum that is loaded with silica. Feed them and they will populate. I make raised beds mechanically to maximize air space to the biology down deep.

I am an agronomist, farmer and someone that relies on real science that makes a farmers situation better. I have spent enough time answer you guys. For my farms and those of growers that I help, yield and quality are everything. One without the other is a commodity. I don't accept commodity quality. I sell candy and get a premium for everything I grow as do most of my growers. Good luck.

Sorry if I don't read all those sites about cosmic doodoo. Don't have the time.

Look out for that bad rep! I only give them out to folks that deserve it IMHO.

I will keep checking in...

Well, I guess we can all see who cannot read.

 

[Lapides]

I got 3 pages into this thread and I am now absolutely convinced this thread is just one giant troll.


Are you guys fucking serious?


I am reading everyone's post and it seems like everyone, and i mean everyone, is just fucking with one another.


Maybe I am just completely fucking ignorant.

 

[Lapides]

I've been saying it for years now, if you need a soil test, it's because you don't understand your plants.


Plain and simple.


Your plants should be your soil test.


Pay attention. Don't pay for soil tests.

 

[h.h.]

Not trying to troll anyone.Even in the chemical world, there are variables. The idea of ratios is old science.
Not that it won’t work. You can make anything work.


Running a factory farm while doing “organic” for the money is a recipe for salmonella. This is what gives organics a bad name.

 

[h.h.]

I've been saying it for years now, if you need a soil test, it's because you don't understand your plants.


Plain and simple.


Your plants should be your soil test.


Pay attention. Don't pay for soil tests.

The best test is to plant something.

 

[h.h.]

Okay to be fair to Mr Nickel, I do not think that his growing methods are incorrect, although I do disagree with his preference to grow chemically. One reason for this is the yet undetected potential for plant accumulation of these residues, such as has been detected with over-assimilation of phosphorus (polonium 210) and the harm to humans ingesting (or inhaling) the plant tissue.

I do concur with the great importance of calcium (and Magnesium, etc) but do believe that in a living soil, the plant can limit/regulate nutrient uptake. This is why after growing with chemicals I graduated to a basic shotgun approach in living soil.

I also dislike organic farming - at least the certified variety, I prefer a 'do no harm' natural growing technique without some certifier telling me I cannot sell my field of herbs certified organic because we harrowed in horse, deer, elk and donkey poo from animals feeding there over winter. Once we turfed the certifiers we had no problem receiving the same payment for our 'uber-organic' or natural produce.

Not to make a SPALLASH but now on to cosmic rays. I believe that Mr Nickel may be hung up on the term as perhaps he has heard from Star Trek or wooo-wooo gardeners. In actuality it is a scientific term or explanation and current theory for the formation and conveyance to earth of several elements in the periodic table. The ones familiar to me are lithium, beryllium, and boron. As I wrote in my article, I only was trying to explain the mystery I encountered upon researching root uptake of boron. I was not prescribing a method of growing.

During this exercise I discovered that if there is a high percentage of organic matter and sufficient hydration, boron deficiency is virtually impossible. Thus my statement.

Here are some additional links concerning cosmic ray spallation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray_spallation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR9KWT5lywI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8V4ATx07uM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDSZHTpcxyY

Regarding soil testing. I'm such a skeptic on the subject that I am poorly qualified to comment. I have had some very good testing done by accredited laboratories and some terrible testing by local Ag labs.

The better results came from labs with clearly defined HPLC methods.

Now, I also believe but cannot validate that there is no testing method yet for some sequestered nutrients. Just try finding a clean definition and breakdown of humus. I can grow a cannabis plant to maturity/harvest, then grow a new rooted cutting in the same soil, nice and green for up to 2 weeks before needing to add a source of nitrogen. Why?

People often say; 'Its a proven scientific fact' There are really so few of those. We know the world is basically round, now validated by photos. We know there is gravity because we fall/stick to the ground but we do not yet really understand it. We operate on our bodies to make improvements, yet we do not fully understand its full function. There are hypotheses that the myelin sheath contains a separate nervous system; that there is another organ interconnecting our known organs. We are knocked out for surgeries and although we know that anesthetics work, we still do not know how.

Science is a never ending question.

Nothing is incorrect if you like spending lots of money needlessly.

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

before soil tests farmers checked the soil quality by their senses, texture and other factors, even they tasted it to tell if it was good

 

[h.h.]

before soil tests farmers checked the soil quality by their senses, texture and other factors, even they tasted it to tell if it was good

That’s how I was taught.We’d be on vacation. My dad always took the backroads. We would stop, grab handfuls of soil and examine the fields.
I was named after dirt as was my brother.
As we drove along, we’d play guess the crop. Roll our windows down when passing the stockyards. Get that rich smell of manure.

 

[GOT_BUD?]

I've been saying it for years now, if you need a soil test, it's because you don't understand your plants.


Plain and simple.


Your plants should be your soil test.


Pay attention. Don't pay for soil tests.

When you're having a hard time reading your plants, a soil test can help point you in the right direction.

In my case I now know I need to add dolomite lime for both calcium and magnesium to my top dressing. Where as before I was all over the place with trying to guess what was wrong because it looked like so many different things at once.

I'm also going to add some feather meal to my top dress because I'm seeing a bit of yellow in my larger fan leaves too early in flower. I'm at day 48, and they are noticeably yellow on 3 plants. (See? I'm reading the plants too.)

I'm not saying everyone needs to test and test religiously. But they can be helpful once you understand what they are telling you. That's why I started this thread. Because I didn't understand at the time what the test was telling me and I was having a hard time reading my plants. And as great as this place is, if you ask for opinions on what's wrong with your plants you'll get all sorts of answers with very little consensus.

I now know more about what I need than before. And that helps make me a better grower.

 

[h.h.]

When you're having a hard time reading your plants, a soil test can help point you in the right direction.

In my case I now know I need to add dolomite lime for both calcium and magnesium to my top dressing. Where as before I was all over the place with trying to guess what was wrong because it looked like so many different things at once.

I'm also going to add some feather meal to my top dress because I'm seeing a bit of yellow in my larger fan leaves too early in flower. I'm at day 48, and they are noticeably yellow on 3 plants. (See? I'm reading the plants too.)

I'm not saying everyone needs to test and test religiously. But they can be helpful once you understand what they are telling you. That's why I started this thread. Because I didn't understand at the time what the test was telling me and I was having a hard time reading my plants. And as great as this place is, if you ask for opinions on what's wrong with your plants you'll get all sorts of answers with very little consensus.

I now know more about what I need than before. And that helps make me a better grower.

There should be an app for that.
A plant reading app.


Testing is a snapshot of what’s in your soil. Most effective after doing your changes and taking another test. Then you’ll start to see what does what.
It also serves to limit shotgun approaches where excess of nitrates are quite common.
Depending on your size of operation...They’ll save you money and limit runoff.


The best argument over cal/mag ratios I’ve heard concerns texture. However that’s all going to be dependent on what’s in your soil to start with. What size is your sand? Everything.


I personally don’t care to do that much calculating. Still trying to find pi. The answer to the universe. Why the cosmos always win.


One always strives for perfection. Then in the end we do what works.
There’s a reason I gave you the original link. It deserves study.
Many things do.