Electrical system setup help

[yamaha_1fan]

yamaha_1fan - It used to be that many 240v controls and appliances had small motors, relays and such that required a 120v circuit with a neutral. This was particularly true if the appliance/control had an analog electric clock or timer with a small motor. A neutral was required along with the 2 hots so that internal wiring could grab 120 volts. I haven't wired any 240v fixture with purely digital controls, and I don't really know if digital electronics require a neutral.

...which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand; just an FYI.

PC

OK I just know my AC/lights/air compressor all run on 240 with no neutral. My A/C also has a digital control panel, not sure if that means the whole thing is digital

I know some 240 items do need a neutral, I just didnt know what type of items.

Thanks


Fumancu, I dont know about the waves. A/C is alternating current, and both sides may not be in sync with each other. So sharing a neutral on both circuits seems like a bad idea. I will admit this is beyond me and I am not an electrician. I know Pharma can has given plenty of sound advice in the past

The OP seems like he is not fully qualified. So why not just give him simple advice and make sure it gets done right? If he is running wire already, whats the difference if he runs 1 or 2 neutrals? If he uses romex, he'll have 2 wires anyway.

Its only a fire and an illegal grow we are talking about

 

[fumancu]

Deleated message. CF proved me wrong With a very good explanation.Thanks again CF

 

[Stay Puft]

I have been corrected by Cocktail-Frank. (see post below)
Post deleted so as not to add to the confusion.
Thanks Frank!
Regards,
Stay_Puft

 

[cocktail frank]

i really cant believe how uneducated people really are when it comes to electrical.
im gonna lay down a few ground rules for you guys:
i have reposted the same theories over and over again in this same forum.
usually i wont retype it, ill just tell you to search. but i cant believe the info going around here.
the reason for neutrals,
a neutral will carry a phasing imbalance back to the source of power.
this is its job, all it does.
you cannot have 120v without a neutral, ground cannot be used for a neutral.
no exceptions.
you can have 220/240v without a neutral. (2 hots and 1 ground)
if you need 220/110v or 240/120v, you need a neutral.
no SAFE way to make 120v w/o the neutral.
you can run 1 neutral for every hot wire, per phase.
most residential services are 240/120v aka 2 hots.
you can run 1 neutral for those 2 hots,
as long as the breakers for those 2 hots are on opposite phases of the service.
this is very important, needed to even out the balance of the loads.
if both breakers happen to land on the same phase during install, you will overload that neutral and cause a hazard.
if you had a 3 phase service, commercial/industrial apps
you can safely run 1 neutral for 3 hots.
why is that?
cuz there are 3 hot phases on a 3 phase service.

i will explain how a neutral carries an imbalance now, for the last time, ever.
say you run a 15amp 14/3 wire romex for a 240/120v setup.
you hook up w/e shit you have going on these and get it running.
say phase "a" reads 10 amps
then phase "b" reads 4 amps.
that would be a phase imbalance of 6 amps.
the neutral would now carry this 6 amp imbalance.
that is why neutrals are insulated.
cuz they can and will carry current.

as far as the comment on no such thing as a 15amp 240v breaker, it can be done.

to the OP,
your best bet would be to try and pull a neutral thru the heater pipe.
hopefully its a str8 shot back to the panel.
all depends on if the t-stat for the heater was built in to the heater, or wall mounted.
if its wall mounted, its one more box youll have to try and snake thru.
but if its all metallic pipe, shouldnt be difficult w/ the right tools.
then put a metal box on the connector for the heater pipe.
bond it correctly w/ a locknut.
then you can get a metal plate that holds a single 240v receptacle that you can plug your new box into.

 

[fumancu]

Great info frank That explains it all.I have one question I allways like to learn somthing new and you seam to know what your talking about. on the phase imbalance of 6 amps going to neurtal are you paying for that or is it recycled?
Allso what your saying is that power on the 2 120v lines has to flow evenly.Would this be for everything all the way from your main forward.One more thing if you run one 120v line to w/e what is it balanceing with.Just everyother breaker in the main balanceing .

 

[cocktail frank]

fumanchu,
you don't pay extra for the 6amp imbalance, its power being consumed already.
i dont want to get all technical with explanations,
for it is something that will probably never have to be worried about w/ grows.
i will say this,
keeping the draw on both phases similar makes for a more efficient setup.
unbalanced phases leads to lags and spikes in the voltage system.
electricity moves in a sine wave form, each phase being 120 degrees off set from the rest.
when a bigger load is on one phase compared to the rest, the sinewave is affected.

if you want to learn more, you can google definitions and theories on:
lag
spikes
harmonics
this has more to do with the explanations of how electricity works, as a whole, than compared to practical applications.

its kinda like swimming,
if you dont understand what you have to do to keep yourself afloat,
you're gonna drown

 

[fumancu]

Thanks for the info That is pretty much what i wanted.If I dont understand something I like to figger it out.Like you said Ill never use it.I pretty much understood what you said.so thanks again.

 

[PharmaCan]

CF you're right that a 15a 240v can be done but I don't see the point in it as you can do the same thing with a 120v line if that was the case... No?

As a rule, 240v is more efficient than 120v. In simple terms, with 240v all of the electricity is used and none of it is returned to ground.

PC

 

[Guest]

OP: I'll start by saying I am not a licensed electrician.

The first thing that comes to my mind is maybe the blue wires you are seeing aren't the same wires that are connected to the breaker. Is that heater the only load on the breakers? Is it possible the wires coming from the breaker box enter the heater at a different point, possibly where the built-in thermostat is? There may be a ground and a neutral wire in there, and the blue wires are just feeding the heating element off the thermostat.

I would carefully remove the breaker panel cover and see what color the wires are coming from the breakers that I have verified are feeding the heater. Look to see what other wires are heading out of the same knock-out in the breaker box, is there one or two wires connected to the ground/neutral bus along with the two hot wires?

If you aren't comfortable doing the work find someone that is licensed to do the work. A possible cover story (if the room is "clean") is to remove the heater and tell the electrician you want them to rough-in a new circuit (using the same breakers) that is "up to code" with a ground and neutral.

One more thing, don't smoke before/while doing any electrical work. Good luck, don't get zapped!