F1 not stable?

[de145]

I see that Orient Express (for example) is listed on the Ace site as an F1 hybrid. In the world of garden vegetables and flowers an f1 hybrid means almost always that each seed is going to grow an identical plant.

However in these forums it's said there are different phenotypes of Orient Express.

Does this mean that one or both parents of Orient Express did not come from a stable inbred line?

 

[xmobotx]

could they be talking about making crosses of the F1s and pheno hunting the F2s?

 

[Infinitesimal]

I see that Orient Express (for example) is listed on the Ace site as an F1 hybrid. In the world of garden vegetables and flowers an f1 hybrid means almost always that each seed is going to grow an identical plant.

However in these forums it's said there are different phenotypes of Orient Express.

Does this mean that one or both parents of Orient Express did not come from a stable inbred line?

no, it means that there is a misunderstanding about the meaning of stability and cannabis heredity in general...

first...even in vegetables there are phenotypes, though more uniform than cannabis, some plants are more vigorous and or may yield more larger fruits etc etc...

and second... fruit trees such as apple, citrus, strawberry plants and many others also don't reproduce reliably from seed meaning that phenotypic expression ranges greatly from one individual to the next... it is un-avoidable and just how certain species work...

using humans for example... lets imagine a single man and wife couple has 16 kids over the years (all girls)... now are those 16 girls going to grow up into identical women? O'course not... even though each of their DNA comes from the same two people, because of the nature of recombinant genetics and the vast possibilities that receiving two separate haploid copies of the parental genetic code holds...

some of those girls will likely end up with some noticeable similarities and some may not look related at all but each one is an individual and there is likely one that is the "sexiest" of the group... if you know what I mean

now that said... some families have very strong resemblances and likewise some strains can be "stable" for a few traits... which will guarantee to certain odds (3/4, 1/3, 1/4, 1/10 etc etc) at what rate the desired traits can be found among the population... but there will always be a minority (compared to the populations average) of superior individuals within a family.

EDIT: Also, in regards to stability in a cannabis strain... it can be stable for certain traits and not for others... for example one of my strains expresses only three minor variations throughout growth... they are very stable for growth pattern, branch structure, vigor, trichome coverage, resin production and lime dominant smells... but at the same time vary a bit in flower structure, flowering time, tastes yield and effects... so when growing them some people may say "very stable" cause they nearly look like clones while growing... but another person may say they are "unstable" because the buds produced by some plants may be considerably different from buds produced by others of the same strain... so it depends on what traits you are looking for and what your definition of "stable" is

so in short... if you want each plant to be identical you must do like the farmers do with most crops and plant cuttings (clones) or wait until cannabis tissue cultures are commercially available... but there will aways be variety in cannabis seeds... and that is a good thing... if it were not for that we would not have the elasticity with the plant that allows us to continually improve upon and diversify the plants aromas flavors and sensations responsible for all the wonderful varieties available this day and age.

I somewhat liken cannabis seeds to lotto tickets (just with much better odds) you buy the tickets you think will give you the best chance... some may be duds, some may be average but still really good (a ticket or 5 bucks) but with cannabis seeds about 1 in every 4-5 packs or 20-30 females is the jackpot winner!

every cannabis seeds holds the potential to be the new best plant ever... its all about genetic selection and odds... but if each seedling were identical then no one would ever find those plants that are considered special cause they would all be the same... you may prefer the one with a slightly different taste or maybe the more potent one... so relish the variations that cannabis offers... don't be scared of it

 

[Galactic]

many of ace lines are actually f2+, definitely work their lines...

 

[The Hatter]

I see that Orient Express (for example) is listed on the Ace site as an F1 hybrid. In the world of garden vegetables and flowers an f1 hybrid means almost always that each seed is going to grow an identical plant.

However in these forums it's said there are different phenotypes of Orient Express.

Does this mean that one or both parents of Orient Express did not come from a stable inbred line?

F1's are not stabilized but Orient Express is no longer an F1. It is quite a few generations in now. I asked this same question and was told by the breeders that it's just an old description that hasn't been updated. Some Ace strains are very stabilized, like F6 and the majority are at least a few generations stabilized from what I remember. Orient Express was quite uniform for me.

 

[de145]

so in short... if you want each plant to be identical you must do like the farmers do with most crops and plant cuttings (clones) or wait until cannabis tissue cultures are commercially available...

I don't think I understand what you are trying to say because it's completely false from what I understand.

It's well known and established that an f1 hybrid seeds of a tomato, for example, produced from parents that are inbred lines and stable will be incredibly uniform and identical and anyone who has ever planted a garden from commercial f1 seeds knows this to be true.

I know some plants are almost impossible to isolate for breeding purposes because of self fertility etc but this clearly doesn't apply here with cannabis.

As far as I know the only possible reason for varying phenotypes in an f1 hybrid is because one or both parents are not inbred, stable lines, are you saying that cannabis doesn't follow this rule?

 

[Infinitesimal]

I don't think I understand what you are trying to say because it's completely false from what I understand.

It's well known and established that an f1 hybrid seeds of a tomato, for example, produced from parents that are inbred lines and stable will be incredibly uniform and identical and anyone who has ever planted a garden from commercial f1 seeds knows this to be true.

I know some plants are almost impossible to isolate for breeding purposes because of self fertility etc but this clearly doesn't apply here with cannabis.

As far as I know the only possible reason for varying phenotypes in an f1 hybrid is because one or both parents are not inbred, stable lines, are you saying that cannabis doesn't follow this rule?

have you ever grown cannabis from seed before?

some tomato plants from the same pack will be taller than others, some will produce larger fruits, some will produce more fruits... these are phenotypic variations... subtle maybe but phenotypes none the less... if "as far as what you know" could be considered a "rule" then no cannabis does not follow... nor do apple trees citrus trees strawberries and many other plant types... that, in order to produce homogenous crops, must be propagated asexually

 

[Infinitesimal]

cannabis breeds a lot like people... I don't care how "stable/true breeding" a couple's family tree is... their children will not be identical

 

[xmobotx]

i m working w/ some F1s and what i m seeing conforms to what infinitesimal is saying
same for flowers and vegetables
they will be similar; they will not be exact copies

interestingly; my 1st reply is basically the answer to your original question re; orient express ~though quite by accident {was speaking more to what your sources might be}

 

[scai]

Well, I'm glad that they are not uniform! Copies of each other.
Because it gives you the pleasure to choose.
Pleasure to see many expressions on same plant, and find keepers.

But anyone who is new to this culture, in my opinion, they are stable enough.They are cannabis, high is what has been promised (that is, if you grow properly) and they can be put to flower cutting back light..
There are so many other worries with these plants than genes..

 

[xmobotx]

i agree! that diversity can be a big part of the joy we get from this plant

it seems like there is always something to intrigue us about and foster some in depth conversations

 

[de145]

i agree! that diversity can be a big part of the joy we get from this plant

Unfortunately what that diversity actually translates in the real world with many seed breeders (not necessarily Ace who have been pretty good consistency wise with the strains I've tried so far) is you get a whole bunch of substandard phenotypes and maybe one in 20 is a keeper.

There are many circumstances, particularly for medical users, where you want a certain thing to be as advertised and you can't afford to grow 20 or 50 or a hundred to find the good one.

I just like to know up front what I'm getting into and whether it's worth the investment or not.

 

[de145]

have you ever grown cannabis from seed before?

some tomato plants from the same pack will be taller than others, some will produce larger fruits, some will produce more fruits... these are phenotypic variations... subtle maybe but phenotypes none the less... if "as far as what you know" could be considered a "rule" then no cannabis does not follow... nor do apple trees citrus trees strawberries and many other plant types... that, in order to produce homogenous crops, must be propagated asexually

Yes, I'm growing for medical reasons primarily and I've gone through many different strains from different breeders attempting to find meds for 3 different conditions.

I really have to disagree with you, what you're saying doesn't jive with my experience. I think maybe you are confusing open pollinated seeds with commercially produced f1 seeds.

Very few people grow apples or citrus or strawberries from seeds and I never have so perhaps you are correct in those cases but it would take many years to really tell if they were identical or not, perhaps not a good example?

I've *never* experienced any noticeable variety from commercial packets of f1 veggie and garden seeds, and by co-incidence I do happen to start tomatoes from commercial f1 seed packets for many years now. I don't like to speak to anything I haven't personally experienced and I'm not talking out of my ass here, any avid veggie gardener will tell you the same thing though.

Occasionally one of those will be a non starter but a whole tray of them as seedlings are as identical as anything you will see and no variation as they mature either.

The entire commercial garden seed suppliers industry has at it's foundation the reliability of their f1 seeds, what you say is bizarre.

I have also grown open pollinated veggies and tomatoes and *those* ones definitely vary considerably one to another.

And I've also grown open pollinated cannabis plants from a place that collects them in the "wild" and sells them. I tried some Gharwali Jungli this way and of course they had a great deal of variety as well.

I guess the best thing would be if the vendors of seeds would state right in their descriptions the phenotypical varities you can expect rather than some genetic or botanical terminology that is probably misused many times.

 

[Infinitesimal]

Yes, I'm growing for medical reasons primarily and I've gone through many different strains from different breeders attempting to find meds for 3 different conditions.

I really have to disagree with you, what you're saying doesn't jive with my experience. I think maybe you are confusing open pollinated seeds with commercially produced f1 seeds.

Very few people grow apples or citrus or strawberries from seeds and I never have so perhaps you are correct in those cases but it would take many years to really tell if they were identical or not, perhaps not a good example?

I've *never* experienced any noticeable variety from commercial packets of f1 veggie and garden seeds, and by co-incidence I do happen to start tomatoes from commercial f1 seed packets for many years now. I don't like to speak to anything I haven't personally experienced and I'm not talking out of my ass here, any avid veggie gardener will tell you the same thing though.

Occasionally one of those will be a non starter but a whole tray of them as seedlings are as identical as anything you will see and no variation as they mature either.

The entire commercial garden seed suppliers industry has at it's foundation the reliability of their f1 seeds, what you say is bizarre.

I have also grown open pollinated veggies and tomatoes and *those* ones definitely vary considerably one to another.

And I've also grown open pollinated cannabis plants from a place that collects them in the "wild" and sells them. I tried some Gharwali Jungli this way and of course they had a great deal of variety as well.

I guess the best thing would be if the vendors of seeds would state right in their descriptions the phenotypical varities you can expect rather than some genetic or botanical terminology that is probably misused many times.

OK then, it's your world man, cannabis and tomatoes are essentially the same thing and their seeds crops should be equally homogenous... what ever you say man...

In REALITY... Cannabis is an extremely unique and extremely complex species among the plant kingdom... most all that (you may think) you know of general gardening does and will not pertain to cannabis both in its growth or breeding... so you can not compare your experience in your veggie garden... sorry (and I have had veggie gardens myself and no each plant is not identical only clones are)

I guess I don't understand, you started the thread with a question but it seems you have all the answers already... I don't get it... you should wright a book to tell us how stable F1 cannabis seeds should be and how exactly to breed them that way

if you really want to understand more and be able to actually relate the information or offer any substance to the topic you really need to read a book that is strictly dedicated to cannabis breeding otherwise you are just doing what you say you don't like... "I don't like to speak to anything I haven't personally experienced and I'm not talking out of my ass here" -de145

 

[xmobotx]

WTF ever~ i am an avid gardener and i just did say that you would find *some* diversity in F1 vegetable seeds {seeing as i have and do}

all the moreso in the canna industry where you are dealing w/ an underground market and claiims of vendors may not be as precise as we would like

esp in consideration of the FACT that most of what is out there in canna seeds is polyhybrids and "fortunate crosses" made by someone who is figuring it out as they go

frankly i m not too big on asking a question and scoffing at the answer either

 

[oldchuck]

I agree that Cannabis Sativa L. is an extremely complex and unique plant species and we are a long way from a good understanding of her. I also share de145s struggle to find the best stain for specific conditions.

For some idea of the difficulties and controversies involved take a look at the "Everybody's a breeder" thread in the strains forum.

Probably the best strategy a little grower can follow is to eventually score the "right" mother plant and then keep taking clones forever.

 

[scai]

Even if you look something for medical reasons...there might be one out of 10 that is good for your condition?
Cannabis nowadays has normaly very wide spectrum on genes.Most cultivars have both indica and sativa in their genes.

I don't know if there is really even one strain that can boast that it always delivers the same?

Never seen one, that all the progeny is looksalike or have same effect?

From my view of point you are asking impossible?
There will always be phenos, how many, it impossible to say...

F1 is not the one you want to look for (f1 is for us, who will like to select different phenos and breed on), maybe you should look something like F6 or f7..and further on...

 

[mayan]

I look upon each plant from each seed as being a different jewel in the crown, unlike any other. And let's don't forget about the subjective - from day to day -minute by minute- something may affect me differently depending upon where I'm at physically/psychologically/spiritually, etc. etc.

 

[de145]

I guess I don't understand, you started the thread with a question but it seems you have all the answers already... I don't get it...

You are correct, I did ask a question, unfortunately you jumped in with your uninvited and I personally think, incorrect, lecture on genetics and took my thread elsewhere and so I still don't know if the parents of OE are stable inbred lines or not.

It's not the end of the world either way, I'm just curious how stable Orient Express is so I know whether it's worthwhile to pop more beans or keep them as backup and assume the ones I have are probably typical of the ones I might get.

 

[inquest]

Yes The parents of commercial F1 Hybrids are HIGHLY inbred. To the point of being worthless for anyting other than being bred to another highly inbred, BUT for different attributes, plant. The offspring from a well thought out and tested breeding of this nature will be very homogenous. And the F2 generation will fall apart like crazy! And now the gardener goes back to the store for more F1's.

The simple fact here is that cannabis is illegal basically everywhere, save North Korea. Nobody is doing commercial style breeding with cannabis and offering seeds to the masses. Because of this you will have to live with some variety.


OE is about as stable as anything you or I can purchase.