For those TRAITORS who think cannabis should be taxed

[ForestBuds]

Where do people come up with this horsesh!t?

I found it on a web page... I thought it would be benefit to all people on this forum. Keep an open mind and exercise your rights. There are lots of other information on the issue of citizen rights. It is up to you to filter out the bullshit out there and decide on what you feel is right.

Another recent read article... I didn't read it all but this writer has pretty sum up the condition that USA is in right now.

http://www.rense.com/general87/seven.htm

 

[ColBatGuano]

I found it on a web page... I thought it would be benefit to all people on this forum. Keep an open mind and exercise your rights. There are lots of other information on the issue of citizen rights. It is up to you to filter out the bullshit out there and decide on what you feel is right.

Another recent read article... I didn't read it all but this writer has pretty sum up the condition that USA is in right now.

http://www.rense.com/general87/seven.htm

You found it on the website of a late-night talk-radio conspiracy theorist known to bring on some outlandish character-types, like anti-Semites, UFO-logists, people who claim you don't have to pay taxes, and people who think 9/11 was an inside job. Maybe if you would have actually read all of it, you would be able to be more skeptical of it.

The situation isn't so dire it cannot recover. Devalued currency is a condition in recessions. It has happened before. It will happen again. Probably a few more times during my lifetime. In-between we will prosper as a nation. Steady growth should always trump short-term quarterly gains. These things take time to sort out.

Perhaps if many of us spent less time trying to overthrow the government, and more time making goods and services our country can sell to others, we would be getting closer to evening-out that dollar-to-euro gap.

 

[dc2bar]

I am NOT a laywer and this does NOT constitute legal advice in any way, shape or form. It's simply a discussion.

I believe the problem is the stringent classifications of what a medicine is under the tax code that causes MMJ to be taxed.

According to the BOE, a tax exempt medicine must:
Qualify as a medicine
and
Be sold by an approved source.

The latter would be the easy part, it's the former that is causing us all this headache.

Regulation 1591 defines qualifying medicine as, in part, "any drug or biologic, when such are approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to diagnose, cure, mitigate, treat, or prevent any disease, illness, or medical condition regardless of ultimate use." It's the FDA part that's throwing a wrench into things, and until the FDA approves MMJ it will, by law, have to be taxed.

EDIT: actually, that's not true. Seems like MMJ might qualify under (a)(9)(B)

Same is why all the herbal medicines you purchase at vitamin shoppes or holistic healing centers are taxed. The loophole that some use is to sell the raw herbs as food, which carries no tax. This would be fantastic if we could apply it, as our medicine is pretty much always in its raw form; tinctures, balms, and baked goods notwithstanding. I am not sure that this would work for MMJ, though, as the text of prop 215 explicitly states "...seriously ill Californians have the right to obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes..." My thinking is that in order to comply in full with 215, it would need to be classified as an herbal medicine, thus eliminating the food exemption. I am NOT a tax lawyer, or any lawyer for that matter, though, so it may be worth looking into.

I repeat, I am NOT a lawyer and this does NOT constitute legal advice in any way, shape or form. It's simply a discussion.

 

[jwm]

Tony and rezdog are right on w/ this one...When you see MJ legal, you'll see it taxed, heavily!

 

[ColBatGuano]

I am NOT a laywer and this does NOT constitute legal advice in any way, shape or form. It's simply a discussion.

I believe the problem is the stringent classifications of what a medicine is under the tax code that causes MMJ to be taxed.

According to the BOE, a tax exempt medicine must:
Qualify as a medicine
and
Be sold by an approved source.

The latter would be the easy part, it's the former that is causing us all this headache.

Regulation 1591 defines qualifying medicine as, in part, "any drug or biologic, when such are approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to diagnose, cure, mitigate, treat, or prevent any disease, illness, or medical condition regardless of ultimate use." It's the FDA part that's throwing a wrench into things, and until the FDA approves MMJ it will, by law, have to be taxed.

Same is why all the herbal medicines you purchase at vitamin shoppes or holistic healing centers are taxed. The loophole that some use is to sell the raw herbs as food, which carries no tax. This would be fantastic if we could apply it, as our medicine is pretty much always in its raw form; tinctures, balms, and baked goods notwithstanding. I am not sure that this would work for MMJ, though, as the text of prop 215 explicitly states "...seriously ill Californians have the right to obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes..." My thinking is that in order to comply in full with 215, it would need to be classified as an herbal medicine, thus eliminating the food exemption. I am NOT a tax lawyer, or any lawyer for that matter, though, so it may be worth looking into.

I repeat, I am NOT a lawyer and this does NOT constitute legal advice in any way, shape or form. It's simply a discussion.

This does seem reasonable to me, though I am not a lawyer, either. I have read this entire thread, and agree, or empathize with the principles of both sides. For me, I think a grower's tax is a bad idea unless that grower sells his product for a profit. If just growing, whether for personal use, or for trade to a non-profit dispensing apparatus, it should no more be taxed than should my 80-year-old neighbor who comes by every so often with free tomatoes and zucchinis from his garden.

If you grow or dispense under a fully for-profit venture, then perhaps you should pay taxes to work in that system. There is a reason there are two systems. Also, although I would never want to denigrate either Jack Herer or Dennis Peron, I am realistic in my belief that they used the medical argument as a first-step towards full legalization, simply because they liked getting high on pot. Everything after that is where they developed the compassion arguments with which we all agree. The medicine argument is a fine one to make, and compassion for the sick is nearly universal, but neither of them would have ever really thought about it had they not liked getting stoned first.

 

[xlatit]

I love how a 50 dollar tax on an ounce is making people flip their shit. Given the average cost of an ounce today is around 300 dollars, they would assume there would be a 350 dollar price tag on their precious buds. If it was semi-legit then the ounce would probably be driven down by markets to costing around 150-200 on the street. Add 50 dollars to that and do the math.

 

[mrdizzle]

R.I.P Jack, I feel what jack is saying, people pay enough in taxes, dont shaun pot for 80yrs lockin peoples lifes away and then because were broke now try to get their cut? pretty fucked up if you step back and think about it

but sometime to enjoy life better, you have to yeild to the way curtain things in life are. If its legal and taxed or if its illegal and untax, they each come with there own set of things to complain about. I'llth accept either one, and play those cards rather than want it only my way, all the time. haha because it isnt going to be legal and untaxed, this we all know.

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

R.I.P Jack,.

He isn't dead yet. Infact Jah probably is going to make sure he lives to prove all the naysayers about taxation wrong.

Paul Stanford
Update via Mark Herer, Jack's son, Sun, Sept. 20, Noon: Jack Herer has been out of the medically-induced coma to save his brain since Saturday. His eyes have opened momentarily several times. He is yawning incessantly. The drugs Jack was given t...o induce the coma have a half life of 72 hours, so he is still coming off those. His heart and body appear strong. Tomorrow they have scheduled EEG tests to measure brain activity. Keep the prayers and/or postive energy and thoughts focused on Jack's recovery. Here is a photo of Jack with NORML Exec. Director Allen St. Pierre sharing a bag of cannabis vapor on Sept. 11, 2009 after taping the Cannabis Common Sense TV show.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Quote FF "All Cannabis use is medicinal. some people say they get high to get high? Why? Because they are low, its depression. If they say no it's just for fun. Then it's for threaputic stress relief. If people weren't so stressed out they wouldn't need to use medicine to have "fun".

I like this line of thinking.

 

[JackTheGrower]

It's not "my" way. But it already happened in 1996 with this little unknown thing called Proposition 215.



I think the populate misconception is that the business will still have to pay all the taxes currently required by law. The ones that I pay right now. We just don't need a new specific tax based on the weight of weed.


Unfortunately I hate to say it, but it is. Don't listen to me, listen to what Dennis Peron and Jack Herer have to say.




Yeah at the end of the day we are all still smokers at heart!

And? Do you have a plan or is this cyberbation of your thoughts?


I'd like to read a plan.. Who knows maybe you can raise the banner and we will all follow.

JackTheGrower..

 

[sdsmoker32]

we need the money. the thing about america is that if they can put a price on something then that something is pretty much safe garded forever. look at the history of this country, the one thing that has been abolished was alcohol. and that was because guys would get hammered and beat the fuck out of their wives. but then america lost a shitload of revenue from taxing the fire water. so what do you know? LETS LEGALIZE ALCOHOL....AGAIN!. its the same shit with weed. give it time oakland passsed its bill for taxation, then it will be san fran then it will be humboldt then it will come south to la and sd.
america is a capitalist country and when you live in a capitalist country the name of the game is MONEY. so in short if you want to smoke weed legaly your going to have to pay taxes, sorry Jack, but the govt is gonna get that money because were gonna keep smoking and were not going to get to smoke weed without some way of gvot control, and with this its by taxing it.

another example of this would be cigarettes. those are literally death rolled up in a nice little smokable form. but the govt doesnt get rid of it because it makes them fucking bank off taxes. if for some reason the govt stopped making money off cigs and alcohol then those things would be illegal and i would be buying beer ilegally from mexico. sound familiar?

in closing: Jack is a great human being hes a forfather of mmj movement, but his emotions got to him and led him to say something that although it was very passionate, it was also very unrealistic. think of the US govt as a giant dick, and the mmj community as a young vagina. the dick wants to be in the vagina and theres pretty much nothing we can do about it but just sit back and enjoy my weed taxed or not taxed, either way im not gonna stop smoking because if i do then Big Brother wins.

one love
positive vibes to Jack Herer a great man with a great strain.

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

I hear and agree to some extent with both sides of the argument......

America is the epitome of a capitalist country and the government there is in business to make money from the people in taxes, there is no getting away from that....

On the other hand I agree with what FF is trying to put across and that cannabis should not be taxed.........but I am pretty sure that it will be......if it is ever universally legalized....

 

[Surf Striper]

I would not mind paying tax on what I buy. But I dont want to hear anything about taxing what I grow.
It would be a nightmare to enforce. (Another reason to break in your house also.) Do you have to pay a tax to make beer or wine? But just me growing 2-4 plants.
No F------ way will I pay tax on what I grow for my own use.

This is a cut and paste from another forum on 4/13/09 and I stand by it now. I will not pay a dime of taxes for any thing I grow. Even if I give some away or sell some to a shop.
Good luck Mr. Herer wish you the best.

 

[Pythagllio]

One needs to be a subject of a state or a sworn member of a voluntary organization before the word 'treason' is appropriate.

When you all get finished with your nirvana 'right and wrong' beliefs there is nothing left but reality. Money talks, bullshit walks. We do not have the majority as they had in the days of the whiskey rebellion. Without compromise to the other side we will never move beyond where we are. Reality is this country is controlled by special interests. Either special interests that the majority of voters support or special interests that generate money or power for elected officials. The only way this works is if we become a special interest.

Call me a traitor but I've sworn no oath to your little club of fanatics who believe in these nirvana fantasies. Reality is I have a different point of view with which you disagree, and for some reason can't accept that people have differing points of view. It is this same lack of vision that makes you think that Joe Redneck in Butte County who hates potheads is irrelevant, when in reality we have to get him to agree to leave us alone. Is it realistic to think we're going to get him to agree by saying, well all we want is to be left alone to do whatever we want. C'mon, get real.

Above someone called for an example of an excise tax that hasn't gone up. Does the initiative that mentions the $50 an ounce excise tax allow the legislature to amend? Because you know in CA initiatives that don't specifically allow the legislature to amend can't be amended which would codify the $50 tax into perpetuity. If so, time will make that $50/ounce tax negligible.

If things were different, they just wouldn't be the same. But reality is that things are what they are. If you refuse to compromise in order to move this thing along you support the continued prohibition of cannabis and the further incarceration of people who enjoy it. Good luck forming the next Whiskey Rebellion with the herd of cats known as potheads.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

^this is the reality that sucks, but is true. however I do not believe on taxing the truely sick. people with cancer, glaucoma, chrons etc... to me though taxing recreation is ok. As much as I like to think stress release smoking is medicinal, it is not. There are many ways of stress relief. Then we couldnt tax cigarettes or boos either. I think we should tax caffine products more as well.

 

[Pythagllio]

If you don't want to pay the tax, grow your own. If you are too sick to do this, then you shouldn't be smoking anything IMO, and will avoid the tax by not buying actual marijuana.

Smoking is by no means the only delivery method available. If you're not aware of other methods you need to get out more. Edibles, vaporization, topicals, oromucosal , and even suppositories are valid delivery systems and make the perceived dangers of smoking vanish.

FF, what in the world makes you thin Prop 215 goes away if one of these other initiatives passes? Nothing could be further from the truth. Those in compliance with 215 will not be affected in the least.

 

[Megas]

What is tax on bud per gram in Holland?

 

[Koroz]

I don't care what side of the fence you are on. If you are such a lowlife that you can't present your side of the argument with out calling people pussies or traitors then really I could careless what you think. More so, calling someone a pussy because he doesn't agree with you just makes you look ignorant, or trying to be an internet tough guy. At least you apologized I guess, the fact that you would even say it in the first place shows a lot about your character.

I am not a traitor because I don't think we can pass legalization with out taxation, just as you are not a dreamer living in la-la land because you do. Those are opinions, and like assholes everybody has one. The difference is one is going to happen, and one won't. We can bicker and complain that it shouldn't be taxed, but everything is taxed. You won't be going to the store to buy a tomato and not have it taxed. You won't go to the store and buy a cabbage, and not have it taxed. You want to purchase something that is sold? In the US it has a tax. You don't want to pay the tax? Don't sell it, Don't buy it, and grow your own. Just as you can do with any other plant.

My question is, why do some people think just because they smoke Cannabis they are entitled to some special treatment? The only people who deserve special treatment are the ones who were put in jail for smoking something that should have never been illegal in the first place and the longer we fight about the right or wrong way to do that instead of fighting back is just more time they have to lock us up.

 

[JJScorpio]

If people want to get mad about something, they should get mad at the way dying people get ripped off by these med clubs. Twenty or twenty five bucks a gram, sixty an eighth, four hundred an ounce? If weed were legalized and taxed fifty an ounce, in a short period there would be so many growers the price would be half of what it is now.... Maybe someone needs to get involved so these sick people could actually afford to buy their meds.....

How many sick or dying people do you know that could afford anymore than a few grams a month at these prices? The most of these people are scraping to live on less than a grand a month. After renting a dirty room and buying some food there isn't much left. I know a med patient in Cali who is disabled and he buys his off the street because the clubs charge to much. There's no reason a club needs to buy pounds for 2600 and sell them for 6500. If anyone thinks this is looking out for the sick and dying you better think again..... Who's really the traitor?

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

If anyone thinks this is looking out for the sick and dying you better think again..... Who's really the traitor?

You are in no position to lecture me about sick and dying people. My Father was an mmj patient starting in 1993 because he had AIDS. My mother Ovarian cancer.

If you do a cost comparison for weed compared to big pharma prescription drugs. You will see on a dose by dose average that weed is cheaper even at those grossly inflated prices. You do not know how much weed I GIVE AWAY. Thats the reason I am poor. Some people really aren't trying to get rich off this. Some of us do it for the right reasons and motivations.

As for the traitor comment yeah I will admit that it's a bit harsh and extreme. More than likely it probably makes people not want to bother hearing my perspective. Which is evident by the insane amount of ignorant remarks made by people in this thread. And yes I made some too. But unlike other people I have no qualms admitting my faults.