Electrical system setup help

[irconfused]

Well after having another pos hid hut ballast fry on me I am taking the opportunity to redo my whole grow room.

The circuit in the room is a 15amp 120v so I was thinking I would just have an electrician come in and run a new circuit, however I would prefer to not have a loose end like that (even though I am sb420 legal rippers are a very real threat) The room does however have an in wall electric heater that has its own 15amp 240 circuit.

What I would like to do is to take that 240 line and run it to one of these http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=HLLAILS4120S&eq=&Tp= then to the ballasts, flip flop box, and then the hoods. It will be 4 600s for each room on this so I should have lots of room to spare with the 15 amp 240.


My problem is that when I took the cover off that heater I discovered the only lines coming into it are 2 blue solid copper leads... I would assume that a ground would be necessary so is it possible that is mounted externally to the metal box, or not at all? If so could I run the ground from the 120v circuit that is already in the room or will I need a new line from the box? And hell while I am at it could someone please explain the actual purpose of the third line?

Thanks guys

 

[cocktail frank]

were the blue wires in a metal pipe?
the pipe was the ground if its run in pipe.

 

[fumancu]

The box you linked you could make your own for about $25.00 .$200.00 seams like a rip off.The flip flop you mentioned I belivee you run 2lights on for 12 hr then the other 2 for 12hr.I dont see any advantage in this. A 600w light uses 5 amps so you will need 2 15amp curcuits @ 120v.

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

thats a nice relay box, itll last a long time and you should sleep well knowing its heavy duity. thoes plugs looked 120, the thing said 240 imput... ill asume the box is spliting the 240 into 2 circuit 120.... looks good. you can DIY if your adept with making electrical things but thats up to you to risk.

 

[irconfused]

were the blue wires in a metal pipe?
the pipe was the ground if its run in pipe.

Well all I can see is from the inside of the box and it seems like just one of the normal round pre punched areas you knock out and feed wires through. I'm sorry if thats a bad description, just try and picture a standard metal electrical housing and the different locations you can punch out to run the wires. I guess some exploratory drywall surgery is in order.

I forgot to mention this thing is pretty old, I would say at least 30 years. So if this were the case could I just run a sheet metal screw with a wire into the metal box? Also if it helps I took a look at the stove (which is electric) and It has a corrugated metal pipe running from inside the wall into the back of it so it would be logical that you are correct.

The box you linked you could make your own for about $25.00 .$200.00 seams like a rip off.The flip flop you mentioned I belivee you run 2lights on for 12 hr then the other 2 for 12hr.I dont see any advantage in this. A 600w light uses 5 amps so you will need 2 15amp curcuits @ 120v.

Sorry I worded it wrong, I meant 4 lights on each side so 8 total, 4 on at any given time. As for the price I have the money to spend and I would rather grab something someone already thought out, my reasoning for this is in my next response.

thats a nice relay box, itll last a long time and you should sleep well knowing its heavy duity. thoes plugs looked 120, the thing said 240 imput... ill asume the box is spliting the 240 into 2 circuit 120.... looks good. you can DIY if your adept with making electrical things but thats up to you to risk.

My thoughts exactly, the only time I tried to do something relatively complicated on my own with wiring I ended up frying the headlight opening motors on my 69 dodge charger. Not only were they pricey as hell to replace but as my luck would have it I was up in the mountains at night when it happened.... That was a fun drive!

Thanks for all the good responses and keep them coming!

 

[fumancu]

Can you run wire through the attic so you dont have to mess with the drywall.Do you have a pic of main box.

 

[PharmaCan]

240 volts doesn't need a neutral, so what you have in that box are two hot 120v lines. You need a neutral for the 120v circuitry in your timers and controls. There is probably a ground wire connected to the heater box somewhere - assuming the rest of your house has grounds.

Sparky sez run a piece of romex from your panel to your heater box and use the two wires inside for the two neutrals for the two circuits you will have. Are there ways around doing that and using the existing wiring? Yeah, but you would need a qualified electrician to hook it up for you. It's not the kind of thing you can explain right here right now - there are just too many variables.

If you do go with the heater wiring, don't forget to remove the little clip or pin that that is holding the two breakers on the heater's 240v circuit together. You want those breakers to be able to trip independently.

Good luck!

PC

 

[fumancu]

He only needs one neutral and one ground.He can use same for both lines.He needs to look on the outlet box he is buying it will say what he needs.

 

[PharmaCan]

He only needs one neutral and one ground.He can use same for both lines.He needs to look on the outlet box he is buying it will say what he needs.

No, he should have a separate neutral for each circuit. One ground is fine, which is why I didn't mention adding another ground. However each circuit, particularly when those circuits are from different sides of the wave, should have its own neutral.

Now, what he could get away with is a different story. But, if you are going to tell someone how to do something "differently", then you should go into all aspects of the needed modifications, not just one. If he wants use just one neutral, he also needs to change his breakers so that both circuits are coming off the same bar. These are the kinds of things that are best left to a qualified electrician.

PC

 

[fumancu]

There is only one neutral bar in the main panel for all lines.doest matter how it gets there its all going to the same place.When you run a subpanel there is one neutral for whole panel which can be 240v.Allso he was going to use this
120V 4-Light Control w/Delay (240 input) link on top .I couldnt find any spec. but I bet it calls for one neutral line.This was done by experts.So I guess there doing it "differently", to

 

[irconfused]

Well I took a closer look at the box today, as it seems cocktail frank was right about it using a metal conduit, which I could only assume is for a neutral (the third prong)

I attached pics of the fuse box and the heater, you can't really see the metal conduit pipe but I was able to bend down the edge and get a good enough look at it.

Also there were areas of the box I could not see so I was thinking there was another set of wires coming in (possibly why the ones I can see are both the same color) So I put on a temporary female plug end to test it on an old fan and it did work for the 2 seconds I had it plugged in, so my logic would tell me that those are the positive and negative leads?

Would anyone have advice as to the cheapest way of figuring out how to tell which is positive and which is negative?


I am a bit confused as to the terminology regarding neutral/grounds Neutral would be the third prong that is sometimes there sometimes not? Also all the outlets in the house do have the third prong.


Okay so unless I am missing something all I will need to do is get a 240v female end and wire that up, connecting the neutral to the box itself, plug that into that little box I linked to earlier and I am good to go?

The circuit i'll be using is the upper row 2nd and 3rd from the far right.

 

[PharmaCan]

There is only one neutral bar in the main panel for all lines.doest matter how it gets there its all going to the same place.When you run a subpanel there is one neutral for whole panel which can be 240v.Allso he was going to use this
120V 4-Light Control w/Delay (240 input) link on top .I couldnt find any spec. but I bet it calls for one neutral line.This was done by experts.So I guess there doing it "differently", to

Well, I've only been pulling wire for about 35 years so probably you have more experience and know more about this than I do.

PC

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

i feel sorry for you IRconfused, that box looks like a nightmare.

 

[fumancu]

How many subpanels you pull two neutral wires to.Do you just pull or have you actually done any wiring.You never answered any of my replys.I answered all of yours.Like on the outlet box he is using why pull two wires when there is only one spot to hook one up.All he needs to do is if he can pull a green and a white wire through the conduit he can hook up his outlet box.Take face off main hook green to ground and white to neutral.Im not saying he can do it just that would be an easy and safe solution.What does your 35 years of experance think he should.One more thing PC you said us romeax for his two neutralsThat sounds like doing it differently", to me.Every thing I said is sound wiring practice.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

Also there were areas of the box I could not see so I was thinking there was another set of wires coming in (possibly why the ones I can see are both the same color) So I put on a temporary female plug end to test it on an old fan and it did work for the 2 seconds I had it plugged in, so my logic would tell me that those are the positive and negative leads?

Would anyone have advice as to the cheapest way of figuring out how to tell which is positive and which is negative?


I am a bit confused as to the terminology regarding neutral/grounds Neutral would be the third prong that is sometimes there sometimes not? Also all the outlets in the house do have the third prong.


Okay so unless I am missing something all I will need to do is get a 240v female end and wire that up, connecting the neutral to the box itself, plug that into that little box I linked to earlier and I am good to go?

The circuit i'll be using is the upper row 2nd and 3rd from the far right.

Maybe get a book on electric. For starters, there is no positive or negative in A/C. It is alternating current.

On a 120 circuit, you have a HOT, A NEUTRAL, and a GROUND. All 120 circuits should have a hot and neutral. They may not have a ground, which is the 3rd prong. A ground is not needed for the circuit to work. A ground is for safety reasons only and provides a more desirable place for electric to travel than your body.

a 220 circuit usually has 2 hots and a ground. A neutral is usually not required. Not in anything you will need in a growroom at least.

Fumancu, I think PC stated that using the same neutral for different sides of the bar (different phase, whatever) was a bad idea. Do you really need a scientific explanation.

If it were me I would run seperate neutrals.

 

[irconfused]

i feel sorry for you IRconfused, that box looks like a nightmare.

That Pic makes it look worse than it really is since its the only area where wires are.

How many subpanels you pull two neutral wires to.do you just pull or have you actually done any wiring.You never answered any of my replys.I answered all of yours.Like on the outlet box he is using why pull two wires when there is only one spot to hook one up.All he needs to do is if he can pull a green and a white wire through the conduit he can hook up his outlet box.Take face off main hook green to ground and white to neutral.Im not saying he can do it just that would be an easy and safe salution.What does your 35 years of experance think he should.

But ive only got blue wires...?


Also as I was looking around for the best price, one place read as follows, "This model is powered by a 240Vac circuit but delivers 120Vac to lighting ballasts (4 wires necessary from breaker assembly)."

As if I weren't confused enough already, why on earth would I need 4 wires?

 

[fumancu]

There is only one neutral your hooking them to the same spot.For both sides of the 240v.Whats the differance if you hook them at the end or at the other end and run one wire.Its the same connection.In the main all the whites are hooked to same bar.There is no spot on his outlets for a second white wire

 

[fumancu]

You need 4 wires(he said he needs 4 wires didnt I say that and was told I was wrong)
2 blues 120v each
1 white neutral need to run this
1green ground need to run this

how far is the heater from the main can you get two more wires through it

 

[fumancu]

Yes I do need an explanation.I explaned myself he said I was wrong.All I said was why.There are not Phases in120v or 240v there are waves. Never heard of being on wrong side of wave or Phase

 

[PharmaCan]

yamaha_1fan - It used to be that many 240v controls and appliances had small motors, relays and such that required a 120v circuit with a neutral. This was particularly true if the appliance/control had an analog electric clock or timer with a small motor. A neutral was required along with the 2 hots so that internal wiring could grab 120 volts. I haven't wired any 240v fixture with purely digital controls, and I don't really know if digital electronics require a neutral.

...which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand; just an FYI.

PC