Everybody a breeder ?

[Tom Hill]

Very good TOM,thanks!

Totally understood,now my brains starting to work again...

Question:what if we skipped passed the S1 and went to S3 by selecting the 1
best matching, making S2 from it and doing the same for S3 asuming we are getting
that 1 that looks like the first S1,is that possible or to long a shot???
THanx again!!

As you get deeper in S2 S3 etc, heterozygosity wanes to the tune of 50% each generation and the line will become more and more prepotent as a whole. However, the further you go, the more important it is to be doing this with a higher number of families as you will be culling some due to inbreeding depression before acceptable goals are met.

 

[OLDproLg]

SHUCKS 50% oh well.....

Got it,i was hoping for 70 or 80% but its better than 5%!!

TOM,im kinda stunted on the value of selfing the 1 individual strong or weak?
for instance say i DID find a good one that had about mmm 50% for the first S1,
that would be ok right...a strong girl!!
NOW,what would happen if i chose a weak individual,and she only brought 10% true??
1 out of 10 that looked most like the chosen girl,even though we know she is weak,
can we use that 1 that looks good anyhow????...and further S2 an 3 it???
Again this is for everybody,thanx!

 

[Tom Hill]

If it was corn I would say shoot for higher, but drug cannabis is a lot more complex than corn. You could certainly continue (S3+) and see how far above that mark you can attain, some of those efforts will be succesful, and some won't.

But yes, any drug cannabis plant whose selfed progeny resembles her to the tune of 50%+, I would say is a very strong candidate to concider for further breeding.

Yes, you can use that 1 of 30 in that family of S1's to continue on to the S2. You might think the blue family is doing better at the S1 because it has a higher number of progeny resembling the parent. when all of the sudden you hit paydirt selfing that one individual in the black family and those S2's leap ahead of all others with a high percentage of outstanding individuals.

 

[Weird]

Well, that's quite easy.
Markers can be isolated and appraised using statistics involved in correlation in population studies.

Correct but in context to my question, WHO HERE can read genetic markers from big test populations to determine the basis for trait selection?

the point of my statement is this (and if I am correct we both agree on this one) what is the scientific basis for choosing which type of high I prefer, or the strength, or the duration, or the flavor, or aroma?

These are the traits for whom the basis of trait perfection is subjective regardless of how science measures it.

I like a strong racy sativa, not everyone does. I like pot that smells like incense or skunk, not everyone does. I like pot that is very strong and keeps you high for hours, many people I smoke with find my smoke indica hybrids too narcotic.

Most of the basis of the traits I select are preferential

I do not try to get a plant to deviate from its natural disposition to express in my environment so improving traits other than the ones that matter to me become irrelevant.

I bridge any lack in genetics with cultivation technique or environmental control which is why I feel even physical traits are subjective because cultivation is influenced by the environment skill base of the grower.

 

[Tom Hill]

You have no points Weird you just wanna fight for your right to be a hack and that is fine.

""""I bridge any lack in genetics with cultivation technique or environmental control""""

LMAO and spitting coffee through my nose,,,, of course you do sweetheart, of course you do...

 

[bombadil.360]

Bombadil.360,

What makes for a healthy population is heterozygosity and genetic diversity. As to proper collection of seed/how much material is needed, the answer will change depending on the rareness of genes required to complete the diversity we are after, but the more the better is always the correct answer. Eg if the gene/s required to provide outstanding resistance to X pathogen occurs in one of twenty individuals within the population, then we must collect seed from a high enough number of individuals to provide a high enough probability of capturing that.

thank you Tom, that is one of the clearest answers to the question I've came across so far.

peace!

 

[Weird]

You have no points Weird you just wanna fight for your right to be a hack and that is fine.

""""I bridge any lack in genetics with cultivation technique or environmental control""""

LMAO and spitting coffee through my nose,,,, of course you do sweetheart, of course you do...

So tom your saying plant disease resistance cant be bolstered by beneficial bacteria in the rhizopshere?

your also saying I cant control the PH variance to buffer against he effects of ph sensitivity?

your also saying I can't control temperature, including the variance between night and daytime temperatures?

you also saying I can't use environmental controls to effect secondary metabolite production throughout the plants growth cycle?

You also saying I can't control humidity or air quality to reduce pathogens?

you also saying I can't improve overall results when it comes to low yielding phenos by plant number density and training techniques?

I can come up with pages of these examples and I have anecdotal evidence in pictures to prove I use them.

this is off the top of my head I have a weekend to get to but Ill be glad to come back and show pictures of how I use all of those mentioned and more to achieve a differential in results.

I don't have to go past the information in these forums to prove what I am saying about cultivation technique and environmental control.

 

[foomar]

Have grown out over 300 of my own one on one poly cross over the last few years , and recorded basic details.

From 170 girls i found five identical plants of a desirable minor variation , cannot be told apart from clones.

The first one to surface was number 57 , and a lot of males eating space and resources , if i had stopped at 30 i would never have seen it , but would have if they were selfed.

It would be good to have a backup with a higher incidence than this , chooseing males and growing out a decent number could take me years.


Selfing these five plants and growing out 30+ of each would take a lot less time and space and is more achievable for hobby growers and amateur pollen tossers like me , hopefully one line would be better.

The number of plants to test just two males independantly on them would be huge , 600 plants to see 30 girls of each and a lottery at this point.


They are not S1,s but are indistinguishable at any stage and stable , would the same principle apply and be a reasonable choice to move forward ?

 

[Tom Hill]

Weird you don't breed for any of those things you have said as much already. What I am trying to tell you is that you do not need to use marker assisted selection to more effectively breed for the things you do breed for. You can simply self the candidates, observe the progeny, and ascertain the very same type of information that marker assisted breeding would provide you with.

 

[Tom Hill]

Have grown out over 300 of my own one on one poly cross over the last few years , and recorded basic details.

From 170 girls i found five identical plants of a desirable minor variation , cannot be told apart from clones.

The first one to surface was number 57 , and a lot of males eating space and resources , if i had stopped at 30 i would never have seen it , but would have if they were selfed.

It would be good to have a backup with a higher incidence than this , chooseing males and growing out a decent number could take me years.


Selfing these five plants and growing out 30+ of each would take a lot less time and space and is more achievable for hobby growers and amateur pollen tossers like me , hopefully one line would be better.

The number of plants to test just two males independantly on them would be huge , 600 plants to see 30 girls of each and a lottery at this point.


They are not S1,s but are indistinguishable at any stage and stable , would the same principle apply and be a reasonable choice to move forward ?

Yes yes and yes.

 

[Nunsacred]

From 170 girls i found five

That's cool.
Do you wish you had selfed the original parents or are you now glad to have selected under harder conditions and got sensible variation around your chosen traits?

You could easily 'save progress' now by reversing cuttings from all 5 and doing a 5-way cross to generate a pool of seed from that.

Then the serious intensive breeding can be measured against that pool for proof of progress towards some uniformity
without loss of vigour, and you have a safety line if your later lines go wrong.

edit :
Personally though I would dust with 2 brothers of the 5, because I'm extra stubbornly against inbreeding at early stages

 

[Storm Shadow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8LE69g9lI0

A lil Halftime show for this Main Event!

 

[stickshift]

So tom your saying plant disease resistance cant be bolstered by beneficial bacteria in the rhizopshere?

your also saying I cant control the PH variance to buffer against he effects of ph sensitivity?

your also saying I can't control temperature, including the variance between night and daytime temperatures?

you also saying I can't use environmental controls to effect secondary metabolite production throughout the plants growth cycle?

You also saying I can't control humidity or air quality to reduce pathogens?

you also saying I can't improve overall results when it comes to low yielding phenos by plant number density and training techniques?

I can come up with pages of these examples and I have anecdotal evidence in pictures to prove I use them.

this is off the top of my head I have a weekend to get to but Ill be glad to come back and show pictures of how I use all of those mentioned and more to achieve a differential in results.

I don't have to go past the information in these forums to prove what I am saying about cultivation technique and environmental control.

You are describing having an enviro to have the plant "dialed in", we can all do these things and do? what is your point? the bold bit is the problematic part. You seem to say that all the plants respond in this enviro they have been bought up in.. well that's to be expected. You have a plant that scores well in that given environment, take it out of that and will its overall score hold true? or will it fail in the new environment?.

That said if you are breeding for one specific target environment, surely your aim is superior gene types to suit that target populations environment? and thus once the target or stand out plants that are found to suit this environment are found you'd surely realise it makes sense to then self them? (and then cross against each other to see if they nic favorably to suit that target environment).

 

[Infinitesimal]

So tom your saying plant disease resistance cant be bolstered by beneficial bacteria in the rhizopshere?

your also saying I cant control the PH variance to buffer against he effects of ph sensitivity?

your also saying I can't control temperature, including the variance between night and daytime temperatures?

you also saying I can't use environmental controls to effect secondary metabolite production throughout the plants growth cycle?

You also saying I can't control humidity or air quality to reduce pathogens?

you also saying I can't improve overall results when it comes to low yielding phenos by plant number density and training techniques?

I can come up with pages of these examples and I have anecdotal evidence in pictures to prove I use them.

this is off the top of my head I have a weekend to get to but Ill be glad to come back and show pictures of how I use all of those mentioned and more to achieve a differential in results.

I don't have to go past the information in these forums to prove what I am saying about cultivation technique and environmental control.

FWIW...

this is all cultivation/growing tech... and plays no role in determining genetic inheritance... "you can polish a turd but you can't squeeze it into a diamond" meaning you can "dial in" that female you are breeding with but that doesn't increase the value of her offspring.


what you need to do is model your environment after a natural environment that the genotype you are investigating evolved for then using the advantage of numbers, pick only the best individuals that thrive in that environment to further the next generations... and that is how you can affect your breeding through environment... not by simply changing the environment a single female is raised in but only by changing the environment for the population as a whole

 

[mega72]

Haha Storm Shadow.

...And in this corner, nature boy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSLb0Ov-jHU

 

[stickshift]

Yes & yes.

Some would have a tendency to freak even later on when false light was allowed tho.^^ ( but never when in total dark)

I'd say you get like 75% females, and like 25% of these females would be phrone to freak under influence of false light.
Remainder would be 12.5 % males, 12.5% early hermies.

NB. In my batches. ^^ ( I can't know the genetic make up of others ppls plants ofc.)

Plants I bred him out to where: Mindbender, Californian Orange, Cannabia, White Russian, Bubbelgum.

I feel better to answer in this thread than here;

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=137117&page=20

but for clarity it was myself who marked the post down, feel free to call me an asshole etc.

 

[Weird]

Weird you don't breed for any of those things you have said as much already. What I am trying to tell you is that you do not need to use marker assisted selection to more effectively breed for the things you do breed for. You can simply self the candidates, observe the progeny, and ascertain the very same type of information that marker assisted breeding would provide you with.

No Tom what I have been saying is my selections are made primarily based on the nature of secondary metabolite production (cannabinoids. flavanoids, etc) . Before I plant a seed (by smoking the bud i take the seed from) and after they are planted (smoking the progeny). I don't breed past a selected candidate that meets my needs, thus the context and relativity comments.

Remember most of the seeds I planted were from bag seed so the only experience I was seeking to replicate were the experience that is dictated by secondary metabolites.

Also I never said you need marker assisted science to breed I just said you cant apply quantified genetics if you don't which makes your testimony of success anecdotal as mine are.

But lets get to the bigger picture here

people grow pot for secondary metabolites, people smoke if for the secondary metabolites, modern scientific breeders are concerned primarily with secondary metabolites.

Cant get high on shape, size, color, yield, maturation rate, leaf to calyx ratio, and the plethora of other physical traits you seek to preserve and improve upon, but you can take a mediocre physical phenotype that has a superior chemical phenotype and use cultivation technique and environmental control to get a fair result.

Conversely you can use environmental cues to force a greater frequency of expression improve the frequency a desired phenotype appears.

You want a strain with that is not sensitive to PH fluctuation, grow it in a environment with a fluctuating PH and see how it effects expression of the traits you are concerned with.

It doesn't matter what gene is influenced by the expression it matters if you can observe which one is (unless you have the genome mapped and are using gene analysis)

Now grow the same all the same progeny in a ecosystem without ph variation and tell me how it effects selection? Tell me if you can tell anecdotal evidence from the population which ones have the gene and which ones don't?

its no different growing and selecting on drought resistance and making your selection were no drought conditions exist.

You want to see if your progeny have drought resistance in their makeup, whats the best way to force the expression?

Growing in a place were NO drought condition exists?

Now add a tropical sativa brew for height yield and chemical phenotype and grow it in an environment that doesn't allow for a greater than 8 foot height and tell me how the environment effects selection.

now chemovar is not reliant on environment but the expression of the metabolites your going to smoke and judge it by are

if you grow your progeny in an outdoor environment they will express differently than the same progeny grown in an indoor environment ( the variance will depend on the difference of the environments)

These differences matter in the selection of progeny and bias the ratio of expression the breeder experiences when making a selection

this is were the relativity part matters because not everyone is breeding outdoors for all environments and there are very few breeders using big numbers outdoors to preserve robust genotypes.

with that said we still see a huge amount of improved cultivars (from a chemical phenotype standpoint and this is what it is all about) grown in small numbers and closed environments.

It would be great if every breeder were tom hill but tom hill cant breed every strain of weed properly, in fact you have enough work with your own genes

so I guess in the end regardless of what you say, as long as people buy seed cause they want a specific chemical phenotype and the breeding world works the way it works not only will people still be buying hack seeds but the cultivars (in an aggregate sense) will continue to improve regardless

you want to improve it with science, well why don't you crusade against prohibition so people can run those numbers instead of prohibition forcing many breeders to hack because they have to use other means to achieve the same end.

Prohibition forced people indoors working with low plant numbers, not ignorance or a lack of desire but than again you know this

 

[Tom Hill]

Weird what you are breeding for is as inconsequential as all of this other crap dribbling from your mouth. Your 'selection' methods, are still that of a hack. And no amount of bs you can come up with will change that. The only thing that changes that, is you understanding and putting some of that science/maths to work for you. I really do not give a crap either way.

 

[Bag]

i think weird makes sense, i make seeds with plants that i like the buzz from first and foremost . secondary metabolites FTW

edit ; why all the harsh words and name calling like 7th grade closet homosexual picking on the nerdy kids cause they are smarter than them ?

 

[Tom Hill]

My testimony? I am talking about the science of plant breeding, the acumilated knowledge of this worlds genetisists. WTF is it that you think you are talking about?

"now chemovar is not reliant on environment but the expression of the metabolites your going to smoke and judge it by are

if you grow your progeny in an outdoor environment they will express differently than the same progeny grown in an indoor environment ( the variance will depend on the difference of the environments)"

>No dude, the variance will ultimately depend on the genetics, get this through your skull.

"It would be great if every breeder were tom hill but tom hill cant breed every strain of weed properly, in fact you have enough work with your own genes"

>Oh shut up. I am not asking you to devote your damn life to drug cannabis genetics, I am asking you to understand and put a few simple fucking concepts to work for you, for cannabis' sake.

"so I guess in the end regardless of what you say, as long as people buy seed cause they want a specific chemical phenotype and the breeding world works the way it works not only will people still be buying hack seeds but the cultivars (in an aggregate sense) will continue to improve regardless"

>wishfull thinking, you and others will be shunned, and rightfully so you careless fucking hacks.

"Prohibition forced people indoors working with low plant numbers, not ignorance or a lack of desire but than again you know this"

>We are not talking about numbers here, but method, and complete ignorance thereof.