genetic differnces between an IBL and S1

[Guest423]

kathmandu
i have been wondering this because there seem to be alot fo people that think plants like bubba kush MAYBE came from and is an IBL.

They were offering them a few years ago and people found lots of diffrences in each seed germed bubba is not an ibl it is a phino of a hybreed .

Like sam sed if its from a pure or ibl that expresses no diffrences in each seed then you wont see a diffrence if its a hybreeds even if its some what stable im sure you will see a lot.

thats funny...then why are all the bubba kush cuts going around that are s1's so similar? also i've never grown an ibl that all the offspring were the same...there's phenos even in ibls and landraces....look at the phenos in skunk#1, deep chunk, ect.

so since most people are making s1's from bubba kush clones that are already s1 cuts to begin with what does that do? what happens if you keep making s1's when the parent stock was an s1?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

jws0007,
Both will have the same chance of hermis if the female clone reversed can show hermis under stress. I would not use a female that shows hermis under stress.

-SamS

 

[The Slickster]

Will STS or Colc. reverse a female that would'nt ordinarily reverse under normal stressors like light stress and such? Are there females that are unreversable under any stressful normally sex reversing conditions? How about females that will not reverse under colchicine? And if a female did reverse that ordinarily would'nt with that safe or unsafe method, would that banana pollen create offspring with hermaphroditic tendencies if it were to pollinate a different non-reversable healthy female? Or perhaps maybe not as the initial reversal would have had to have been some extreme condition (STS, Colc) that no offspring would naturally meet?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Only females with hermi genes reverse sex under stress.
Yes there are females that do not reverse under stress.

If you reverse a female with STS that will not reverse sex with stress the pollen should be hermi free. You need to be sure both the pollen source (reversed female) and the female to be pollinated are hermi free if you want to make all female seed that is free of hermis.

-SamS

 

[Dalaihempy]

thats funny...then why are all the bubba kush cuts going around that are s1's so similar? also i've never grown an ibl that all the offspring were the same...there's phenos even in ibls and landraces....look at the phenos in skunk#1, deep chunk, ect.

so since most people are making s1's from bubba kush clones that are already s1 cuts to begin with what does that do? what happens if you keep making s1's when the parent stock was an s1?

Funny how so ? What your going to tell me bubba kush is a pure land race or a stable strain its A HYBREED and a selected clone from a POLYHYBREED at that prove its not.

When S1 bubba seeds were first offerd at CW the seeds grown were far from uniform .

There are phinos in landraces ? You sure about that even a worket hybreed over time can become very stable i have never grown a pure strain that showed phinos like hybreeds do the only diffrences i ever saw was 1 plant in so many may just be stronger and larger or 1 may be smaller and weeker yet they all smoket/ flowerd/tasted/ smoket the same in short uniform.

Sk1 is a hybreed as for deep chunk i havent grown it or do i know its history.

Personaly i would never use selfing to make seed way i see it your going aginst nature and we all know from history each time man goes aginst nature the resolts are never a positive one .

I rember the bubba rolling into town in CW and OG orkid i belive was his name i have heard a few say it was pre 98 clone od nothing was ever posted on the boards pre that and even orkid that past on the clone to the community and seed of the polyhybreed bubba came from had sed it was selected from hindu kush x bubble gum .

 

[Guest423]

its A HYBREED and a selected clone from a POLYHYBREED

When S1 bubba seeds were first offerd at CW the seeds grown were far from uniform .



Sk1 is a hybreed as for deep chunk i havent grown it or do i know its history.


and seed of the polyhybreed bubba came from had sed it was selected from hindu kush x bubble gum .

whats your proof it's a hybrid? it must be all that hybrid vigor it displays lol.

almost all bubba s1's are damn near identical, look around the boards or go to some grow rooms of people that grow bubba s1's or the different cuts that are all so similar....or talk to some breeders that have studied bubba....HHF comes to mind when he talks about bubba....there's quite a few others also that have done the s1 work and will tell you there isn't much for phenos....i'd bet on it being landrace, worked line or a f1 of 2 landrace or ibl indicas before i'd ever bet on it being a polyhybrid.


sk#1 is an ibl and true breeding.....same as DC and there are phenos in them.

and to say polyhybrid bubba was selected from hindu kush x bubble gum goes to show you don't know much about bubba kush.

why don't some people get some hindu kush and cross it with white label bubble gum and make a bunch more bubba kush quick?

 

[Dalaihempy]

whats your proof it's a hybrid? it must be all that hybrid vigor it displays lol.

My proof is i was there to vue this hype unfold in front of me orkid passing the clone on and seed for free and then to watch it spreed across the community and the hype that followed with it he orkid stated clearly what it was that is hindu kush x bubble gum.

I read one lay claim it was around since the 90s i researchet it back then and funny inuf nothing on the bubba before orkid had posted on it.

You prove to me its not a poly.


almost all bubba s1's are damn near identical


Well as i sed in cw bubba s1s were offerd no one that grew them out sed they the bubba s1s were stable so no offence i would belive there reports more than wats sed now.


sk#1 is an ibl and true breeding.....same as DC and there are phenos in them.

Sk1 is a hybreed may be very stable still its a hybreed as for dc as i sed i dont know much about it but if its a pure line its s1 will be uniform.

Well id use simons bubble gum personaly not white label.

Any way whats this got to do with the post topic i stated what i saw s1 bubba seeds did from growers at cw and as i sed it was far from stable.

You state theres phinos in landraces yet theres almost nil in s1 bubba come on now.

 

[cway]

Guys,

There are no things such as pure bred genetics. All of these plants are hybrids unless you go the motherland of the plant and pick up some land race genes. Everything now adays is inbred for certian qulaities. All of these elite clones are hybrids of genetics. The only way that a clone can be pure is if you grow a land race strain and never cross it and clone it.. Think about it...

 

[Guest423]

LMAO....ok dalaihempy so orgnkid created bubba kush by crossing hindu kush x bubblegum and chose a pheno to s1 and sold the seeds...no wonder there were so many phenos because bubba kush isn't hindu kush x bubblegum....hindu kush and bubble gum are average strains at best. orgnkid claimed he used white label bubblegum. so maybe if you used simons bubblegum instead you could come up with a better bubba lol?

have you grown hindu, bubblegum or the bubba cut? or do you just make your claims off what you seen at CW? why do you think there are bubba cuts dated before orgnkid started those? it was to seperate the reals from the fakes. there was bubba around before orgnkid so i don't know what else i can tell ya.

anyway i'm done talking about bubba....you think what you want or know what you think you know...and i'll do the same....nice chatting with ya.

KATHMANDU-
"i have been wondering this because there seem to be alot fo people that think plants like bubba kush MAYBE came from and is an IBL."

type in bubba kush or bubba kush s1 in the search feature and do some researching...dig deep though and actually find some threads with good info...there's good info to be found from reliable sources if you bypass the flamefest threads. also pay attention to the people that have actually grown it and not the people that just say things because thats what they heard or seen pics back in the day.

have a good one.....peace

p.s....read the first two pages of this thread http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=56819&page=1&pp=15&highlight=bubba+kush+s1

 

[Dalaihempy]

LMAO....ok dalaihempy so orgnkid created bubba kush by crossing hindu kush x bubblegum and chose a pheno to s1 and sold the seeds...no wonder there were so many phenos because bubba kush isn't hindu kush x bubblegum....hindu kush and bubble gum are average strains at best. orgnkid claimed he used white label bubblegum. so maybe if you used simons bubblegum instead you could come up with a better bubba lol?

I sed orkid was the guy that past on the bubba clone and also seed of the line bubba was found in i did not say he past on s1 seeds read what i sed.

Then the clone was past around the community and some time later s1 bubba were offerd for sale by others not orkid and there bubba s1 seeds were far from stable.

I have grown out hindu kush in the late 80s i didnt like it but no suprise as im a sativa head have bubble gum plan on trying it one day .

I know people that have the bubba clone and its not as potent as you and others make it out to be im told by many its very nice tasting mj with a desent affect but no way is it potent or any type of grail like some of you make it out to be.


anyway i'm done talking about bubba....you think what you want or know what you think you know...and i'll do the same....nice chatting with ya.

Well you have yet to prove to me its not a poly and or have you proved me rong facts are before orkid past on the clone and the seed bubba was no were to be seen in the community.

The first s1 seeds of bubba made were as stable as a 3 leged table thats fact so if its the same clone used now days why would it be less unstable.

I know a few that have grown it and infact Time2Unite i know from them wat it infact smokes like yields like if people injoy it thats all that matters but keeping things as real and honest as it gets is what realy matters.

 

[kathmandu]

dalai,
just cause a strain was first seen on the internet in 98 does not mean that is when it was created. to say that it was not around before 98 cause you never saw anything posted on the internet before that, is extremely speculative and just hearsay...very far from proof.

 

[Dalaihempy]

dalai,
just cause a strain was first seen on the internet in 98 does not mean that is when it was created. to say that it was not around before 98 cause you never saw anything posted on the internet before that, is extremely speculative and just hearsay...very far from proof.

Hi kathmandu it first showed up in 2003 the clones every one has came from orkid if its the bubba its from orkid.

Theres nothing speculative about it all i have sed is fact i rember orkid posting and i belive was made fun off as his posting was very od then he added a few pics of his grow and of the bubba and he then offerd the clone and seeds and he stated clearly what it was all i did was repeat wat he had sed so it is far from speculative .

Some time later i read some one lay claim it was arund before orkid wich is hard to belive and as i sed i researchet this as i had a big hunch on who and were this hype started from wich i will keep to my self nothing on bubba was ever posted on line before orkid agine fact.

What is also fact is the first s1 bubba seeds were sold at cbay threw cw lots did report on there findings agine not speculative but fact they got diffrent phinos being exprest in there seeds grown.

If you guys like the bubba thats great your grow but dont you feel its importent to keep things in perspective and keep it real and honest i post say bubba s1 will express a lot of verents and thats fact and Time2Unite didnt like that well heres an idear dont read my post stick your heads in the sand and belive what you like.

 

[kathmandu]

you abviously feel strongly about believing that orgnkid created bubba from bubblegum crossed with hindu kush and thats fine with me, but i think most people here would disagree with you. if you want to debate it, there is another thread on that subject, you alright with that? here ya go....
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=44491&page=6&pp=15

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I disagree, anything can be made to bred true, if that is what you mean. Just self it for 3 or 4 generations and it will be homozygous or close to it.
But you may not be able to conserve every trait you want, of every hybrid, but they can be made 100% consistant and true breeding if homozygous.

-SamS

 

[Dalaihempy]

i have been wondering this because there seem to be alot fo people that think plants like bubba kush MAYBE came from and is an IBL.

kathmandu you asket this question i told you s1 bubba seeds were nothing like the clone mum there were diffrent phinos being exprest thats fact you would think if it was from an in breed line there would be seed offerd not just s1 seed and if it was from a inbreed line the s1 would be stable correct.


It dont matter realy what the bubba is but the point is the bubba s1 seeds are not uniform thats realy the answear you wanted or did i read it rong.

Bubba kush is not a inbreed line or is it a landrace if it was ethir of them the s1 seed would be uniform or like sam sed homozygous or close to it.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings kathmandu

i have a simple question maybe someone with breeding experience can answer....kathmandu

Sometimes it is the simple questions that possess the most beautifully complexed answers; I will attempt to keep my response simple, as well.

lets say you have an IBL. when you cross the males and females of the IBL, the offspring should be pretty much all similar, right, cause its an IBL....kathmandu

IBL (inbred line) simply means no additional/outside genetic material is introduced into the breeding population for at least five (5) generations. IBL is not synonymous with 'true breeding'; some lines are 'stable', and show little variation (Homozygous for phenotypic traits being assessed); some lines display tremendous variation between siblings ('unstable', heterozygous or imperfect dominance for traits assessed); both would be classified as an IBL if the single stipulated criterion was met.

The term IBL can be accurately used to describe one to one successional filial breeding; it is often less accurately used to describe open pollination within a closed breeding population. The former case limits variation (leads to 'stability'); the latter preserves genetic variation.

So, it is easy to see the potential for confusion.

So how would the offspring differ when, from the same IBL strain as above you take a female but this time reverse its sex, to create a male, then use that pollen to pollinate another female from the same IBL....kathmandu

The degree of difference would depend on the specific genetic make up of the specimens being crossed. The above described scenario is a filial cross, it doesn't matter if the two specimens crossed are 'male' X 'female' or 'female' X 'female', the occurrence of possible variance would be similar if the genotypes are similar.

Note: Casually a 'female' X 'female' pairing would appear to show less variance because of the exclusion of the 'male' chromosome. Statistically, it would be considered similar because it is the possible or potential expressions that are being compared.

Note: {Theoretically} The degree of variance expressed would be significantly less if the filial generation was the result of self-pollination rather than cross-pollination. Theory is supposed due to the unlikely possibility that siblings within a filial generation could share identical genotype. In this case the degree of variance expressed in the ensuing generation would be the same because in essence the cross-pollination would be self-pollination.

if you grew these seeds out would they be the exact same as the other normal IBL's or would they maybe have mutations or lack certain genetics, resulting in different growth, smell, thc, etc?....kathmandu

The variance expressed in the offspring would be "the exact same" only if the proposed 'parents' possessed 'the exact same' genotypes. However, it can be stated that statistically, possible variance resulting from a 'male' X 'female' pairing should be similar to the variance expressed by the offspring of a 'female' X 'female' pairing if within the same IBL population.

Note: If growing out seed in small batches...say, fifty (50) at a time, a cultivator (in theory) will experience all the 'female' variance an IBL has to offer more efficiently if only 'female' X 'female' pairings are utilized.

i have been wondering this because there seem to be alot of people that think plants like bubba kush MAYBE came from and is an IBL....kathmandu

It is very likely that a selection process was employed to produce Bubba Kush.
If one was to apply the above stated definition of IBL, it is unlikely that Bubba Kush satisfies the requisite condition.

Note: Hybrid and IBL are not mutually exclusive terms. One could (incorrectly) argue that specimens cease to be hybrids once the process of inbreeding occurs, however, it would still be accurate to state that the genetic material of the population is derived from P1 of differing genetic lines.

On the other hand, a specimen cannot be 'clone only' and an IBL; 'clone only' denotes a specific genotype, an IBL is a population. You can however, create an IBL from a 'clone only' specimen, even if the resulting population consists of only 'females'.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. An aside: The term stress has two main biological definitions...

1) Stress is total sum of an organisms' reactions (observable or not) to any adverse stimulus {natural or unnatural, internal or external, physical or chemical} that creates an imbalance in homeostasis or manifests in a condition that is abnormal.

2) Stress is the umbrella term given to the stimuli that elicit a response.

Stress (second listed definition) will cause stress (first listed definition) in 'female' Cannabis plants resulting in the formation of 'male' flowers and pollen. All 'female' Cannabis plants respond to stress (sld); the amount of stress (sld) required is the variable.

'Females' that do not easily respond to stress (sld) are not naturally common and must be selected for.

Silver Thiosulphate (STS) is a stress (sld) to 'female' Cannabis plants because it causes stress (fld).

C.X.

 

[Guest423]

lol dalia your posts about bubba are so whack i can't even stay away, i can't stand misinformation.....your resources are whack, your dates are whack. you haven't even grown bubba.

it showed up in 2003 and everyone that has the bubba it came from orgnkid lmao...i almost spit chocolate milk on my moniter i was laughing so hard.

i'd rather listen to people that have grown a real bubba cut, s1's from a real bubba cut, crosses made with a real bubba cut, talk about it from my own experiences and from what i've seen and done. if orgnkids bubba s1's were far from stable and had many many phenos like you claim he used a whack cut or a whack cross.

it's funny zamalito and hothouseflowers and their crew who actually breed and grow landraces and ibls pretty much say the sames things i've been saying about bubba since the beginning. lets see what some more experienced people have to say about bubba shall we?




hothouseflowers said -


Hola Chikskilz,

Well 'Humito' has worked with the Bubba line a lot and we will get you a brief grow guide for later today. Best I ask him to write that as he has worked with the plant a lot, indoor and out. From what I understand root space is key to yields with this one, also have a look around at the other growers of the Bubba as the S1's react very much the same as the clone. There is very little variation in the line

Peace, hhf

Zamalito said- I got a response from humito. He says there really is pretty much one pheno. Now of course with any seedline you will get some slight variation in flavor resin and yield but not enough to really designate different phenos. They all are pretty much like the cut except each with its own slight differences. Sorry its not much of an answer but at the same time it is good news, eh?

Zam said- The fact that it is so true breeding definitely adds to the mystery of the origins of bubba kush. Either it was just an insanely rare heavily homozygous f1 or f2 or someone put some serious work into it.

HHF said- Definitely Z, from the S1's i sprouted to test them there extremely homozygous to the point that it looks very much like a IBL to me.

Peace, hhf

Zam said- Also to those who asked we used the pre-98 cutting for making the s1's we sell.

maybe the difference is they used a real bubba cut? there's cuts dated pre98 and pre2k1 for a reason......where does 2003 fit in?

 

[kathmandu]

dalai the main purpose of this thread is about breeding, reversing females, and self pollination. it was not to discuss who and when bubba was created.
i think you would find the thread, which i linked above, very informative.

 

[Guest423]

dalai the main purpose of this thread is about breeding, reversing females, and self pollination.

ok back on topic

can anyone explain how to use collidal silver for reversing? do u use it alone or do u mix anything with it? how much do u use? i would like to try this method.

lets say you have 2 clone only strains and want to reverse one of them to pollinate the other. does it matter which one u choose to reverse? are any traits more likely to be passed on to the next generation of the clone u want if u reverse that one or keep that one female?

for example cheese x bubba or bubba x cheese......would bubba be more dominate in the cross or cheese be more dominant depending on which was the donar of pollen? or any elite x elite that one is just an example.

alot of breeders are starting to aim their projects at elite x elite by reversing but is there any method to their madness on which elite to choose for the one to reverse and the one to keep as the normal female? without even testing.

also, when u cross an elite x elite but 2 different strains by reversal is the next generation an F1 or ?

cheese x cheese would be an s1 but what would u call bubba x cheese?

terms get throwin around here like mad and i see people using different terms for the same thing so just tryin to set the record straight.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings Time2Unite

This thread managed to pique my interest; so for the sake of said interest I shall attempt to further disseminate pertinent information in the point-response form.

can anyone explain how to use collidal silver for reversing? do u use it alone or do u mix anything with it? how much do u use?....Time2Unite

Technically a colloid is defined as bonded atomic particles held in liquid suspension without the formation of an ionic or dissolved solution, but ‘Colloidal Silver’ has become an umbrella term. The designate of Colloidal Silver now include solutions that contain Silver colloids, or ionic Silver- its compounds or its proteins and distilled water. Therefore, the concentration of the Silver differs dramatically among products; trial and error and a PPM meter is recommended.

Lower PPM solutions can be applied to the rhizosphere; higher concentrations are best utilized via foliar application. The resistance of the specimen being stressed dictates the concentration of Silver needed to elicit the desired response.

To boost efficacy Colloidal Silver can be combined with Acetylsalicylic Acid (Aspirin) and applied through the roots or the leaves. Again the concentrations needed are dependant on the plant's genotype.

lets say you have 2 clone only strains and want to reverse one of them to pollinate the other. does it matter which one u choose to reverse?....Time2Unite

No.

are any traits more likely to be passed on to the next generation of the clone u want if u reverse that one or keep that one female?....Time2Unite

No.

Genetic inheritance is solely dependant on gene recombination. (Simply) Homozygous or heterozygous, dominant or recessive alleles dictate which genotypic and derivatively, which phenotypic traits are passed to and expressed by the next generation. Whether or not the 'female' plant is reversed, the genotype remains the same; so the genetic material passed remains the same, as well.

for example cheese x bubba or bubba x cheese......would bubba be more dominate in the cross or cheese be more dominant depending on which was the donar of pollen? or any elite x elite that one is just an example....Time2Unite

No.

The dominance of any specimen is rooted in its genotype. One would expect the dominant specimen to pass the majority of the phenotypic traits expressed to a statistically determined percentage of the offspring, with another percentage still retaining the recessive traits and the possibility of imperfect dominance of the other specimen.

Bear in mind also, that one parent may be homozygous dominant for a specific trait and the other parent homozygous dominant for another; in this instance both traits will be inherited and expressed by the offspring.

The only way to truly ascertain genotype is to genetically map. A much relied upon (close) substitution is to make observations based on progeny tests.

alot of breeders are starting to aim their projects at elite x elite by reversing but is there any method to their madness on which elite to choose for the one to reverse and the one to keep as the normal female? without even testing....Time2Unite

No, there isn't any method; as already stated it doesn't matter. The art of breeding comes into play when choosing which "elite" should be paired with which. Without testing, this is where intuition is introduced.

also, when u cross an elite x elite but 2 different strains by reversal is the next generation an F1 or ?...Time2Unite

Colloquially...yes. Scientifically it depends on exactly how different the "strains" are from each other. For example: An Afghan elite X Thai elite is definitively F1. A Cheese elite X The Pure elite can for the purposes here be referred to as F1, but more accurately it is some other (unknowable) designation within the Skunk IBL population.

cheese x cheese would be an s1 but what would u call bubba x cheese?....Time2Unite

Cheese X Cheese would be an S1 if it was self-pollinated. The S1 offspring of Cheese would be Cheese; so if the clone form was to be crossed with one of the S1, it would be termed a BX1; if two S1 Cheese specimens were to be crossed then the resulting progeny would be deemed F2. Of course you would have to declare the Cheese clone to be the P1 for the other designations to fall into place.

An aside: A specimen can be both a F(?) and a P1. The designation is simply a way to track genetic progression in a studied population.

Note: S1 is a colloquialism; the true designation is F1. There is no difference between self-pollination and cross-pollination as far as the filial generation's designation is concerned.

The offspring of Bubba Kush X Cheese could be deemed F1.

terms get throwin around here like mad and i see people using different terms for the same thing so just tryin to set the record straight....Time2Unite

There's an old saying: a little something can be a dangerous thing; in this instance, a little science.

Terms do get thrown around but if this forum, as we are wont to espouse, is a source of information and the sorting out of ideas, then it is good that they get thrown around here so that perhaps a person, with a more complete understanding of any given topic, is afforded the opportunity to address the inconsistent.

Sincerely,
Charles.