feed line for 150 amp sub panel Q

[the gnome]

ok, wattage@1000 \divided by/ 120v = 8.3 amp draw
or for watt-1000 \/ 220v = 4.5 amp.

so @120v I can run 2-1000 lamps on a 20amp breaker on a #12-3 wire and I'll pull a 16.6 amp continuous load.
sounds a bit close?

but @220 i can still run a 20A *2-pole breaker* but only pull 13.5A continuous
that seems the better way to go but what about having 3 1000w lamps all kicking in
at once. is there a special consideration I need to know for that?


and this is what was said of the main feed for the sub-p
is this also the same for the wires and load on individual breakers?

I believe your wire needs to be 1/0 or greater before you can run it in parallel. The lug on the breaker needs to be listed to accept two wires also.

And remember that those 6 lights are going to be considered a "continuous load", on for more than 3 hours, so you have to count the load as 125% of actual draw from the ballasts.

 

[Hammerhead]

Thats OK just add another 20 amp breaker and balance the load. I added up every thing and split it evenly over 2 20a breakers. I can add 1 more 20a if needed. That would give you 8.3a per 20a. It also leaves room to add other things as needed up to 16a per 20a.. You will be surprised what you forget and add later.

The other choice is to use a 30a breaker but you would have to hook it up to your 20a outlets and I dont like doing that. Some would say that this is OK per code. rives can explain better then I can. I just dont think its safe to supply more v then the outlet is designed to use.

There should not be any issue with that. Again rives will explain. I have my DIY controller that uses a contact with a 120v trigger to turn on the 4 x 220v/ 2 x120v plus 6 120v constant(not timed). My 2 Lumatek fire first then the 1k fires last. It has a built in 16ms delay.

 

[rives]

what about having 3 1000w lamps all kicking in at once. is there a special consideration I need to know for that?

and this is what was said of the main feed for the sub-p
is this also the same for the wires and load on individual breakers?

Three lamps kicking in at once isn't the best situation, but shouldn't cause any problems.

Yes, the 80% (the inverse of the 125% quoted - same thing, just a different way to look at it) rule applies to any breaker upstream of the load.

 

[the gnome]

ok then all 6 lamps will draw
@120v=49.8 amps
@240v=25.2amps

the analog intermatic timer will take a 40a load with either 120 or 240

the way to go seems to be running the 6 lites @240v/25.2 amps
and 1 timer rated at 40amps will handle all 6 lites.
i can split 6 lites on 2 20amp 2-pole breakers
3 on each breaker

does this sound good?
another Q to be sure,
since I'll be running 13amps per breaker I can still use a #12-3 wire from the breaker.

if this is all good then i can use the 60amp sub panel and still be using just under 1/2 its rated capacity, right?
that would then give me lots of leeway amperage wise to run fans, dehuey's and other things too.

Three lamps kicking in at once isn't the best situation, but shouldn't cause any problems.

Yes, the 80% (the inverse of the 125% quoted - same thing, just a different way to look at it) rule applies to any breaker upstream of the load.

well if i run all 6 thru the 240v timer, I'll have all 6 coming on at once?
maybe for now I should just run everything @120v, put each lamp on its own circuit and used the $20 timers i have that have the 15minute variables and stagger them to come on a few minutes apart.
later when funds become available i can opt for a controller like hammer has that syncs all the lights to start 16ms apart.
Ive seen them and they aren't too cheap for an 8 lamp set up, but something i can get down the road

 

[rives]

That all works, with the possible exception below. The loads are going to be a little heavier than you have calculated - there are ballast losses to be considered, usually on the order of +/- 10%.

How are you planning to control two circuits through the timer? If you break the feed to the breakers with it, the whole panel will be dead, and I've never seen a timer like that with enough contacts to break two circuits.

*edit* Just caught your edit - yes, one timer would have all of the lights working at the same time.

 

[Hammerhead]

if you buy ballast that have internal delays they all wont fire at the same time. This is a great feature..

 

[the gnome]

hammer, what brand controller to you have?
edited
this looks good
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/50-amp-240v-power-box-p-1398.html

I haven't bought the ballasts yet, what brand have that internal delay feature?

 

[mowood3479]

if u run the lights on 220.. they will only draw 4.5 amps each...

 

[Hammerhead]

I bought a dxhydro unit and had to rebuild it to my satisfaction. Its still not to code. I have to remove the contactor and install it into it's own box. I can live with that until I have the time to take it apart to fix this. I changed almost everything that was installed. I replaced the 30a breaker with 2 20 a breakers. I changed all of the outlet to 20a industrial from the 15a Taiwan that where in it. Most of the wire was changed from 12-3 10-3 just because I like over kill on the electrical stuff and I had the wire.. For my install if I want to upgrade to 60a I would just change the main power line to the controller. I only need 50' my panel can go up to 125a I wont ever need that much. I dont ever see me needing 60a 40a is plenty for me. I like the 600 more then the 1k even though it just bought a 1k lol..

I used this wire . I like this stuff. Its very flexible. Min order is 50'
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/64soowpowercord.aspx

This is what you would need
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/44soowpowercord.aspx

 

[the gnome]

if u run the lights on 220.. they will only draw 4.5 amps each...

thinking on this...
and looking at the cost of everything i have to to to get the lights, timer, a sub panel, the breakers and the 90ft new wire to the sub panel etc etc.
i can just use my #2 wire i have for free and put it at the 200amp main on a what ever amp breaker to whatever the controller needs,
get a timed controller(as hammer does) for $200-$275 for 6-8 lites for the time and money I'll probably be about $100 difference or less i think
so i think it makes more sense to just get the controller now, and spend a little more and be done with it

I mean, I'll plan on getting the controller anyways down the road.


EDITED....
ok, i determined the wire size I already have for free, a couple hundred foot of it or more and its a #4 thwn
the guy at the elec. supply said its rated at 85amps if its THWN, checked online and it's correct.
i can get a 70amp sub panel for $35, so it looks like i can power the entire room now with my #4thwn

btw here is a great wire gauge /ampere chart that shows size-amps-and its respective casing on the wire

 

[Hammerhead]

your still going to need the power wire to feed the 60a sub panel..The #2 wire is only for the main incoming power. You cant use that for the 60a sub panel. In the main you would put a 60a breaker use the 4/4 line you will need to feed the 60a sub.. wire it for both
220v/120v that's why I used the 6/4 it has the natural you need..

 

[rives]

I'm not sure where I'm jumping in here on edits, but the #4 can be used to feed the sub, HH. Also, bear in mind that it is a code violation to run SO cord through a wall, floor, etc.

 

[the gnome]

not sure I'm following you hammer, or i didn't explain my self clearly.. probably both

but this is what I plan on doing now that i know what my wire can handle
ok, i have lots of #4 wire that's rated @ 85 amps
this is what i planned on doing...
from the existing 200amp main I'll put a breaker in it, say a 60 amp 2 pole breaker
from there i run it to my 60 amp sub panel in the bloom room, right?
and from there it should be all gravy, just have to decide how i want to set the lites up, on a controller thing like you have or separate circuits with timers etc etc

sound good?
the only thing I'm not following you on is when you said
*wire it for both
220v/120v that's why I used the 6/4 it has the natural you need.. *

when i wire the 60 amp subP it will be for 120 or 240 depending on if i use a single pole breaker(120v) or 2 pole(240v)

what do you mean by 6/4 it has the natural.
what is 6 and what is 4??
do you mean a neutral??

 

[Hammerhead]

I will live with that to. I like soow much more then the romex..I dont like that code. I cant ever see SOOW failing if its going through the floor... It's not like I can ever have someone inspect in the first place. Im doing the inspection lol. I just make sure its safe and will never cause a fire.. Im alrady working on the rely box its getting a upgrade from 1 single purpose contator to 3 realys. Got the relays and wire just need to put it all together..

I did not know I said he could not use #4 that's what I suggested? If i did that a mistype 4/4 is what you need... RED,BLK,GRN,WHT so you can wire up both 120 and 220 from that one cable. I did say that #2 is not what you want to use from your main to the sub. Thats only used for incoming power.. Anyway I can wire my 220v and my 120v from the same 6/4 wire I have coming from my main to my sub. the red,Blk is your 220v use 1 red or blk with the what for your 120v..Maybe rives can explain better..

The # stands for 4 gauge wire that has 4 conductors in the cable

 

[rives]

Yes, he meant neutral. 6/4 is 6 gauge wire with 4 conductors in the bundle. This terminology is used for both cord and romex. Your installation sounds good to me.

 

[rives]

I will live with that to. I like soow much more then the romex..I dont like that code. I cant ever see SOOW failing if its going through the floor... It's not like I can ever have someone inspect in the first place. I just make sure its safe and will never cause a fire..

Yep, I've seen it installed like that hundreds of times, and it is indeed far more durable than romex. Just thought you might like to be aware of the code on it.

 

[the gnome]

your still going to need the power wire to feed the 60a sub panel..The #2 wire is only for the main incoming power. You cant use that for the 60a sub panel. In the main you would put a 60a breaker use the 4/4 line you will need to feed the 60a sub.. wire it for both
220v/120v that's why I used the 6/4 it has the natural you need..

its not #2 wire, its #4,
and yes i can/have to use it because this is what i need to use to feed the 60amp sub panel from the 200amp existing main panel.
it will be the main incoming power to the 60amp sub,
the existing 200amp is already being fed from the meter base

Yes, he meant neutral. 6/4 is 6 gauge wire with 4 conductors in the bundle. This terminology is used for both cord and romex. Your installation sounds good to me.

ok.. the *natural* part is what threw me off,
I see it written like this with #10 and smaller guage---> #10-3
10ga. sized wire with 3 wires hot-neutral and ground.
oh, and hooking up a sub or main panel you can use a size smaller diameter wire for the ground,
this is code in the deep south

phew! ok... one last thing on wiring the sub panel.
the 200amp main is old and uses the older style 3 wire hookup, hot-neutral and ground, where you tie the ground+ neutral into the same ground/neutral bar.
things now by code are going with the ground and neutral on separate bars and we now need 4 wires instead of 3 in the box.

can i add another ground bar into the 200amp main, and use that to separate the Neu and Gnd?
or is it really necessary?

 

[Hammerhead]

Post 30 I read it as you where going to use #2 wire from the breaker to your sub and that cant be done. Now that we have all of that corrected you should be fine...

I dont think you can buy 4/4 with a smaller grd wire. I never seen it.. You would need to run all individual wires to do that. rives please correct me if i'm wrong. I want to be giving the correct info..I believe you can put the Neutral on the main grd. You can not put it on the subs grd. Install a buss bar for the Neutral in the sub. put your 4/4 Neutral wire on this buss the other end in the main goes to the grd buss. All of the 120v stuff can not be connected to this new Neutral buss in the sub pannel...Im pretty sure the sub panels will only come with the grd buss..Adding another one in the sub is easy just make sure its isolated from the grd..

 

[rives]

phew! ok... one last thing on wiring the sub panel. the 200amp main is old and uses the older style 3 wire hookup, hot-neutral and ground, where you tie the ground+ neutral into the same ground/neutral bar.
things now by code are going with the ground and neutral on separate bars and we now need 4 wires instead of 3 in the box.

can i add another ground bar into the 200amp main, and use that to separate the Neu and Gnd?
or is it really necessary?

Your ground should be derived at the panel, not come from the utility. You should have a ground rod and/or cold water line connection depending on the age of the installation. The main panel has both the grounds and the neutrals on the same buss, and any downstream subs should have them isolated from one another. This provides for one point for them to be bonded together, and avoids ground loop problems. When the busses are separated at the main, they are bonded together with a strap, long screw, or other means.

 

[Hammerhead]

cool I was correct I bought a few buss bars that have Isolation legs on them for future use. There made out of plastic I think.

The ballast that have the delay are the new Nano Extremes. there all diferant no 2 have the same timing so ea one will fire separately..Im not very found of C.A.P. They did a great job on theses new ballast. I just got mine it runs cooler then my 600 Lumatek.