Fan leaf removal?

[Guest]

I figured there would differing opinions so I'm glad to be hearing all the replies. Sounds like it's more a matter about how much plant material is removed and from where on the plant, maybe. Sure is easier to manage the plants with the slimming down, easier to water too. it's a question maybe of how extensive the defoliation is done? The girl that's holding off on the trim sure looks massive next to the rest.

 

[Spaventa]

I think my hesitation for clipping anything from the plants come from the fact that for 2 months you try to make the plant put out all the leaf matter/branches possible. Then intentionally cutting away what you just worried worked to grow. Ha! But I do understand it's for the good of the end result that makes it necessary.

Its about roots. If you flower without enough root, the plants don't reach potential. Removing leaves and growth tips strategically i.e.. the one that wouldn't amount to anything, does not reduce yield, it increases it because the energy and resources that would have been wasted on bottom growth goes into the tops.
Artificial lighting dosen't penetrate more than 18", and a lot less with flourescent so only the top 18" finished height will be bud so theres no sense in anyone growing tall plants indoor unless you top, train, defoliate and sometimes even 12/12 from seed.

 

[noreason]

Thanks Noreason, I can hear good arguments on both sides. What you say makes sense, but it seems there's good points for removal. Before I'd read your post, I had just finished clipping fan leaves from all but 1 of my SD ibl girls and had decided to not trim the last so I could run a comparison test. If you would be willing to use my untrimmed girl and look at pics, I would appreciate your advice on the lollypop method. I always like to try different things during a grow, kinda makes the time pass quicker. If you're able to do this, I will follow your direction no matter how drastic it might seem at the moment.


View Image View Image View Image View Image


This plant is all original past the 3rd node. Hopefully you can see enough to get me started.

Thanks, Keif

Keif I'll try to explain it easy.

You should remove node's tips. Just tips.

In the picture below they are called vegetative shoots

https://slideplayer.com/slide/8042479/25/images/1/Reproductive+shoot+%28flower%29.jpg


How many shoots? Where?

There is not a rule. Every cut has its own tendency to make more or less budsites, so each one need to be treated for its own. Also depending on environment the same cut can have a different tendency. Most influent factor is temperature.

What you want, basing on your environment (light/space), is to have enough bud sites, but not too many.
Like an apple tree, you choose to remove some little ones to give the possibility for the remaining ones to develop the right way.

Amnesia Haze core cut, a well known cut to say one, has very little need to be cleaned from node's tips before they become popcorn buds. It has a good stretch and does not produce so many budsites. It will never need a defoliation IMHO.

Exodus cheese UK cut, another well known cut, has a different tendency. Less stretch and more breanching/budsites production.
So it need a better clean than Amnesia.


Why you want to remove new shoots? Because they're not leaves, they are flowers, and they spend energies to be ready to make seeds. So you can take away all the nodes along a branch and leave where they are all the leaves. This way you can save a lot of leaves, without the energy conusming popcorn buds.
If you take away shoots when they're very young, the energy loss is very tiny.


On the contrary, I used this concept on last run of one of my cross because having the fear for mold in big colas, I let every single budsite to develop a popcorn bud, used later to make extracts.
This way plants are forced to put some energy into popcorn buds and avoid to fatten up the main colas too much. Ad I'm not talking about small colas.
You can see pictures in my thread if you want.

I also use the same concept to take care of mother plants, avoiding extreme branching/nodes production. Every week I take away, using just fingers, the little new nodes, leaving only those I want to leave. This way mothers can grow much better and happier, without losing energy if not wanted. I guess hormones also play a role. Without too many vegetative shoots plants can grow much better.


Other than that, every comparison is a good thing for a grower but be careful, because if you want a real answer you have to compare more plants. Better for a medium/long time. Then you will know what works better for you. Don't do a one-time experiment with few plants and stop, do more times if you really want to understand, and then, please share what you learned from it


About removing nodes, it just works, period. It's not rocket science.
About defoliation, I'm not really into it and I can only speak theoretically. I can hardly imagine I can have better results, better buds than what I have now, but yes, I can be wrong but at now I never seen anything really interesting about defoliating.

What I know is a developed leaf is not a dead weight at all.

 

[igrowone]

every technique has its place
for a micro grow chamber, defoliation is excellent for creating a well shaped plant that fits

 

[Guest]

Noreason, thanks much for the time you've put into outlining the method of working the plant for better yeild. Didn't pick this up til late, and will take some time to process the info. Couldn't get the picture link to work with my android tablet, will try it on my windows machine tomorrow. Think i've got the basics, just need to go over this more and will feedback with pics later.

thanks again

 

[jonesaa]

I remove the fan leaves starting in veg to control the way the plant grows, to keep the plant shorter, and to avoid overgrowing the limited space I have. Veg does take a bit longer, maybe an extra couple weeks or so but it works for me and the space I grow in.

This plant received first defoliation about 3 weeks in veg, and never skipped a beat. I was afraid that I might shock it and it would go the other way and stop growth, but 3 days after removing all fans and leaving the bud shoots the plant just went into rapid side branch growth. More bud sites opened up and more fans needed to be removed to allow for more light penetration. 3 weeks later changed light cycle to flower. Without stressing the plant too much I left the remaining fans to allow the plant to flower... So far During the flower cycle I have removed fan leaves at 10 days after the switch to flower, then again during the stretch only once. I plan to remove more fans again probably between days 45-50 then let the plant go till it's time to come down. Also I keep the fan leaves with the crystals on and remove the ones without the crystals.

I do this only to control the height and shape of the plant, and to keep the grow area well lit up. This plant is 4 weeks into flower under LED with supplemental CFL side lighting.

jonesy

 

[High Grade Only]

Strip em

 

[noreason]

Noreason, thanks much for the time you've put into outlining the method of working the plant for better yeild. Didn't pick this up til late, and will take some time to process the info. Couldn't get the picture link to work with my android tablet, will try it on my windows machine tomorrow. Think i've got the basics, just need to go over this more and will feedback with pics later.

thanks again

Link doesn't work for me too lol sorry.

here another image:

What I called node's tip or shoot in the image is called ''bud''.


Please note removing shoots will not give you better yield. It will avoid popcorn buds and at the same time the main colas will fatten up more, so let's say the overall quality will be better, but I don't think there is any big difference in terms of quantity.

 

[Tactical Farmer]

When flowering starts I just pluck a few fans every other day to minimize any possible shock.

Just start by pulling the biggest ones causing the most shading.

Most of the plucking will be done after stretch but if not just keep slowly plucking.

 

[Triplemfarms]

Even if they don't get light (but they get even in your setup imho) fan leaves are not dead weight.
Once a leaf becomes big enough,it start to be an energy producer for the plant.

If the leaf doesn't get light at all, it could die. Plant uses it adsorbing mineral elements and organic compounds.

If the leaf get a little of light, it can live and store various elements for the whole plant, maybe used later or maybe not.
Taking them away is not good for the plant imho.

What you want to do is to remove small flowering sprouts, that can become popcorn buds influencing overall quality.

If you do lollypopping the right way, there is absolutely no need to remove any green form a plant. It makes no sense in most of the cases IMHO.

I disagree wholeheartedly. If you dont defoliate big outdoor plants, they will begin to shed useless leaves, they turn yellow and die.... EVEN when in direct sunlight.

You gotta push against the girls if you want them to push back. A lazy plant never yeilded good at all.
You're actually FREEING up resources for the plant to use towards new growth.

NOT TO MENTION the increased airflow, reducing mold and infestations by A LOT.

theres a line and you can definitely cross it on accident, and its negative.... but if you're growing monsters its a necessity

 

[Guest]

here another image:

View Image

What I called node's tip or shoot in the image is called ''bud''.


Please note removing shoots will not give you better yield. It will avoid popcorn buds and at the same time the main colas will fatten up more, so let's say the overall quality will be better, but I don't think there is any big difference in terms of quantity.

I'm still working my way thru your great garden thread, sure glad to be seeing how you grow plants and have all the pics and detailed explanantion. A picture truly is worth a 1000 words for how your doing things. Honestly, it's a lot to take in but worth the time even though my basic method of growing is different than yours, dirt vs hydro. I realize the subject of manipulating the plant as we're discussing still applies for the most part, no matter whether dirt or coco/hydro.

I also understand your statement in your earlier post saying that it takes many plants grown and judged to draw any meaningful conclusions about a particular technique used in a grow cycle. I had planned to try this with 1 plant of my present grow but now I'm thinking it may be a little late in flower and might not be a good choice, just want to be sure that I can give this my best shot.

I have a dozen of ACE's Panama standard seedlings just started that I planned to grow for an extended time and take cuts, make a few beans maybe, and just really take my time/ have fun. I think this would be the a better time to explore a new technique such as you've had great success with.

Can't say enough about how impressed I am with what I'm seeing in your thread. My work career was involved with installing and maintaining equipment that pumped liquids and used many of the kind of tubes, fittings and things I'm seeing in your pics. It would be second nature for me to work with the hardware involved with the hydroponic grow world. Very tempting to jump in, but I'll probably stay in the dirt.

 

[Guest]

theres a line and you can definitely cross it on accident, and its negative

Yes, that's exactly what motivated me to start the thread. I hate that feeling of having made a mistake that you could have avoided with a little more research

 

[noreason]

I disagree wholeheartedly. If you dont defoliate big outdoor plants, they will begin to shed useless leaves, they turn yellow and die.... EVEN when in direct sunlight.

Were talking about plants in general, not only big outdoor ones.
However that's what I was talking about:

If the leaf doesn't get light at all, it could die. Plant uses it adsorbing mineral elements and organic compounds.

Guess why we call mobile and immobile elements.

You gotta push against the girls if you want them to push back. A lazy plant never yeilded good at all.

I don't understand that, I don't go against my plants and my yield is usually in the average, maybe also a little better for the hydro thing, so for me it doesn't make sense, sorry.

You're actually FREEING up resources for the plant to use towards new growth.

Freeing what resources from where?

NOT TO MENTION the increased airflow, reducing mold and infestations by A LOT.

Never had mold in the lower part of the growing area. Most of the risk is about big colas, and they're usually in the higher part of the canopy.
About pests...removing leaves can help...but pest should haven't be there imho.

 

[noreason]

Can't say enough about how impressed I am with what I'm seeing in your thread. My work career was involved with installing and maintaining equipment that pumped liquids and used many of the kind of tubes, fittings and things I'm seeing in your pics. It would be second nature for me to work with the hardware involved with the hydroponic grow world. Very tempting to jump in, but I'll probably stay in the dirt.

You can take a great advantage of your career bro, give it just a try. Do it in the best way with a DIY setup.
Grow the same cut you always smoke, note the differences between dirt and hydro, the flowers shape, terps, yield and everything.
Then you can really decide what's the best for you. I miss growing in dirt or coco because in hydro I can't move my plants, take them one by one, look leaves, stems, flowers, take pictures and so on...

 

[Triplemfarms]

Thats why i specified outside.

 

[brendon420]

yall better be eating all these leaves you're taking off....
nutrient dense plant

next huge thing is going to be food with weed leaves in it that dont get you high
so chic
justt watch

 

[Guest]

Here's a quick update on the results of my 2 plants that received a combination of some fan leaf removal, plus some pinching of small buds that would probably not amount to much due to location, restricted light. I've no way of knowing what these 2 would have looked like with no removal of anything, but I think they have benefited from what's been done. I really went lite on how much was removed, fans vs small buds, but wanted to do a bit of both. I'm seeing enough favorable results to believe one or the other is a good practice going forward.

pic from 4/5, 2 weeks from flip

Today, 2 weeks later

I'll update this thread along the way every couple weeks til finish.