'Global War On Drugs Has Failed,' Former World Leaders Say

[budlover123]

I can't wait for the day that America realizes it hasn't been #1 for a long time if ever and stops thinking it knows whats best for everyone when it clearly does not.

It appears other countries are getting wise to that, (I guess if they stop getting paid long enough...)

About Americas' prison population, I find it interesting that in 1957 a movie called "jailhouse rock" came out starring Elvis Presley that, I've never seen, but I've heard the song, and it doesn't sound like he's singing about the perpetual ass rape and gang violence which is about all that you hear of in pop culture about prison these days.

wtf is up with that, We are jailing people at record numbers, and prisons are like what again? I bet the suicide rate in America is going up too. (not that suicide is ever the right answer, people are just mislead by all this bullshit and can't stay strong enough to deal with it)

 

[Desiderata]

The DEA is a fascist organization funded by real live tyrants (harsh ruler having absolute power) within our government who lie about everything to us which mirrows todays psychopath. These people really are crazy, and live in their own worlds. They will never listen to sanity. They create insanity. Of course I hope someone with real power will take some god damn action........bastards

 

[Desiderata]

Change,.... what is real change when you have leaders like this?

The Fascists terrorize (fill with terror; coerce by threat or "violence") our lives everyday.

Excerpt:
The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism. They cultivate hate and distrust of both Britain and Russia. They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.

 

[budlover123]

I think they also rely on associating their "cultivation of disunity" with a false sense of religious/moral values while maintaining a surreal separation between what they say and reality, and will repeat over and over again from different pre-programmed talking heads.

This causes people to believe the lies in some sort of righteous, self-important way that makes it very difficult for them to deny, even in the face of glaring truth.

IE cultivating the mindset that everything not right wing biased is liberal biased while muddying the waters even further with a "fair and balanced" fox news channel.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe all conservative minds think this way, but this traditionally conservative way of thinking (there are plenty of liberals that think this way too) that runs deep in the programming of the fox news channel is the enemy of marijuana, and freedom in general (as in ally to the global drug war)

I know this discussion is about the global drug war, but isn't this more or less a disease by American corporations working with the American Federal government?

Isn't the drug war funded by uncle sam?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I can't wait for the day that America realizes it hasn't been #1 for a long time if ever and stops thinking it knows whats best for everyone when it clearly does not.

It appears other countries are getting wise to that, (I guess if they stop getting paid long enough...)

About Americas' prison population, I find it interesting that in 1957 a movie called "jailhouse rock" came out starring Elvis Presley that, I've never seen, but I've heard the song, and it doesn't sound like he's singing about the perpetual ass rape and gang violence which is about all that you hear of in pop culture about prison these days.

wtf is up with that, We are jailing people at record numbers, and prisons are like what again? I bet the suicide rate in America is going up too. (not that suicide is ever the right answer, people are just mislead by all this bullshit and can't stay strong enough to deal with it)

Go ahead and celebrate, OG. Many Americans aren't consummate flag wavers.

I'm sure you're aware your country lobbies their (and your) interests with the US. Might be a stretch to suggest your country has but a single interest. Apply that globally and complexity is the word of the day, not oversimplification.

As far as everyone's best interest, it depends what your interests are. More complexities. But I'll give you this, we assume people want to be free where "free" is always relative. Whether we do the right thing doesn't mean mistakes aren't made.

America's tough crime stance is largely a product of voters. We don't just have large prison populations, we have some real bad eggs. The ones that deserve to be in prison affected voters in ways that disparaged lesser crime sentencing.

It's not just the voters. Politicians, conferencing with their constituencies often act on voter sentiment. When judges had authority to affect sentencing, racial disparity was evident in related crime. So we voted in mandatory sentencing and that causes even more problems. Sensational news headlines keep repeat offenders on the forefront of tougher sentencing.

Two to three decades is a relatively short time to recognize where, when and how seriously we make mistakes. Voters have a tendency forget or even ignore history. They want what they want and they want it yesterday. It's up to our representatives to recognize what works vs what's merely political romance.

Then the less educated element of our electorate needs to understand that voter rage and oversimplification is no way to run a society. There's no single aspect that isn't polarized.


That said, many Americans are 100% against drugs. Despite propaganda and lies that misrepresent cannabis, I may only advocate one's right to grow. I can tell others' they're wrong but I'll never be "right" until the majority is in my corner.

The older one gets, they more they realize that black and white (right and wrong) is elusive, almost innate.

IMO, it's not so much government we have to fear. Greed and religious morality are mainlining steroids these days.

 

[budlover123]

...America's tough crime stance is largely a product of voters. We don't just have large prison populations, we have some real bad eggs. The ones that deserve to be in prison affected voters in ways that disparaged lesser crime sentencing...

Can you expand upon that?

I know the reverse is true in that Nixon should've went to prison, and his controlled substance policy puts a lot of innocent people in jail even today,

I personally believe in that whole prison population reflecting society thing, I think its oversimplifying a bit to just say America has a lot of bad eggs, many people are left with few options in the land of opportunity

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I'm no scholar but reads in the newspapers indicate that "Three Strikes You're Out" over-packs the system. Granted, some of these prisoners are career criminals and many are violent. But a fella in New Orleans just got a life sentence for his fourth weed charge.

Sorry I don't have the details but mandatory sentencing meant that the judge had no leeway in the sentencing phase.

Voters get sick of being victims of crime and demand action. Some of these actions aren't sustainable. Cali is releasing 10k prisoners a year to meet the SCOTUS ruling that they're unconstitutionally overcrowded.

$53,000 per prisoner, per year in Cali. Half the parolees violate parole for missing a meeting or failing a drug test. 90 more days in the slam at ~$26,500 per parolee.

 

[Stress_test]

REPORT OF THE GLOBAL COMMISSION ON DRUG POLICY - June 2011

REPORT OF THE GLOBAL COMMISSION ON DRUG POLICY - June 2011

I have been looking for this in the forums but couldn't find it.
Sorry if it has already been posted.

REPORT OF THE GLOBAL COMMISSION ON DRUG POLICY - June 2011

It has a lot of info, but takes a few times of reading to get a grasp on it all.

 

[Desiderata]

The "Three Strikes Your Out" laws are very scary (for me, I have two felonies from the '80's) because I have turned my life around and I'm a 'productive citizen' now or another brick in the wall. If I have one bad karma day mixed with a bad prosecutor I could be in hell real quick. My criminal history is totally non-violent. All I did was spread the "love". The jaws of fascisim are slowly turning clockwise cloaked under democracy. Most voters are just mentally blind to real justice for all.

 

[zen_trikester]

Global position on drug policy. Now on our side!!!!

Global position on drug policy. Now on our side!!!!

Here is the NORML blog post about it

I think we are going to see things happening in the next year. It seems like every day the policy makers that are proliferating this crap are being backed further and further into a corner. It is no longer just pot smokers asking them what the fuck they are doing.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

The "Three Strikes Your Out" laws are very scary (for me, I have two felonies from the '80's) because I have turned my life around and I'm a 'productive citizen' now or another brick in the wall. If I have one bad karma day mixed with a bad prosecutor I could be in hell real quick. My criminal history is totally non-violent. All I did was spread the "love". The jaws of fascisim are slowly turning clockwise cloaked under democracy. Most voters are just mentally blind to real justice for all.

Best wishes, Desiderata. I notice the icon, I hope you're not subject to draconian three-strikes bs.

I agree with most of what you say - it simply isn't black and white but then in most countries if racial disparity occurred in sentencing judges would be sacked. Then of course you can't possibly say that the 3 strikes and you're out is just non racist sentencing - the bulk of criminals serving mandatory terms being black or hispanics. What interests me is the way American's have normalised prisons but let's not forget that at least 80% of people in US prisons are there for drug related offences. The problem with democracies are the morons who are allowed to vote within that democracy - laws are made to protect the community and all drug laws do is endanger all in that community whether it be drug user or non users alike. Bottom line - who gives a crap about what some dumb ass thinks about drugs or drug laws - its up to politicians to enforce laws which protect the community and property... afterall these are the central tenants to creation of any law. No one put the bastards in there to implement laws which equate to having our homes robbed and other forms of crime as a result of the black market price of illicit drugs and to create huge wealth for organised crime.

Thanks for the perspective.

I'm not sure we statistically see individual judges flaunting racial disparity. Blatant individuals might indeed be disbarred, I just don't have example here. It's the collective statistics that show what I mentioned. It's not just the judges. Prosecutors and the system in general showed that the collective didn't apply legal standards accordingly.

Crack cocaine is one example. If I'm a non-violent crack smoker, I get 10 times the sentence of the non-violent powder cocaine user. However, crack involves exponentially greater violence to society. The violence has to be addressed, especially when innocents are coerced, wounded and killed.

I never intentionally inferred that three-strikes eliminates sentencing disparity. Three strikes combined several aspects that voters and pandering bred into what we have today. Sometimes we're fortunate enough to reference the historic pitfalls of law. In those cases, we may temper solutions to lessen or avoid the mistakes we've made (even in the spirit of progress.) Three strikes was a new baby and was not unlike the deaf leading the blind.

On the other hand, if three-strikes indeed applies across-the-board, it eliminates disparity in sentencing. However, minority disparity is still rife, pre-sentencing. That's how we retain the disparity, even with more standardized sentencing.

I for one, hate three-strikes. IMO, our judges were the last step in the process to exercise judgement. IMO, taking this aspect away turned judges into traffic cops. On the other hand, it prevents prosecutor/judge handshaking when the perp is rich or well connected. I for one don't want to see wealthy and or connected criminals buy their way out of the joint.

That's how Nixon got away with his crimes. We've had some more recent abominations but I won't wave the political flag here.

Many of those drug-related offenses are violent. We're not a country full of nuts murdering and robbing for entertainment. It's largely profit-motivated. IMO, violent drug offenders should be treated exactly like their violent brethren of other stripes. To me, a violent cannabis trafficker is a violent criminal, period.

I agree that uneducated, (or better said) voters whom don't know the issues help elect moronic representatives. IMO, editing the electorate to an intelligence or awareness standard goes against the grain of democracy. IMO, democracy is the most difficult form of government to maintain. As difficult as it is to admit, another man's freedom can and will limit the freedom of others. You know, Ben Franklin said too much freedom would harm the collective because we can't all handle it. IMO, too much freedom gets to close to anarchy in the form of monopolies and powerful interests. Anarchy? Hell yeah, they don't follow the same standard as the collective.

That's why we have elections. When one rep gets it wrong, hopefully the next one doesn't.

I'm happy we agree that laws can be bad. IMO, making hard drugs legal in the US would transform a large part of our prison pop and another segment of free society into park bench sleepers. Our homeless problem is exacerbated by hard drugs. Not to mention our protestant evangelicals would wage war against what's seen as socialist (a werdy derd in the US) intervention.

What works in Europe is often politicized in the US as moral decay. So we get economic decay instead. Not to mention a host of other problems.

In the US, evangelical religion comprises a minority of voters. But they're THE most vocal and active element of US politics. Combine the cash-saturated evangelical lobby and they're a force to be reckoned with.

No slight to evangelicals world-wide. But combining moral (religious) elements to how we deal with ethical lapse forces the collective to bear the religious consequence.

Example: religious moral implications that thwart proven, European socialistic solutions that actually work economically and societally.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Lol, America isn't in Armageddon/Rapture mode just yet. If there's one area that evangelicals aren't neck deep in is military conflict. It takes the real nuts to entertain the idea of bringing on Jeebus. IMO, even evangelicals (by and large) aren't that nutty.

Got an example of religious wars outside of Europe? You'd have to go back to the crusades. Last I checked, Bumpkin Bush Jr. merely gaffed when he uttered the word "crusade". Whatta stooge. I think he meant to infer we were engaged with terrorists killing our ass, not out-preaching us.

While I'm not religious, I personally don't feel ill toward believers. They can sure influence our domestic policy in unique and detrimental ways but they're citizens too.

So what's religion got to do with funding anti-drug efforts?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I thought I made it very clear "prohibition" funded war, not religion.

- yer a bit convoluted there, bro.

...Only problem is the stupidity in this because the US also funds its enemies through prohibition.

I get it. We start war and fund the enemy. You be on the simple side aint ya, mullray?

Religion starts wars.

Not since the crusades, bro.

You'll note the CIA turned a blind eye to heroin pouring out of Afghanistan during the Afghan/Soviet conflict - the head of the CIA is later quoted as they saw the death of American young people from overdoses as collateral damage - the cold war was more important.

I see yer peeling back lots of onion.

Now Heroin production is huge again as the Taliban fund their war with the drug trade. Oh and as for Bush and his war on terror - before every cabinet meeting they held pray sessions.

Oh no, I prayed before I took a shit. I guess that gives me shitty outlook or intent?

And really the war is about terror but that makes no sense at all.

Among other things.

The way to end terror is to stop meddling in foreign domestic policy,

I gets a feeling the situation is more comprehensive.

stop backing Israel

They're our allies.

etc.

eh?

America only became a target because of its backing of Israel

Ya think? OBL blamed setting foot on sacred ground, aka Saudi Arabia. Remember, he blew up the Khobar Towers.

- and that is more about ideology than religion.

Did ya get that from the source?

We aren't here to bag religion but you will note that it is the quasi psuedo religious holier than thou principles that drives the drug war.

I will note that you believe what you're oversimplifying.

Sin and punishment and the pleasure principle.

Ever see "Carrie"? Her mom was pretty weird.

Much like everything else religion stands for it sure aint based on science

Science would be a bit tough 2000 years ago. And the spoken word predates the earliest written forms centuries before.

- if so religion wouldn't exist at all.

Black isn't based on white. If it was, we'd have shades of gray but not necessarily gray matter.

As for Europe - exactly my point. God is dead

Are you European? Last time I checked, Europeans were like everybody else. They're either religious or they aren't. Are all the cathedrals, synagogs, mosques, etc now nightclubs?

Damn, that's a lot of dead religion going on.^^

(Nietzsche) and that's a good thing.

A little intolerant aren't we? You know the crusades were all about intolerance.

I love going to bars that are in desanctified churches that are a 1000 years old

You go, boyee!

Europe learnt from its history.

Uh... speaking of learning, remember that little pic up there?

America is now making history and will no doubt learn from it.

Well while yer at it, try again at answering my question. What do your religious oversimplifications have to do with the drug war? Try making the answer a little less convoluted. Might your answer escape the judgement of religious beliefs you suggest don't exist?

You know that atheism is a belief, right? Atheists have no more proof than religious faith. In fact, atheism is faith. It's just in another direction.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Just messing with intolerance, nothing personal. There's some pretty good questions in there, between the fun and all.

 

[mississippi]

im a proud european and i agree with DiscoBiscuit. besides, God cannot die according to my religious understanding. and yes, a lot of people over here is religious and others are non-religious... as a matter of fact, sometimes i cant even tell the difference. but you wont find fanatics and zealots here.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Lol none taken You need to travel more BTW. Europeans don't consider huge chunks of the area you posted as Europe.

Yup. And you drank in a church and God died.

Musta been one helluva night.

Russia for one or the mass of countries that used to be Russia and yes ummm don't know if you realised it but communist Russia back in the day pretty much knocked Christianity on the head- France used to be Catholic, England provo, anglican etc. You'll still find a few of the fringe lunatics but they're few and far between and dying out quickly.

The world according mullray.

Just a quick lesson in geography for someone who clearly knows little about Europe but I guess thats what happens when you need to pay for a college education (and healthcare yadayada So what you're really looking at is this minus England and a couple more countries I couldn't cut out from the map you posted.

I get it. Jokes on me.

Think EU currency and which countries use it. I know its all very confusing but ....

... you had a beer and I need a pair of scissors = God is dead.

You're not arguing with a religioso, mullray.

religion - faith

atheism - faith

When it comes to faith, perception fits in nice, neat little envelopes.

 

[mississippi]

i'd like to add, that those countries were not the part of Russia, but the part of he Soviet Union and they had there part of the dictatorship as well, some in eastern-europe more then others. like Hungary, where i live. and the soviets didn't knocked us on the head but tried to destroy the church in the regions they invaded. but christianity didn't disappear in any of these countries and in most of them it didn't even loose from its strength, more like got stronger. for example, Poland gave a pope to the catholic church, who ultimately helped destroying the Soviet Union in some way. this man was John Paul II. and if we had more popes like him, people would not loose their faith so easily. (in whatever they believe in)
many people around here visits the church regularly. (it wasnt a common habit for a very long time) and lot of them are my friends or i just know them and they are pretty decent and smart people. (and smart here doesn't necessarily mean "over-educated") they are liberals, conservatives and catholics simultaneously. and its not impossible, so it can be possible to make people behave and think the right way.

p.s.: of course "the right way" is relative, like everything else...

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Thanks for the short post Bonne nuit - it's late here. Go grab yourself some 'Freedom Fries'.

I sensed you were a bit superficial. What telepathic aspects does one require to label whole countries as they see fit.

 

[Backwoods Bud]

and its not impossible, so it can be possible to make people behave and think the right way.

Am I the only one who finds this statement very troubling?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Am I the only one who finds this statement very troubling?

IMO, not disturbing. It's a mention that folks may learn to get along or they may choose to not get along. And "right" is euphemism to getting along. Not to mention the subsequent comment:

p.s.: of course "the right way" is relative, like everything else...