Fireproofing your grow area

[prophecy]

How an arc fault breaker on the electrical panel can stop an arc fault IN the growroom if my wire are 80% connected in the wall outlet?

It is really safer to try to install these 3 things even I'm a real noob in electrical world?

Why my 700 watts computer do not these 3 parts installed in the control pannel?

 

[cosmik debris]

Do you want to play with fire scarecrow?

Do you want to play with fire scarecrow?

Not to be a dick but your syntax is a little hard to decipher.

There are an incalculable number of possible electrical issues that can cause a fire, but here's a few:

- increased circuit resistance due to poor connections (loosely tighten screw terminations or wire nutted connections).
- increased circuit resistance due to oxidation and/or thermal expansion and contraction, particularly on circuits using aluminum wire and/or experiencing constant on-off cycling.
- worn or frayed conductors, conductors or insulators that are nicked during installation or use (scoring a conductor just a fraction of a millimeter when stripping its insulation can easily reduce the effective capacity of the line significantly enough)
- each time a line is energized and de-energized the wire experiences a miniscule but real movement as the electron flow starts and stops, sort of like a water pipe being hit with high pressure as it's opened and closed. This vibration or movement can wear insulation, loosen connections and ultimately lead to resistance increase and/or short circuits and faults.
- too many wires/connections in too small a space or work box. They have a limit rating dependent on their volume for a reason.
- Even a connection with a wire nut and electrical tape will still possess the ability to generate an external arc, so the fewer the better and the cooler the better.
- The use of stranded wire (such as is found in typical lamp cord) rather than solid copper, can lead to frog hair shorts where just a single tiny strand of wire escapes notice but the electrons don't care.

There really is no comparison between the internal wiring of an appliance (such as your computer or its PSU) and power distribution wiring. Many appliances for example will have all sorts of internal protections already wired in, and most of that wiring is now actually solid state componentry and plated conductors on a printed circuit board rather than the type of physical connections that power distribution requires. Things like line imbalance transformers that sense when the level of incoming and outgoing current is not equal, slow blow and quick trip thermal/voltage protection, under-current detection, etc. are all concerns for your circuit wiring that most electronics makers have already dealt with within their own device. This does nothing to assure that the wires feeding the device are properly protected, it is only there to protect their appliance or device under the assumption that it is plugged into a properly wired circuit.

As the AFCI applies to a room filled with extension cords plugged into wall outlets, it is very easy and all too common that people overload circuits in this fashion. A single 15 amp circuit can feed an amazing amount of devices before something goes horribly wrong. Unless you know that the circuit that you are plugged into is 100% properly run and terminated, and you are absolutely certain that your combined total load on that circuit is well beneath its rated capacity, you are literally playing with fire. Initial start-up energy needed to fire an inactive ballast is considerably different from what it takes to keep it lit. Conditions change with the weather. Higher temps mean higher resistances, and the added fun of excessive humidity just magnifies the potential for condensation, corrosion and short circuit problems.

Consider the general suggestions made as cheap insurance against just a few of the things that will go wrong. Arc faults are the leading cause of residential fires in North America, 'nuff said?

If that's not enough for you call a local attorney and bondsman. Ask them what their services might cost you, forgetting the risk of death to you and others, or the potential loss of your freedom. I believe that if you do the math things like AFCI's, Halon systems and monitoring equipment will reveal themselves to be quite the bargain. Anything worth doing is worth over doing.

Disclaimer: Not an electrician, not even in my dreams. Nothing mentioned herein is intended to substitute for proper due diligence or the services of a licensed professional.

 

[prophecy]

Sorry I'm french...

I understand what you say but I still have some questions.

Computer have internal protection but when I read all the troubles that can cause fire it depend mostly on the electrical circuit of the house and not the equipement itself.

How the internal protection of a computer can protect an arc fault caused by the computer wire that is not well plugged in the wall outlet. How it can protect a nail in the wall that ''squeeze'' an electrical wire in the wall? That is mostly the problems you quote that can happen in a growroom.

Tension overload...! My breaker is 15A. My 1000w lumatek ballast on 120v need less than 9 amp. The ballast is alone on that breaker. How can I experience overload? I'm just asking! My ballast is wired to the cooltube, the cooltube wired into my 15A timer and the timer directly plug into the wall outlet that lead to the 15A breaker. I know I'm not protected for arc fault but I repeat, how it can be overload?

My 700w computer have internal protection but I plug it in the same electrical circuit. Not the same breaker but I guest that all the wire in my house have been installed the same way. So, if its maybe wrong for my ballast...logically its wrong for my computer too...!!?!?!

Again, I want an arc fault breaker!!!!!!! But I'm not electrician and I don't know any lectrician that can install this without asking questions. Its safe to install this by myslef? I'm good in everything but not an expert. I don't want to create more risk by doing this by myself ...

 

[cosmik debris]

Pardonnez moi s'il vous plait. My Francais sucks much worse than your English so again, my apologies.

When you turn your computer on it doesn't fire right up drawing the full load that your power supply is capable of delivering. If you're running max'ed out crazy quad SLi video cards and over clocked processors you'll get there, but for the most part the computer power is throttled back for all but the more demanding applications. Another thing is that just because the PSU is rated for 700 watts, unless it's certified, it probably makes less. Also, just as with analogue stereo speakers of old, people get misled by a peak rate as being what's constantly delivered.

There are other issues with "overload". The Lumatek's appear to have built in short circuit and over voltage protection,

http://www.lumatek.co.uk/index.php/support/faq.html

but I couldn't find anything that mentioned under voltage protection. Also I'm not familiar with how stable the French power grid is over the course of the daily and seasonal demand cycles. It's not unheard of in other parts of Europe to see 20% fluxuations, (probably here as well). That means that your 120 volts could actually range from somewhere in the 90's to over 140 volts. Since wattage is the product of Volts X Amps that would mean that if the power regulation of the ballast's circuitry adjusts to allow higher amps to compensate for a lower line voltage in order to maintain a steady wattage, the amps needed at 90 volt input would adjust to at least 12 amps +/- (once allowances for the unit's high power factor are considered). Any increased resistance in the circuit from increased ambiants to oxidized contacts could easily drive that even higher.

Either way installing an arc fault breaker is pretty straight forward and within the capabilities of anybody with some common sense and a screw driver. Depending on the make of your panel it may just require shutting off the main power, snapping out the existing breaker, removing the wires feeding it and re-attaching them to the new breaker. Then you snap it back in and turn the main power back on. Please consider however that there are a lot of power distribution panels available world wide and the breakers are normally sized specifically to fit that manufacturer's panel and no others. Don't know the French equivalent of the Home Center super store (such as Home Depot or Lowes in the States) but they can probably steer you in the right direction.

Again, I'm not an electrician, just a guy who's messed with it without getting killed or burning anything down. If you need to get a local professional opinion or advice, I would suggest mentioning that you have a more legally acceptable appliance in mind - of similar power requirements. Possibly even a high powered computer that you're concerned might overload or be damaged by under current. Tell him you're building an over-clocked graphics workstation that you intend to run for days at a time "folding" for example, or maybe you're just into fragging in the latest hi-rez computer games and want to build that 4-way SLi rig I mentioned. They require all kinds of clean power.

Anyway, good luck and be safe.

 

[prophecy]

I forgive you!

Thank very much! I'm french but not European, I'm canadian!

I've fully understood you explaination about voltage and it make total sense. According to your explanation that the voltage can drop to 90v I still ok with 12amp but very borderline. Voltage raise is good or as risked as voltage drop?

My room is closed right now and I will do my last grow in october. I will maybe do it with 600w over 1000w, 600w will take less amp!!??!?!?! I still don't know...! My panel was cold (the timer too) when I was growing with my 1000w, so I don't think the circuit was overload but burning the house and risk my life does not worth it.

Arc fault is the main fire cause in north america. Why insurance company don't force to install arc fault breaker in every house considering that is cheap and easy to install too?

The 2 others part mentionned in the first post are really essential too?

 

[cosmik debris]

Tabarnak! Quebecois n'est pas? No matter...haven't had a chance to use that since spending the shortest summer of my life in Port Cartier one week. Should have realized when you mentioned having 120 volt service (I believe the French have something else).

The U.S. and yes, even Canada (you are still part of Canada aren't you? ) have in fact adopted that as required in new construction, but not until fairly recently, and some outlying areas have been slow to adapt to the national codes.

Any voltage variation is unhealthy for electronics, motors and such. They prefer clean straight regulated power, which is why your ballast has a built in power regulator. Also because the ballast is actually changing the frequency of the power to better match the optimum requirements of their lamps. Surges or spikes can overload circuits that are only thermally protected because the heat build up doesn't happen at the speed of light, which is about how fast the electrons are traveling. Think of ground strike lightning as the ultimate over voltage situation.

Anyway, didn't mean to scare you off of using your big light. The addition of the AFCI on your circuit with the ballast should work just fine given the other measures already present in your equipment. The only complicating factor is that they are sometimes prone to nuisance trips, which for obvious reasons could be a serious problem for your new grow if undetected. There are ways of dealing with this issue but by and large they operate problem free and provide you with a superior level of protection.

I would seriously suggest adopting some of the other ideas presented in this thread as you can never really be too prepared. Consider the flame spread rate/flammability of the objects that you use in proximity to your lighting and electronics. Certain BoPET/Mylar laminations for example can be made self extinguishing whereas others may not, just check to see which you have if it's one of your chosen materials.

Also, hard-wired power distribution is always much preferred to extension cords and power strips plugged into wall outlets. As the outlet material ages the plastic tends to get more brittle and can sometimes crack from the occasional tugs and bumps that the cord plugs inserted into them experience. This can also cause a prong of your plug to weaken and break without being obvious. This does cause fires. Extension cords are made to be flexible so they are made of stranded wire. That means that to reach a given gauge or thickness many many strands of very tiny wire are twisted together and encased in a non-conductive plastic sheathing. As the cord ages the tiny wires inside begin to snap and break from continually being bent back and forth (metal fatigue such as when you wiggle a beer can pop top back and forth a few times before snapping it off). This most commonly happens at the back of the plug end where most of the strain from being pushed and pulled is felt. Copper is very ductile and resilient in this case, but it can and will eventually begin to break down. As it does the resistance to electrical flow will increase resulting in more heat and eventually...melting and possibly fire. Just think of an electric stove element, only one that can reach 1000 degrees.

The solid wire used in Romex and conduit runs is installed in a fixed position so most of that is avoided. It also resists corrosion and oxidation better because it has a smaller surface area where it leaves the insulated sheathing and is exposed to the air. Kind of the difference between why ground meat spoils so much faster than the whole cut that it was made from. Extension cords also frequently cause problems due to being undersized for the amp load placed on them. A 16 gauge extension cord plugged into a typical 15 amp socket will become the weak link since 15 amp house power is typically run in 14 gauge or heavier wire diameters (the lower the gauge number the thicker the wire and so the higher the current carrying ability of it). 14 gauge is normally rated for 15 amp service, 16 gauge for up to 13 amps, 18 gauge for 10 amps and so forth.

Having over-sized wire helps to assure lower resistance values and less likelihood of thermal issues at currents near the normally rated maximum of the circuit. For example 12 gauge wire is rated for 20 amps, so if you wire your gear with 12 gauge wire the 14 gauge supplying it from the 15 amp breaker in the panel will not physically be able to throw enough at it to cause a problem without tripping your AFCI. It isn't necessary but brings another issue to light.

There are times when half assed electricians or home owners have spliced or substituted lighter gauge wire just to save money, because the lighter gauge wire is easier to handle and route, out of ignorance, and even sometimes just through inattentiveness. Suppose someone had spliced a piece of 15 amp rated 14 gauge wire into a circuit that connected to a 20 amp breaker. I have seen examples where a circuit had 12 gauge leaving the panel and 12 gauge connected to the outlet, but someone had jumpered parts of the wiring in between with 14 gauge that is only rated for 15 amps. If subjected to amperage beyond its capacity the lighter gauge wire acts like a fuse and melts. Inside the wall of your house this can be catastrophic.

Whatever you decide to do it wouldn't be a bad idea to test your circuit wiring beforehand just to make sure that it is what it's supposed to be. Prepare for every eventuality and even when something unexpected happens you'll find you're in much better shape to respond.

 

[prophecy]

Tabarnak! Quebecois n'est pas? No matter...haven't had a chance to use that since spending the shortest summer of my life in Port Cartier one week. Should have realized when you mentioned having 120 volt service (I believe the French have something else).

Haha! Tabarnak is what I will say if the house burn!! Yes we still part of Canada. Them who want to sepaerate don't know anything about money.

There are times when half assed electricians or home owners have spliced or substituted lighter gauge wire just to save money, because the lighter gauge wire is easier to handle and route, out of ignorance, and even sometimes just through inattentiveness. Suppose someone had spliced a piece of 15 amp rated 14 gauge wire into a circuit that connected to a 20 amp breaker. I have seen examples where a circuit had 12 gauge leaving the panel and 12 gauge connected to the outlet, but someone had jumpered parts of the wiring in between with 14 gauge that is only rated for 15 amps. If subjected to amperage beyond its capacity the lighter gauge wire acts like a fuse and melts. Inside the wall of your house this can be catastrophic.

Whatever you decide to do it wouldn't be a bad idea to test your circuit wiring beforehand just to make sure that it is what it's supposed to be. Prepare for every eventuality and even when something unexpected happens you'll find you're in much better shape to respond.

Its the part that scare me the most! I don't know what gauge size that is installed in the walls. Like I said before everything ran cool except for the ballast but I was able to let my hand on it, still hot hot thought. I will relocate it shoot fresh air on it on my next grow.

How I can test my circuit?

Thank you very much!

 

[prophecy]

Hi!!

I talked to an electrician and he said that the Quebec hydro electric network is very very good. Voltage can drop -15 volt and raise +15 volt on very very short period.

I talked to him about arc fault breaker and he said that the ground will absorb the excess of electricity OR the breaker will snap off.

I also learn that most of the construction have big wire in the walls and divide into outlet. This wire can carry much more electricity than my outlet will need for my ballast. So, the wire can't overheat or be overload.

This is about Canada, Quebec.

 

[RobMarley420]

Very informative post. Lots of good info in there.

I don't even own a fire-extinguisher... I have LOTS of fire protection work to do.

 

[MaryJane51]

Didnt see this covered but maybe I just missed it but I have heard of people installing Arc fault protecters or GFCI's and having the bulbs when they "fire" up actuall trip the breaker. Anyone hear of this before? It seems like a good safety precaution but if it's tripping every time you fire up a bulb you'll never grow anything....

 

[Sinisterzane]

On my mobile phone system I have a smoke alarm that sends a text message if it goes off, it also has a water sensor of which is a 50 metre rope that you lay across the floor around the tanks etc. It also has one of these..

http://www.fireprotectionshop.co.uk/Details.cfm?ProdID=272&category=&secondary=59

These go off at 69 degrees

 

[cosmik debris]

Great link. Thanks for the lead. How about the 50 metre rope sensor? Where did you get that? Also the extinguisher made no mention of the cell phone tie. How did you accomplish that?

 

[OGL1]

Great info here, thanks contributors.

 

[Caravaggio]

If hiring an electrician to wire a grow house before beginning construction. What EXACTLY would you ask him to do and how would you do it without totally sounding like you're building out a grow house?

 

[overbudjet]

For fireproffing my growroom wall i put ceramic over it!

 

[Iffy]

Great post Mr Potter,
The last thing any of us want is to lose not just our grows but our homes too!
DIY wiring is something that needs to be taken seriously.
Stay safe

 

[Iffy]

For fireproffing my growroom wall i put ceramic over it!
[URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=12297&pictureid=289049&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL] [URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=12297&pictureid=289050&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL] [URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=12297&pictureid=289039&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL] [URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=12297&pictureid=289038&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL] [URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=12297&pictureid=289042&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL] [URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=12297&pictureid=289041&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL]

Wow, thats a hell of a tiling job mate - sure your name isn't overbudget?
Stay safe

 

[johnnybravo]

my grow is in the basement and all the electrical and plumbing are exposed. My growroom is a former woodworking area and the former owner installed sprinklers. I have one inside the grow, and one right outside near the sub panel and ballasts.

Worked out good for me.

I think if you have access to the plumbing, installing the sprinklers is easy. Looks like they just tapped into the cold water lines and soldered in the sprinklers.

so i'm gonna install these:

so that prevents sending smoke signal to blueface. now i need to mitigate water damage. these must be shut off manually once activated.
then i found this:

only problem, don't know what kind of power input they require. specs not on website.
http://www.diycontrols.com/p-7865-w...e-point-detection-and-automatic-shut-off.aspx
if my arc faults work, i won't have power. so maybe i use 12v car battery which is feasible me thinks.
thanx for all the great ideas everybody!

 

[johnnybravo]

ups is the answer!

 

[Ciscokid]

Great thread! The arc breaker is news to me. I'll have to pick up some of them. I never really thought of the fans causing fires. I'll have to time my room out for temp rising and set it up like that. Thanks!