S
SeaMaiden
*I* would also say don't remove the foam.
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Foam in ACT
- Thread starter Microbeman
- Start date
there is a lot of surface area in those bubbles...with very high O2 content also.
Very nice breeding grounds, imho.
Very nice breeding grounds, imho.
Foam caused by rapid microbial reproduction is extremely light and 'fluffy'. It looks different than foaming caused by merely aerating an organic solution. Linseed or flaxseed (same thing) will also reduce or remove the foaming... It is not harmful to the microbes, but it is an additional food source that will take O2 and time to get through. (It will lower dissolved O2 in the solution)
A pH trending up along with light fluffy foam could indicate rapid microbial growth (in the absence of a microscope for confirmation)... You should be able to easily blow sections of this foam into the air with your lung power
So, not to contradict microbeman, but some types of foaming can indicate rapid microbial growth...
Hope this helps...
JKD
Evidence?
I'm on the verge of wiping this thread and leaving this forum. What is happening here is exactly what I asked not to happen.
Foam caused by rapid microbial reproduction is extremely light and 'fluffy'. It looks different than foaming caused by merely aerating an organic solution. Linseed or flaxseed (same thing) will also reduce or remove the foaming... It is not harmful to the microbes, but it is an additional food source that will take O2 and time to get through. (It will lower dissolved O2 in the solution)
A pH trending up along with light fluffy foam could indicate rapid microbial growth (in the absence of a microscope for confirmation)... You should be able to easily blow sections of this foam into the air with your lung power
So, not to contradict microbeman, but some types of foaming can indicate rapid microbial growth...
Hope this helps...
JKD
How would you analyze this foam? Can you blow this fluffy stuff? Is it full of microbes?
here's a close up if it helps 
seriously though Mm you are one of the rocks upon which this organic forum is built, so please dont leave.
VG
VG
evidence please JKD!!!!
let's get some things straight. first, what is foam?
foam is a bunch of bubbles made of a liquid mixture. when the bubbles are hard, and don't easily join up to make bigger bubbles, we have foam. when the foam is light enough, and sticks poorly to the rest of your brew, it can build up at the surface as a mass of foam.
yes, lots of microbes respirating could create bubbles, and those bubbles could become foam if the bacteria change the physical properties of the liquid to hold those small bubbles..
think about your brewer though. two questions:
were is the liquid picking up its "foaming ability", and where are the bubbles coming from?
the answer to the first question is probably the ingredients you used, not microbial action.
the answer to the second question is hard to debate. the bubbles are coming from your air pump, aren't they.
so who makes the foam?
let's get some things straight. first, what is foam?
foam is a bunch of bubbles made of a liquid mixture. when the bubbles are hard, and don't easily join up to make bigger bubbles, we have foam. when the foam is light enough, and sticks poorly to the rest of your brew, it can build up at the surface as a mass of foam.
yes, lots of microbes respirating could create bubbles, and those bubbles could become foam if the bacteria change the physical properties of the liquid to hold those small bubbles..
think about your brewer though. two questions:
were is the liquid picking up its "foaming ability", and where are the bubbles coming from?
the answer to the first question is probably the ingredients you used, not microbial action.
the answer to the second question is hard to debate. the bubbles are coming from your air pump, aren't they.
so who makes the foam?
Dude, can I call you dude? We would all be even dumber than we are now if you did not post here. Believe it or don't, I have learned a lot from your web page and from your research you have posted. Like they say, you can't fix stupid, but your work is appreciated...."scrappy
Understanding this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_growth
You can appreciate the following occuring during the exponential growth phase:
http://www.heritagesystemsinc.com/Downloads/WhitePapers/BiologyNewPlantStart-ups.pdf
http://www.waterandwastewater.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1329857008
Microbeman - your foam is not what I was referring to and is probably due to filamentous or zoogloea bacteria in the foam (if it is bacterial) or a plethora of other causes if it is not. Without more info it is hard to say. Below is some more info on foaming, there is much more online.
https://pncwa.memberclicks.net/asse...on 6-3 - operations - mike re gary young.pdf
Why Activated Sludge in an ACT thread?
Activated Sludge : Food is called BOD (Molasses in ACT). Urea and Phosphoric acid added instead of guano etc as in ACT. Microbiology is called biological sludge. Activated essentially means aerated. An AS basin is basically a tightly controlled, high volume, aerated tea brewer . These are my examples because this is what I do for a living
The ratio for ACT based on AS would be: For 100 parts Molasses add 5 parts N and 1 part P. 2grams molasses/litre of liquid.
There is not a lot of info available on ACT, but if you think outside the box and learn the lingo there is a massive amount of info on activated sludge that is available online - many of your ACT Qs' answered.
Same microbes (mesophilic aerobes), same theory for their growth, just different goals. ACT = feeding BOD to grow microbes. AS = growing microbes to consume BOD...
Also, for those that don't already have it (the bible of ACT):
http://fetelevousmeme.free.fr/DiY/Permaculture/Growing_SOIL/Brew Manual 04-28-08.pdf
Hope this info is useful for some of you...
JKD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_growth
You can appreciate the following occuring during the exponential growth phase:
http://www.heritagesystemsinc.com/Downloads/WhitePapers/BiologyNewPlantStart-ups.pdf
http://www.waterandwastewater.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1329857008
Microbeman - your foam is not what I was referring to and is probably due to filamentous or zoogloea bacteria in the foam (if it is bacterial) or a plethora of other causes if it is not. Without more info it is hard to say. Below is some more info on foaming, there is much more online.
https://pncwa.memberclicks.net/asse...on 6-3 - operations - mike re gary young.pdf
Why Activated Sludge in an ACT thread?
Activated Sludge : Food is called BOD (Molasses in ACT). Urea and Phosphoric acid added instead of guano etc as in ACT. Microbiology is called biological sludge. Activated essentially means aerated. An AS basin is basically a tightly controlled, high volume, aerated tea brewer . These are my examples because this is what I do for a living
The ratio for ACT based on AS would be: For 100 parts Molasses add 5 parts N and 1 part P. 2grams molasses/litre of liquid.
There is not a lot of info available on ACT, but if you think outside the box and learn the lingo there is a massive amount of info on activated sludge that is available online - many of your ACT Qs' answered.
Same microbes (mesophilic aerobes), same theory for their growth, just different goals. ACT = feeding BOD to grow microbes. AS = growing microbes to consume BOD...
Also, for those that don't already have it (the bible of ACT):
http://fetelevousmeme.free.fr/DiY/Permaculture/Growing_SOIL/Brew Manual 04-28-08.pdf
Hope this info is useful for some of you...
JKD
You can have your bible but your personal expertise is appreciated.
As you get deeper in the forums, you'll realize the point of this thread. There's a large number of posts from newbies full of excitement over foam when the majority of the time it means nothing.
In my mind, it makes no difference one way or the other.
If they want to get excited...well, we need more excitement in this world
As you get deeper in the forums, you'll realize the point of this thread. There's a large number of posts from newbies full of excitement over foam when the majority of the time it means nothing.
In my mind, it makes no difference one way or the other.
If they want to get excited...well, we need more excitement in this world
S
SeaMaiden
Ooooohhh hoo hoo hooo shit!! That's like the WORST protein skimmer accident I have ever seen! Also, that skimmate is IDEAL, exactly what aquarists are looking for. Hehheh, I'm suddenly reminded of the time I almost fell into an 8' tall reaction chamber at the Long Beach Aquarium, head-first.
I would have to scope it to say whether or not there are microbes IN it, but would not be able to determine from that alone whether or not the foam was caused by them. I think not, I think perhaps it's the microbe poo that causes the foam. But, again, I would want to know if microbe poop has polarity.
JKD, obviously the aquatic world has taken much from water treatment and wastewater treatment venues, however, there are different goals between them, and what folks are trying to accomplish via ACTs. Water Tx and wastewater Tx has a goal simply of making potable water, yes? Whereas in aquatics our goal is to make water liveable for aquatic organisms, not safely drinkable. And so I've found in my years as an aquarist that potable water is often not the best water for living organisms. To my mind ACT (culturing microbes) is very akin to aquatic water management (culturing nitrifying microbes, in some systems culturing denitrifying microbes), moreso than water Tx methods.
i like to get a rich lathery foam and apply it to my plants before i do any trimming.
it really helps get a closer shave with less nicking
Seamaiden.
I'm not sure you understand what activated sludge is about.
Wastewater treatment is about removing biological oxygen and chemical oxygen demand so as not to deplete O2 in natural waterways (so we don't kill sealife.) It is different to making potable water. BOD and COD is like adding molasses to your liquid. It is food for the microbes. The terminology is just different. You say molasses, we say BOD. In wastewater molasses would be BOD as it would deplete O2 from water in a marine environment. (It would cause rapid growth of microbes which would remove all the DO from the surrounding water and kill the fish.)
When you overfeed fish in an aquarium you have introduced BOD. Same as the above. O2 depletes because of microbes using it leaving none for fish
Google activated sludge and you will see that it is all about optimising conditions for the microbiology as it is they that do all the work (food, pH DO, nutrients All for maximising microbe growth. The goal is treated water, but the method is to have healthy, active and abundant microbial life to achieve this. So much so the liquid becomes thick with it and it later needs to be removed before going into waterways. In terms of growing microscopic bacteria, fungi etc activated sludge is the forefront of the technology.
JKD
I'm not sure you understand what activated sludge is about.
Wastewater treatment is about removing biological oxygen and chemical oxygen demand so as not to deplete O2 in natural waterways (so we don't kill sealife.) It is different to making potable water. BOD and COD is like adding molasses to your liquid. It is food for the microbes. The terminology is just different. You say molasses, we say BOD. In wastewater molasses would be BOD as it would deplete O2 from water in a marine environment. (It would cause rapid growth of microbes which would remove all the DO from the surrounding water and kill the fish.)
When you overfeed fish in an aquarium you have introduced BOD. Same as the above. O2 depletes because of microbes using it leaving none for fish
Google activated sludge and you will see that it is all about optimising conditions for the microbiology as it is they that do all the work (food, pH DO, nutrients All for maximising microbe growth. The goal is treated water, but the method is to have healthy, active and abundant microbial life to achieve this. So much so the liquid becomes thick with it and it later needs to be removed before going into waterways. In terms of growing microscopic bacteria, fungi etc activated sludge is the forefront of the technology.
JKD
not sure if you are being obtuse on purpose JKD?
you have a pump making bubbles, and various ingredients capable of generating foam when agitated in such a way.
so all those links, despite showing what we already know -- that microbes can generate foam in the right situation -- they don't say anything at all about foam in compost tea.
in COMPOST TEA, the foam or lack of it will tell you NOTHING USEFUL. You can have two very similar brews with the same general groups of microbes and yet have one of those foam and the other not foam, just with the addition of a little bit of oil.
so please stop passing out bad advice. you can't tell anything useful about a compost tea brew from the foam. period. foam can happen over a wide range of circumstances and for any number of reasons.
maybe, if you really care, you can learn something useless from the foam. but if you want to have a clue, you need a microscope at least. otherwise, you can just trust a good recipe.
here is a little experiment to show you just how unreliable foam can be as an indicator: pour yourself two glasses of chimay. leave one glass alone. take your finger and rub your nose with it, swirl the foam in the second glass. you will notice the foam disappear on the second glass. did the microbes change? or did you just tweak the surface tension with your skin oil?
you have a pump making bubbles, and various ingredients capable of generating foam when agitated in such a way.
so all those links, despite showing what we already know -- that microbes can generate foam in the right situation -- they don't say anything at all about foam in compost tea.
in COMPOST TEA, the foam or lack of it will tell you NOTHING USEFUL. You can have two very similar brews with the same general groups of microbes and yet have one of those foam and the other not foam, just with the addition of a little bit of oil.
so please stop passing out bad advice. you can't tell anything useful about a compost tea brew from the foam. period. foam can happen over a wide range of circumstances and for any number of reasons.
maybe, if you really care, you can learn something useless from the foam. but if you want to have a clue, you need a microscope at least. otherwise, you can just trust a good recipe.
here is a little experiment to show you just how unreliable foam can be as an indicator: pour yourself two glasses of chimay. leave one glass alone. take your finger and rub your nose with it, swirl the foam in the second glass. you will notice the foam disappear on the second glass. did the microbes change? or did you just tweak the surface tension with your skin oil?
I'm sure (I hope) you mean 'has become useless'. The thread was started to provide an answer to folks who have been mislead to believe that foam indicates microbial life and a finished brew.
Understanding this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_growth
You can appreciate the following occuring during the exponential growth phase:
http://www.heritagesystemsinc.com/Downloads/WhitePapers/BiologyNewPlantStart-ups.pdf
http://www.waterandwastewater.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1329857008
Microbeman - your foam is not what I was referring to and is probably due to filamentous or zoogloea bacteria in the foam (if it is bacterial) or a plethora of other causes if it is not. Without more info it is hard to say. Below is some more info on foaming, there is much more online.
https://pncwa.memberclicks.net/asse...on 6-3 - operations - mike re gary young.pdf
Why Activated Sludge in an ACT thread?
Activated Sludge : Food is called BOD (Molasses in ACT). Urea and Phosphoric acid added instead of guano etc as in ACT. Microbiology is called biological sludge. Activated essentially means aerated. An AS basin is basically a tightly controlled, high volume, aerated tea brewer . These are my examples because this is what I do for a living
The ratio for ACT based on AS would be: For 100 parts Molasses add 5 parts N and 1 part P. 2grams molasses/litre of liquid.
There is not a lot of info available on ACT, but if you think outside the box and learn the lingo there is a massive amount of info on activated sludge that is available online - many of your ACT Qs' answered.
Same microbes (mesophilic aerobes), same theory for their growth, just different goals. ACT = feeding BOD to grow microbes. AS = growing microbes to consume BOD...
Also, for those that don't already have it (the bible of ACT):
http://fetelevousmeme.free.fr/DiY/Permaculture/Growing_SOIL/Brew Manual 04-28-08.pdf
Hope this info is useful for some of you...
JKD
This is just about the stupidest stuff, I've read in a while. One can create the foam you are describing with molasses and water alone, aerated. Observation with a microscope will reveal almost zero bacteria/archaea. Your supposed 'bible' has a number of inaccuracies and there are quite a number of stances which SFI (Elaine) has come around to supporting, since asserted and illustrated by me. There is nothing wrong with this, as we are all learning.
If you wish to learn about activated sludge;
http://www.abctlc.com/courses/ActivatedSludge.pdf
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I came here to help. I would have thought we were all on the same side.
I don't use 'Elaines' book. I thought it might be useful for ACT newbs.
I am always learning. I know that the day I think I know everything is the day that I stop learning. And become massively egocentric. And arrogant. And think my word is gospel.
I'm wasting my time typing this but:
The foam caused by rapid microbial growth is unique among all the many types of foam. (All foaming in activated sludge is studied to the nth degree). If you had ever experienced it you would have recognised it from my description. If you talk to any industry professionals they will confirm this. (The photos are ok but not the best.) It is as I said, extremely light (it blows everywhere, in the slightest breeze, where most other foams don't.) It is snow white - untarnished by solution colour. It consists of billions of tiny air bubbles, which make it compact or stiff. (Unlike the foam in your pic.) It is, as I said, unique. If you actually bothered to read through the entire links I posted this would be apparent. Incidentally for mad lib: Biological foam has a far longer life (up to 50 hrs depending on species) compared to surfactants (a few hours). That is very basic knowledge and an easy way of knowing without needing a scope. With your attitude I'm surprised you didn't know this. But since you imagine ACT to be vastly different to AS I guess I'm not really.
I grow microbes professionally on a massive scale. In an industry based entirely on microbiology - the largest biotechnology industry on earth. With professional lab equipment on hand and technicial support from our specialist microbiology research department. (With real live phD possessing full-time scientists).
And you want to think I've got no knowledge or experience that you haven't got already with your backyard set-up? That I've nothing to offer other users of this forum?
Fine. This is my last post here - the floor is yours.
By the way, thanks for the basic beginners introduction to activated sludge. Next time I have a new apprentice I'll have them read it.
Have a nice day
JKD
I don't use 'Elaines' book. I thought it might be useful for ACT newbs.
I am always learning. I know that the day I think I know everything is the day that I stop learning. And become massively egocentric. And arrogant. And think my word is gospel.
I'm wasting my time typing this but:
The foam caused by rapid microbial growth is unique among all the many types of foam. (All foaming in activated sludge is studied to the nth degree). If you had ever experienced it you would have recognised it from my description. If you talk to any industry professionals they will confirm this. (The photos are ok but not the best.) It is as I said, extremely light (it blows everywhere, in the slightest breeze, where most other foams don't.) It is snow white - untarnished by solution colour. It consists of billions of tiny air bubbles, which make it compact or stiff. (Unlike the foam in your pic.) It is, as I said, unique. If you actually bothered to read through the entire links I posted this would be apparent. Incidentally for mad lib: Biological foam has a far longer life (up to 50 hrs depending on species) compared to surfactants (a few hours). That is very basic knowledge and an easy way of knowing without needing a scope. With your attitude I'm surprised you didn't know this. But since you imagine ACT to be vastly different to AS I guess I'm not really.
I grow microbes professionally on a massive scale. In an industry based entirely on microbiology - the largest biotechnology industry on earth. With professional lab equipment on hand and technicial support from our specialist microbiology research department. (With real live phD possessing full-time scientists).
And you want to think I've got no knowledge or experience that you haven't got already with your backyard set-up? That I've nothing to offer other users of this forum?
Fine. This is my last post here - the floor is yours.
By the way, thanks for the basic beginners introduction to activated sludge. Next time I have a new apprentice I'll have them read it.
Have a nice day
JKD
I was wondering when you'd hit your point. Very eloquently done by the way....I came here to help. I would have thought we were all on the same side.
I don't use 'Elaines' book. I thought it might be useful for ACT newbs.
I am always learning. I know that the day I think I know everything is the day that I stop learning. And become massively egocentric. And arrogant. And think my word is gospel.
I'm wasting my time typing this but:
The foam caused by rapid microbial growth is unique among all the many types of foam. (All foaming in activated sludge is studied to the nth degree). If you had ever experienced it you would have recognised it from my description. If you talk to any industry professionals they will confirm this. (The photos are ok but not the best.) It is as I said, extremely light (it blows everywhere, in the slightest breeze, where most other foams don't.) It is snow white - untarnished by solution colour. It consists of billions of tiny air bubbles, which make it compact or stiff. (Unlike the foam in your pic.) It is, as I said, unique. If you actually bothered to read through the entire links I posted this would be apparent. Incidentally for mad lib: Biological foam has a far longer life (up to 50 hrs depending on species) compared to surfactants (a few hours). That is very basic knowledge and an easy way of knowing without needing a scope. With your attitude I'm surprised you didn't know this. But since you imagine ACT to be vastly different to AS I guess I'm not really.
I grow microbes professionally on a massive scale. In an industry based entirely on microbiology - the largest biotechnology industry on earth. With professional lab equipment on hand and technicial support from our specialist microbiology research department. (With real live phD possessing full-time scientists).
And you want to think I've got no knowledge or experience that you haven't got already with your backyard set-up? That I've nothing to offer other users of this forum?
Fine. This is my last post here - the floor is yours.
By the way, thanks for the basic beginners introduction to activated sludge. Next time I have a new apprentice I'll have them read it.
Have a nice day
JKD
There is a wide variety in what we call foam. Certainly an academic course of study for any profession associated with it. When you want to dial something in, you pay attention to every detail. A little Googling brings up where foam was being used for spore separation on certain bacteria. Down the road this could be of interest to us.
All that goes against the point of this thread which is basically aimed at the newbie excited because their dishwater is sudsy
Why it really matters, I don't know. If they want to get excited,,,We all need some excitement. Excitement is good.Thanks for posting and welcome to the forums..
in compost tea brewing with a microscope we try not to "crash" the tea, a term and concept I picked up from microbeman (edit: MM sent me a message saying he didn't come up with the term). a crash can happen for a number of reasons but they usually come down to not enough oxygen relative to food.
are you saying foam indicates the tea has not crashed? or that the foam indicates plenty of flagellates realative to ciliates, decent fungal spore counts, and lots of testate and naked ameobae?
once again I ask if you are being obtuse on purpose. if you work with microbes professionally as a leader and not a low level employee at a sewage treatment plant with a simple set of directions to follow, then you have a scope I'm sure, and you can easily show us pictured of slides, the accompanying foam, and forever entrench as fact the nearly ubiquitous idea that foam indicates successful ACT.
Foam and smell are the two biggest false indicators of a good brew. While I do find it interesting that foam has different properties depending on how it's made, I do find your description lacking. Yes, very tiny bubbles are harder than big ones, but it's the nature of the liquid forming the walls of the bubble that determines whether it will join up with another bubble now or later, and how much later. Your knowledge in this area would actually be very helpful for explaining why a mechanical blender makes a better neem oil/water emulsion.
however in ACT, since we are adding ingredients ourselves that radically alter surface tension and other characteristics, foam is a very unreliable indicator of success. It's especially important for people to know that a brew with ZERO FOAM could still be a very very good brew.
In any case, your ACT foam should be they type caused by your air pump. I have never seen an ACT that makes its own foam.
my best suggestion for you, if you truly want to help and if you truly respect professionalism, is to give your respect to microbeman. though you may be a microbe professional in a field related to the conversation at hand, microbeman is a professional compost tea expert. If you want to learn what makes a good brew and how to confirm it, check out his page at microbeorganics.com
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