Fridge Motor Air Pump

[Ca++]

I wonder how many people have blown themselves up with electrolysis. Each plate makes either hydrogen or oxygen (if you get it right) but the two should be kept apart. Not allowed to fill a tank. If you don't get it right, all manner of other gases can be made. Pretty much dependent on the salts, that must be present for conductivity.
I think I know enough to know I don't know enough. Things like coco salt, making chlorine gas not oxygen. So making chlorides with our metals. That stuff is beyond what I know.

The vortex thing and the zeolite sieve are interesting. Perhaps only academically to me though, as I'm really about low noise. I could manage a fridge compressor, if an EC one on my own control gear. No real high power stuff though. Just a piston like air pump, to meet the demands of difficult air stones.

Thanks for the input. I'm sure it interests others also. I know how long a short post can take sometimes, and it's longer than we care to admit Nice job!

 

[Drop That Sound]

You can separate the hydrogen and oxygen using a membrane in between the cells, placed inside of an extra container, but then it actually becomes even more dangerous as the 2 separate streams of gas are even more pure and volatile than then when mixed together through the one cell.. aka HHO browns gas. If you could vent the pure hydrogen output line outside somewhere, and only keep the pure o2 line side for mixing in the res, it might be better? I never got that far as to try it that way.
Nothing is stored in tanks, and the same tech is marketed by "o2 grow" as an on demand system that doesn't create enough gas to cause concern.. It barely outputs anything actually, and doesn't need a lot of power to supply the amount of DO you need for hydro. No where near enough to turn a room into a bomb.

Technically, using HHO emitters for hydroponics is even safer than entering a home where people are using the medical concentrators that pump out o2 by the liters.. They are usually required to post a warning sign not to smoke on the doors of houses where the oxygen machines are in use.


I do also worry about the by products of the cells breaking down, and creating a toxic soup by reacting with the chlorine and other nutrient salts in the mix, etc.. but.. I've heard it actually wards off root pathogens and other pests by having the little bit of gas in your res, lol.

The last HHO cell I made(years ago now), I used a stack of stainless steel receptical light switch plate covers, and had to flash heat/freeze them to get rid of the magnetism from being machined first to make it work right. I was powering lawn mowers with water and car batteries, etc.

 

[Ca++]

As each gas comes off a different plate, the plates can be vertical, and create two streams of gas bubbles. This could simplify the task of keeping them apart.
This would be in my tank though, and my tank has a lid on it. By default, I'm filling a tank with an explosive mix. To even contemplate this, I would need extract, with pressure sensing, to ensure it works.
An o2 generator isn't that expensive now. There are countless options for electrolysis, but if you feed a compressor with a hydrogen oxygen mix, you are making an unstable bomb. The pressure part is a big issue. You could scrap the pressure idea, and just go oxygen aeration, or scrap the oxygen and just go with microbubbles. Logic suggests the microbubbles have so much more contact area, and hope of staying in solution, that the normal sized oxygen bubbles, wouldn't be as effective.
Ultimately, we have to look at power consumption. At a home grown level, a 500w load needs to produce half a Kg, just for a gram per watt. The portable o2 concentrator sounds interesting, to get them watts into the small numbers. While I believe it's the nanobubbles that have actually found commercial application.

 

[Ca++]

The O2 Grow system is looking like it doesn't work. $400 for something China could make for $4, but have not bothered. I don't actually trust them, to know what they are doing. Suggestions like hanging the control unit, with a fan on it, are not what you expect. At $400 they could buy a better box with a fan in it. This product is no Ferrari. It's not even TingTong.
I moved to the university research page, where 3 video's are offered. Each a different grower, saying they were doing a study, but had no results yet. No results yet? Why are these video's even being offered.
There is a fabric bag pot grower making some claims like no other, but results far from the norm, are best filtered out. 50% reduction in feed requirements, to gain 25% in output. He may of fixed his grow, but was it with a little oxygen?

I think with the simplicity of this, it's probably been tried a lot of times. I have not personally seen benefit, even from air stones. It's just nice to have one. Though h2o2 works, and might be cheaper, when you see the run time on these is 18 months of 3 hours a day.

As much as I want some of these techs to be good, there is nothing really getting my attention. Even though I might have the parts already.

 

[Ca++]

Does anyone have a DO meter? Test strips perhaps?
I'm thinking about oxygen depletion, as my water stands.
I know temperature dictates how much oxygen water can hold, but the time part of that is on my mind.
I have long known a fresh tank is the best tank, in just about every situation I have found myself in. Recently I have been using a pump that cavitates if the water has not stood. I can't actually pump a fresh tank. 6 hours later, I have to keep pausing to clear the bubble. Only a tank stood for a day can be pumped easily. It's warmed in that time. Enough to have bubbles stuck to the walls. However, it's not warmed that much. This depletion of oxygen takes a while I think. As the oxygen becomes free, it's probably nanobubbles. These need to form microbubbles, then visible bubbles, before they actually leave the water. So while temp says the oxygen has gone, it's not entirely true yet.

It would be interesting to monitor a bucket as it warmed to room temp, then stood for a bit. To see how much oxygen we really do loose. Not just the mathematical dissolved figure, but the bubbles that are useful, to.


It's surprising to find a pump that can tell me how long the water has stood. I have seen it before though, where h2o2 couldn't be used. So while my eyes are not aware of how 'flat' my water is getting, the pump is going from unusable to very good. So I know a lot is going on.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Afaik highest DO can be achieved by an airlift vortex, like the ones used for compost tea.

 

[Absorber]

What about something like this it moves 2.2ltrs a minute of air and can inflate aswell as being used for vacuum applications.
Just found this amazing item on AliExpress. Check it out!
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[Nannymouse]

Just brainstorming, here. I know very little about air pumps and gizmos. But, i do recall a time when an art instructor was having problems with a compressor for her air brush, the noise plus the uneven pressures. The answer was using scuba diver pressure tanks. I don't know if this applies in any way, or if it could put a new perspective on the discussion, just tossing it out there.

 

[Ca++]

What about something like this it moves 2.2ltrs a minute of air and can inflate aswell as being used for vacuum applications.
Just found this amazing item on AliExpress. Check it out!
AU$89.19 | PENGPU 2.2L/Min Diaphragm Pump DC Brushless -75KPa Negative Pressure Vacuum Oilless VOC Gas-sample analysis

PENGPU 2.2L/Min Diaphragm Pump DC Brushless -75KPa Negative Pressure Vacuum Oilless VOC Gas-sample analysis - AliExpress 13

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Most air pumps we use are the diaphragm type. They give a strong vibration, but good pressure.

 

[Ca++]

Just brainstorming, here. I know very little about air pumps and gizmos. But, i do recall a time when an art instructor was having problems with a compressor for her air brush, the noise plus the uneven pressures. The answer was using scuba diver pressure tanks. I don't know if this applies in any way, or if it could put a new perspective on the discussion, just tossing it out there.

Yes I smooth the airflow between pump and stones with what you might call a pneumatic damper. My air use places a very steady demand on the pump, so I don't need a reservoir as big as tanks to even out air volume demand peaks. Such as air gun use. Which can drain a tank to nothing if the kits a bad combination. Such as too many or to big a gun for the compressor. I'm able to just use a liter plastic bottle, and silicone hose, not pvc. My use of soft materials (rather than hard tanks) allows for a lot of the pulsing to be lost, without such a great air volume. It's difficult for the pump to send pneumatic pulses through soft pipework.
I can rest my airstones on the bottom of plastic barrels, without getting vibration transmitted from the pump, using this soft approach. I just get the noise of bubbles breaking the surface. No tank vibration. Though the pump is still as loud as ever

 

[Ca++]

I stood over my car tyre pump, watching it dance all over the ground, making a right noise. It seems they to have the same design idea. Taking a small pump, and thrashing the life out of it. Rather than a big pump, that could move slower.

We could take a foot pump as our large item. Then use a geared motor to turn a slow crank, to move the rod(s) back n forth at a leisurely rate, that didn't mimic a woodpecker on roids.

Maybe I should look towards gear pumps. They are usually fluid though. Not air.
Our air pumps great advantage, is that they don't really need lubrication. There isn't even a motor. Perhaps it's mostly right, but needs scaling up. To slow it down. Same magnetic based drive, but electronically commutated (ec) so it's not so violent.

One day..

 

[Absorber]

I stood over my car tyre pump, watching it dance all over the ground, making a right noise. It seems they to have the same design idea. Taking a small pump, and thrashing the life out of it. Rather than a big pump, that could move slower.

We could take a foot pump as our large item. Then use a geared motor to turn a slow crank, to move the rod(s) back n forth at a leisurely rate, that didn't mimic a woodpecker on roids.

Maybe I should look towards gear pumps. They are usually fluid though. Not air.
Our air pumps great advantage, is that they don't really need lubrication. There isn't even a motor. Perhaps it's mostly right, but needs scaling up. To slow it down. Same magnetic based drive, but electronically commutated (ec) so it's not so violent.

One day..

Make a sound cancellation unit
Microphone picking up noise flip noise 180° and feed the inverted noise back out a speaker therefore technically cancelling said noise.

 

[growshopfrank]

I stood over my car tyre pump, watching it dance all over the ground, making a right noise. It seems they to have the same design idea. Taking a small pump, and thrashing the life out of it. Rather than a big pump, that could move slower.

We could take a foot pump as our large item. Then use a geared motor to turn a slow crank, to move the rod(s) back n forth at a leisurely rate, that didn't mimic a woodpecker on roids.

Maybe I should look towards gear pumps. They are usually fluid though. Not air.
Our air pumps great advantage, is that they don't really need lubrication. There isn't even a motor. Perhaps it's mostly right, but needs scaling up. To slow it down. Same magnetic based drive, but electronically commutated (ec) so it's not so violent.

One day..

See post #26 in this thread, solid advise IMO.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Get an air pump for koi ponds. They are powerful, meant to run 24/7, cheap and relatively quiet. Completely quiet is not possible as the bubbles always make noise.

The go to brand is Hailea V-10 (or V-20 etc.). They might be rebranded by now but it's still solid.

 

[growshopfrank]

Get an air pump for koi ponds. They are powerful, meant to run 24/7, cheap and relatively quiet. Completely quiet is not possible as the bubbles always make noise.

The go to brand is Hailea V-10 (or V-20 etc.). They might be rebranded by now but it's still solid.

A easy way to attenuate the air pump noise is putting it in a styrofoam cooler with some holes punched in it.

 

[JKD]

Hygger make <30 dB air pumps. Small though.

 

[Ca++]

Get an air pump for koi ponds. They are powerful, meant to run 24/7, cheap and relatively quiet. Completely quiet is not possible as the bubbles always make noise.

The go to brand is Hailea V-10 (or V-20 etc.). They might be rebranded by now but it's still solid.

The bursting bubbles is a hiss I can accept. That sort of noise doesn't have the energy to make it through building structures. The noises I don't want, come from the 50/60hz vibrators, used to flex the diaphragm. Vibrators, being literal, not an insult. So it's no surprise that us using a vibrator, causes vibration problems. I have had some low noise ones picked from reviews and data sheets, but these don't address the vibration that carries much further than they stood with a mic. The inline air tank just spoke of, is an absolute must. Then I have to suspend the pump with (partially extended) elastic. That isolates the vibrator tech, from the building. The actual noise of the pump just sat in my hand, isn't a problem at all. So I'm not chasing quite pumps now, or boxing them. That noise doesn't go anywhere. Though I still do like to box them for a full metal jacket response. Then suspend the box.

I will probably end up doing just that, many times. It's all I got. I know the rotary compressor, with EC control, will champion this one day though. It looks like condenser driers will be first on the scrap heap with them on offer.

 

[growshopfrank]

A air curtain aerator is lower noise than regular air stones.

 

[Drop That Sound]

I just got a wild idea. Why not put mini submersible air pumps right inside the air stones\diffusers, and pull intake air down into it from the tube like a snorkel, instead of the other way around and pumping it in.. Toss it right in the res, or one in each hydro container, etc. Being in the nutrient solution would really quiet it down, but probably heat it up more too.

 

[420PyRoS]

Compressor fed from garage, to a large 200 - 2000 Gallon accumulator/air pig, regulated out, to oil separator, to air dryer, to regulated air manifold and out to whatever youre doing.

Just gotta deal with the odd compressor cycle turning on to fill air pig.

Sandpiper style diaphram pumps do good volume as opposed to pressure.

Piston style multi stage good for pressure.

screw type good for pressure/volume.

Otherwise you gotta make an enclosure and vibration dampening for those air pumps etc. Prob need cooling also.