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Foaming teas: desirable or not?

R

Relik

The general consensus regarding actively aerated compost teas is that the more foam, the better. We usually link the presence of foam to microbes breeding, and tend to see this as a favorable event, but is it really the case?

These last days I've been helping an aquaculturist in his research, part of which was about filtration systems for tanks meant to function in recirculating networks, and which are supposed to hold living animals (fish, shrimp...) for long periods of time (weeks). Thus, quality of water is one of the most important factors, along with nutrition. Since they're using recirculating water networks (provides much more control over all variables linked to water such as pH, temperatures, organic matter content), we were working on protein skimmers.

Protein skimmers, unlike what we would think, do not only remove proteins from the water, they also remove heavy metals and contaminants, as well as nitrous wastes. To make it short, it is a water purification system often used in aquaculture, and it works by recirculating the (dirty) water in a tall column in which it is bubbled. There is a dwell time, during which the (dirty) water is in contact with the bubbles, and after this dwell time the water is fresh and ready to be recirculated again. The purpose of bubbling the water is to "trap" undesirable compounds and bring them to the surface, where their accumulation creates foam, which is then separated and eliminated.

In a living soil, fungi and bacteria produce enzymes which break down organic material such as cellulose (action of cellulase), sugars (amylase) or proteins (protease), amongst others, in forms that plants can reuse. So I was wondering if, by bubbling our teas, we were reducing the protein (and N in general) content in considerable amounts or just minute amounts. Given the results, I would be tempted to think that bubbled foaming teas do their work quite well, but wouldn't a non-foaming tea (unskimmed) be more nutritional than a foaming tea? "Feed the soil not the plant" is the motto, so are we underfeeding our microherd when letting our teas foam?

Most manufacturers of organic bottled nutes include vitamins (vital amino acids) and proteins (chains of amino acids) in their products, and when we brew our own tea, we try to include them too (I do, and I know many others do), so I'd think it would be somewhat counterproductive to let our teas foam, but this is just a theory. In practice, we know that foaming teas give the desired effect, and unless we can measure different factors (protein content and their breakdown rate, soil mircoherd activity), this will remain a theory. After all, as I said above, maybe the removed protein content is unsignificant when we're bubbling our teas at home. But too much foam can make a tea go anaerobic by preventing the escape of gases... many things to think about, in fact, any input?
 

Mr Celsius

I am patient with stupidity but not with those who
Veteran
I think the most important part about the foaming that happens in the tea, is that is a great sign that we are adding enough DO.
 

Scay Beez

Active member
We must first make the distinction between bio-waste and foam. Bio-waste is the dark colored foam/stuff (normally black) that forms on the sides of your compost tea containers and is the waste product of the bacteria. It can signify areas in your compost tea container that are not staying oxygenated and becoming anaerobic. Bio-foam should be thrown in the compost pile and not onto your plants. This means something is wrong.

I personally think that the color of the foam is a sign of compost tea health. When I see people's containers bubbling out onto the floor, I'm thinking either they didn't use a big enough container, they are adding too much sugar/food, temps are too hot, and/or using yucca or soapwort during the brew cycle. When I see foam that is very dark colored it tells me that microorganisms are dying because they are reproducing too fast and choking each other out. Dark parts in the foam can also be floating bio-waste.

The foam contains glue that the bacteria attach themselves to each soil particle. It loosens the soil and helps the compost tea stick to the soil better.

There is a balance between temperature, food, and oxygen when making compost tea. Obviously the more sugars you add (especially simple sugars) the quicker the bacteria will reproduced, eventually drowning themselves out. If your compost tea is in an area which is too hot one might try using less sugar or brewing for a shorter amount of time.

I think that just as plants need carbs, they also need proteins like humans. I think of proteins as things fungi foods (alfalfa, seaweed, soybean). SFI recommends a 0.8 Fungi to Bacteria ratio for tomatoes.



- sbz
 

Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
It seems you guys are really expanding your topics and learning with regards to organics, I'm always impressed by the level of discussion in this forum. :headbange

My personal experience with foam is limited, I brew in a colder garage and I use as of late more conservative amounts of molasses so I get less foam.
The teas themselves have been just as effective, I think alot of what you guys are saying makes sense, I've read a few times that the right amount of bubbles running throught the tea is important as a violent bubbling can negatively impact the quality of specimen in the tea. :badday:
I'm sketchy on trusting the color of the foam as I don't use a sock for my EWC so I get alot of bubbled solids in the foam, plus if I was to compare the water in a fish tank to that in my tea I would point otu that MOST of what is in the fishwater is actually good for the plants (aquaponics).
I think tea ingredients, heat and DO amounts have ALOT to do with making an effective tea but I am still learning about teas and how to balanve fungi and bacteria in a tea.

Keep this up, great topic Relik as usual.

Suby
 

Dignan

The Soapmaker!
Veteran
another very nice thread and great points. Suby I follow ya.

I also wonder how much correlation there is between foam produced and the amount of worm castings used. I would guess that the glue-like exudes from worms contribute to the foaming action.

I don't often get foam and I think it's because the temps I brew at, as Suby mentioned, but I have noticed that there is the foam that most experience while the bacteria is proliferating and munching away at the sugars, but there is the other kind of foam that happens when you overfeed the bacteria and then brew too long and the bacteria "get their fill" and basically retire (attache themselves to the wall of the bucket for example) or expire (croak) from excessive turbulence in the tea. Their carcasses form a pasty sort of foam that adheres to the walls of the bucket.
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
ICMag Donor
Veteran
to be honest my teas don't foam up as much as i see with people and there 5 gallon buckets and bubblers, the teas are superb though and grow some serious stuff still dont get me wrong. i go by smell, color of liquid and a few other small things personally, and not by the amount of foam.
 

quadracer

Active member
jaykush said:
to be honest my teas don't foam up as much as i see with people and there 5 gallon buckets and bubblers, the teas are superb though and grow some serious stuff still dont get me wrong. i go by smell, color of liquid and a few other small things personally, and not by the amount of foam.


Ever since I moved up from 5 to 20 gallons, there has been very little foam in my teas. Besides the big volume change, my aquarium heater broke and I haven't replaced it. Instead, I try to use the sun to heat it up during the day, and let it cool during the night.

When I first started using the 20 gallon, I had major consistency issues with the tea. This was solved by using an old sock as a strainer and stirring the tea daily. Even there is no foam, the teas are highly effective and smell of earth and kelp.

As a side note, I've been experimenting with adding some different ingredients. I pick some dandelion flowers and dead or dying comfrey leaves, bring a pot of tea to a boil, and put everything in a mason jar to cool and shake. Then I strain it through the sock and castings. A little more from the garden and less from the bottle!
 
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jaykush

dirty black hands
ICMag Donor
Veteran
yea i agree quadracer they dont foam like crazy but all the goodies are still there and do there job just as good as if theres no foam. im thinking of upping the brewer to 55 gallons too :x i must be nuts.

and the dandelion. i have been using them in my compost and teas lately, they also go pretty well in a salad haha.
 
V

vonforne

The best foam comes from castings and molasses. When adding other organic matter it is my experience that it will foam less but still maintains its NPK value and microbial activity.

V
 
R

Relik

Hi! :wave: First of all I’d like to thank you guys for your replies, which all bring up good points.

I have to admit that after posting this and searching about it, I found myself in a situation where the results were either too simple to be accepted as scientific evidence, or very complex and thus needing some work and understanding of bacterial metabolism (and its byproducts – metabolites) and development/growth.

First, here are a couple short extracts from what I considered too simple to accept as evidence, but which provide clues or are helpful in some way:

http://www.captaincompostalabama.com/compostteastuff.htm
A good aerobic tea should always have a pleasant yeasty, wine, or fruity smell. Sometimes an aerobic tea has foam on top, like in this photo.
composttea1.jpg

composttea3.jpg
I would like to point out that the foam pictured above looks pretty similar to the minimum amount of foam I get when brewing a tea. I wouldn’t even call it foam but rather the result of an adequate aeration (similar to what Mr. Celsius said – good DO levels).


http://www.deuleysown.com/how to make compost teamaker/how to make your own teamaker.htm
You should also expect to see a brown foam form on top of the tea. Whether you have foam or not, either is normal depending on the nature of your ingredients.
Sounds like what has been said earlier, different ingredients and quantities will lead to different results. Nothing new here, just another example where foam is mentioned as “optional”. Please note that the two previous quotes are what I considered empirical evidence, based on the experience of the gardener. Opposed to these “theories”, there are sources that consider foam as a sign of finished compost tea, but my personal experience and those of others here would lead to believe that this is not the case.



http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/compostteas/Week-of-Mon-20020527/000102.html
What is the foam that forms on the tea. Someone told me you know when the tea is finished by a head of foam. Is this true?

imho IT IS NOT True. Sometimes you can even have a good tea with out any foam at all. The foam is usually proteins from things in the compost like worms.
The guy answering keeps it pretty simple, but I’m taking into account what he has to say (he’s answering for gardener.com I think), it could help.
First thing I note is that he says the foam is made of proteins, which is what I was thinking initially, and according to him they would come from worms? Does he mean worm castings or the worms themselves? EWC I hope… :D
As Dignan stated, there could be a correlation between foam produced and the amount of worm castings used, however I have not found concrete search results regarding composition of worm intestinal mucus and their excretions, which could explain the foam. Many websites mention the presence of enzymes in the digestive system but I am yet to come across detailed chemical composition of worm castings.


http://www.soilfoodweb.com.au/index.php?pageid=339
Habitat requirements for beneficial bacteria and fungi required to prevent pests and pathogens
* Maintain 5.5 ppm O2 or higher during brewing cycle
* Pleasant Smell
* Increase in temperature of 1 to 10 F is normal
* Foam is typically sign of good bacterial metabolite development
* Maintain tea fully aerated as long as held before use
This SFI-Australia quote is what oriented my research towards bacterial metabolism, to understand what are these bacterial metabolites and what compounds constitute them. I have unfortunately not found what I was looking for, but yet came across two great websites, both from the same author, Kenneth Todar, who teaches bacteriology at the University of Wisconsin.
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/ is a gold mine for those interested in bacterial development, but it has more of a medical approach to bacteriology than an agricultural one. Very interesting nonetheless, I spent hours last night checking the different topics. Still, I found this page could help us in some way: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/environment.html .
Biodegradation is the process in the carbon cycle for which microbes get most credit (or blame). Biodegradation is the decomposition of organic material (CH2O) back to CO2 + H2O and H2. In soil habitats, the fungi play a significant role in biodegradation, but the procaryotes are equally important. The typical decomposition scenario involves the initial degradation of biopolymers (cellulose, lignin, proteins, polysaccharides) by extracellular enzymes, followed by oxidation (fermentation or respiration) of the monomeric subunits. The ultimate end products are CO2, H2O and H2, perhaps some NH3 (ammonia) and sulfide (H2S), depending on how one views the overall process. These products are scarfed up by lithotrophs and autotrophs for recycling. Procaryotes which play an important role in biodegradation in nature include the actinomycetes, clostridia, bacilli, arthrobacters and pseudomonads.

Overall Process of Biodegradation (Decomposition)

polymers (e.g. cellulose)-----------------> monomers (e.g. glucose) depolymerization

monomers-----------------> fatty acids (e.g. lactic acid, acetic acid, propionic acid) + CO2 + H2 fermentation

monomers + O2 -----------------> CO2 + H2O aerobic respiration
Also worth browsing: http://www.bact.wisc.edu/themicrobialworld/homepage.html from which the “textbook of bacteriology” is inspired (both from the same author). I personally feel that this could get as simple or as complex as we want it to be (just like most subjects in organic growing… :D), and for the moment I am stuck because of my lack of understanding the precise biochemical reactions that take place when we’re brewing a tea.

Back to something simple, if you google “compost tea foam”, you can come across websites that suggest the use of oils (any organic oil is fine, but beware of oils that have antibacterial properties such as canola or olive oil) to block or suppress foam formation, because it would supposedly reduce the surface tension of the bubbles of which the foam is made of. Some even recommend to apply oil to the edges of the container so that if foam is created, it doesn’t get out of the container. Makes sense, I have personally noticed that when adding fish emulsion (which contains oils) to a brewing tea, the foaming disappeared entirely but I had never understood why.

I’d be tempted to skip the FSI bolded quote (unless someone proves me wrong, constructive criticism is welcome of course) and believe that foam, even if it happens often, is not a trustworthy indicator of a good bacterial tea (don’t get me wrong, I am not saying it means the tea is bad, just that it can be good with or without foam). I think we all have had pretty good results with non foamed teas to believe that foam plays a minor role in the brewing of an effective tea. For example, floppyfundanglr states he doesn’t even bubble his teas (no offense taken btw :D), I’d think he has the nutrition but less bacteria than if bubbled.

I know this is quite sketchy but it is all I could come with for now, I’d like to thank everyone again for giving their opinion on a controversial topic.
 

Dignan

The Soapmaker!
Veteran
Very nice post, Relik. Will have to read that one a few times over.

The exudes from the worms' digestive tracts, per my understanding, are most definitely present in the castings. In fact, it can act like a glue, which is what makes EWC crust over almost like hardpan if you put too much in the top few inches of your soil mix.

Still, like you said, may or may not have anything to do with foam, but seems like a likely culprit.

The minimal foam my teas get look just like that pic above with the blue bucket. Less like foam and more like soap bubbles or something.

Again, wonderful post. Thanks!
 
i dont have an airpump but i decided to check out how a water pump would work and i have it pumping the water back in the bucket making little bubbles so i assume it might help but mainly to keep it from going anerobic. I read some things about filtering. Is there something in organic nutes thats not good. I think in the mandala seed forum they brush on it as well.

peacemandala organic thread
 
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Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
Hey Floppy,

What your doing is an even better way of getting oxygen into the mix, it's the way 1Toke works his Bio-Buckets with a waterfall return into the reservoir, breaking the surface tension of the water gets oxygen into the mix quickly.
I read the Mandala info, while there are some risks I think this post exagerates that risk for growers.
Yes a mask in important, yes animal by-products are dangerous and mysterious sources of compost can hide less than desirable pathogens but avian flu is not something I'm worried about in my garden...?
All Miracle Grow Organic soil mixes contain chicken litter and their not likely to risk a lawsuit over something as serious as avain flu.

Suby
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
ICMag Donor
Veteran
floppy it will work great, i use an old pool pump to brew my teas. if i wanted i could make 100 gallons easily with this beast. the concept is the same with a water pump. make sure to clean it out well every 3rd to 4th run of tea to keep it nice and working efficiently.





and it was FREEEE!

and to be on topic thats usually about all the foam i get on there. sometimes a little more sometimes less.
 

Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
Nice JK, I was using a pool pum to make tea using a pool filter emtied, it was awesome.
The foam was off the chart in that setup though, maybe I overdid the molasses hehehe.
I made a total of ~30gallons of tea, my lawn loved it.

Suby
 
G

Guest

I been meaning to ask you, Suby.. you had mentioned using teas on your lawn before. Still doing it? Notice any difference? I got a lawn that the only good thing I can say about it is..Weeds cut short looks like grass from the road. I'm sure teas would help it. Just wanting someone I respect to confirm it. lol
 

Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
Yes I saw an immediate difference although the term lawn should be applied loosely, my neighbours and I refer to our lawns as controlled jungle.
If you want to grow a full organic lawn you have to apply compost every spring, aerated it in the beginning and cut the lawn between 3-4 inches so alot longer than your used to.
I brewed a bacterial tea but I've been told a fungal tea is much better, you need a tea that hekps mulch the leftover from cutting (thatch) and fungi love fibrous things like thatch.
You also should think about reseeding your lawn, apply lawn seed at the fall or spring to weedy areas and eventually they will outcompete the weeds if you cutting it long.


:off2: :whip: sorry Relik lol

peace
S
 
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