electrical question

[gezzel]

having an electrician come and install a 240v 30amp box.
he asked what iw as using it for and i told him recording studio equipment.
he asked the see specs to see if a neutral is required.

i plan on runing 3, 1000ws off a CAP MLC4x controller.
does anyone know if the neutral is required, or if i need to tell him anything else to make sure it is wired correctly?

 

[Bud Green]

Tell him "Yes", you need a neutral installed...
Otherwise you cannot pull a 110V circuit off of it..

The difference in cost should be minimal.. for a straight 220V only circuit, he'll use 10/2/G Romex
For a 30 amp circuit that can be split 220V and/or 110V, he'll use 10/3/G Romex...

If Rives gets on here, his answer will supercede any info I can give you...

 

[Cartel530]

If you are using only 240v then no you dont need it. Have the 2 8's. Also remeber if its wired for 240v then do not plug 120v into it. They tend to make it seem you can run both ( you can but they must be wired for it)

 

[Cartel530]

LOL yes he's the man he has helped me numerous times as well with this exact question when i was wiring my boxes ^^

 

[rives]

Hey guys!

I think that your question was covered well in the above posts. For straight 240v, a neutral is not required, but I would have him tape off the neutral and leave it in the box so that you have the option of using it in the future if you get a controller that uses 120/240v.

If you haven't bought it yet, that CAP controller is junk and they are out of business.

 

[gezzel]

Hey guys!

I think that your question was covered well in the above posts. For straight 240v, a neutral is not required, but I would have him tape off the neutral and leave it in the box so that you have the option of using it in the future if you get a controller that uses 120/240v.

If you haven't bought it yet, that CAP controller is junk and they are out of business.

unfortunately i already bought the CAP controller...
is it complete trash? do you recommend a different one to use?
i dont really plan on expanding the room at all, likely will only be 3 lights in there max running off that one 30 amp 240v.
the extra cost for the neutral is only $40
$440 for 30amp 240 w/ neutral.

 

[rives]

I personally would not use one.

The two big problems are the lack of proper over current protection and the junk receptacles. They aren't UL or CSA approved, and if there is a fire associated with the grow, will almost certainly negate your fire insurance. The directions tell you to feed the controller with 30 amps, but there is no intermediate protection between the 30a feed and the much-lower rated downstream wiring and receptacles. They apparently made several iterations of the controller - if yours has the receptacles that look like two capital T's on their sides, they will accept both 120v and 240v plugs, of either 15a or 20a configuration. These do not comply with ANY applicable standards or codes. There is a very good reason that the bulk of the instruction sheet is dedicated to placing all of the liability on the end user instead of telling you how to actually use the unit.

If you are comfortable with wiring and making modifications to the unit, in-line fusing could be placed between the power relay and the receptacles so that they are properly protected. Changing the receptacles out with "specification" or "commercial" grade ones available from HD or Lowes would take care of that problem, but will require drilling out the rivet that holds the receptacle in place.

There are numerous other controllers that are better built, but I haven't seen any yet that are code-compliant or UL/CSA approved. Another contributor on here is trying to find out from the manufacturer if the Titan Helios 1 has intermediate fusing installed, but I haven't heard back from him.

 

[gezzel]

I personally would not use one.

The two big problems are the lack of proper over current protection and the junk receptacles. They aren't UL or CSA approved, and if there is a fire associated with the grow, will almost certainly negate your fire insurance. The directions tell you to feed the controller with 30 amps, but there is no intermediate protection between the 30a feed and the much-lower rated downstream wiring and receptacles. They apparently made several iterations of the controller - if yours has the receptacles that look like two capital T's on their sides, they will accept both 120v and 240v plugs, of either 15a or 20a configuration. These do not comply with ANY applicable standards or codes. There is a very good reason that the bulk of the instruction sheet is dedicated to placing all of the liability on the end user instead of telling you how to actually use the unit.

If you are comfortable with wiring and making modifications to the unit, in-line fusing could be placed between the power relay and the receptacles so that they are properly protected. Changing the receptacles out with "specification" or "commercial" grade ones available from HD or Lowes would take care of that problem, but will require drilling out the rivet that holds the receptacle in place.

There are numerous other controllers that are better built, but I haven't seen any yet that are code-compliant or UL/CSA approved. Another contributor on here is trying to find out from the manufacturer if the Titan Helios 1 has intermediate fusing installed, but I haven't heard back from him.

haha now you've scared me into using them.
i'm not that comofortable with wiring...
the only other popular lighting controller i've seen is the titan helios ones that you mentioned.

also came across this browsing some forums
http://www.dxhydro.com/
not sure how legit this guy is either.

 

[the gnome]

haha now you've scared me into using them.
i'm not that comofortable with wiring...
the only other popular lighting controller i've seen is the titan helios ones that you mentioned.

also came across this browsing some forums
http://www.dxhydro.com/
not sure how legit this guy is either.

do a search on those CAP controllers in this forum,
several mentions of them doing a melt down for no apparent reason other than being plugged in.
I'd also run the search on the website you have linked and see
what other peeps experiences here have been

 

[rives]

The problem is that all of those guys are competing for the same market, so they all provide basically the same product. CAP is the bottom of the barrel with their proprietary junk receptacles, but I haven't found any that have the proper overcurrent protection, including DXHydro - his take on it was that it didn't matter if the controller would negate your fire insurance because the insurance wouldn't cover the grow anyhow. My personal take on it is that I want every bit of protection that the NEC calls for and would prefer not to give the insurance company an "get out of jail free" card.

*Note - I just looked at some enlarged pictures of the Titan gear, and they appear to be using the same fucked up receptacles as CAP.

If you are going to run (3) 1k lights on 240v, they will pull roughly 4.5a each. The total for the three would be 13.5 amps, and on a 20a circuit you are rated to pull 80% (16 amps) for continuous loads. This means that you can easily handle your 3 lights on a 20a circuit and get the protection down where it should be.

If I was not comfortable working on electrical gear, I would have the electrician install your 30a wiring, but protect it with a double-pole (240v) 20 amp breaker and change out the receptacles in the controller to Nema 6-15 or 6-20 commercial versions. The feed wiring could handle a larger load if you decide to upscale later, and changing the breaker out from a 20a to a 30a will cost you about $8. This way you will have all of the protection that should be in place, and it will easily handle your 3 lights.

 

[gezzel]

If I was not comfortable working on electrical gear, I would have the electrician install your 30a wiring, but protect it with a double-pole (240v) 20 amp breaker and change out the receptacles in the controller to Nema 6-15 or 6-20 commercial versions. The feed wiring could handle a larger load if you decide to upscale later, and changing the breaker out from a 20a to a 30a will cost you about $8. This way you will have all of the protection that should be in place, and it will easily handle your 3 lights.

i'm not sure what protecting with a double pole would mean, or how i could tell the electrician without having him more suspicious. i'm sure he knows what i'm doing it for, but id rather stay as inconspicuous as possible.

doesn't seem like switching out the receptacles would be that hard, would i find them at homedepot?

it seems the faulty part of these controllers is the relays, where is the best place to buy heavy duty ones to replace them?

 

[mojave green]

The problem is that all of those guys are competing for the same market, so they all provide basically the same product. CAP is the bottom of the barrel with their proprietary junk receptacles, but I haven't found any that have the proper overcurrent protection, including DXHydro - his take on it was that it didn't matter if the controller would negate your fire insurance because the insurance wouldn't cover the grow anyhow. My personal take on it is that I want every bit of protection that the NEC calls for and would prefer not to give the insurance company an "get out of jail free" card.

*Note - I just looked at some enlarged pictures of the Titan gear, and they appear to be using the same fucked up receptacles as CAP.

If you are going to run (3) 1k lights on 240v, they will pull roughly 4.5a each. The total for the three would be 13.5 amps, and on a 20a circuit you are rated to pull 80% (16 amps) for continuous loads. This means that you can easily handle your 3 lights on a 20a circuit and get the protection down where it should be.

If I was not comfortable working on electrical gear, I would have the electrician install your 30a wiring, but protect it with a double-pole (240v) 20 amp breaker and change out the receptacles in the controller to Nema 6-15 or 6-20 commercial versions. The feed wiring could handle a larger load if you decide to upscale later, and changing the breaker out from a 20a to a 30a will cost you about $8. This way you will have all of the protection that should be in place, and it will easily handle your 3 lights.

everything rives said...but i would upgrade to an arc fault breaker.

 

[rives]

A single-pole breaker is used for 120v, a double-pole for 240v. With 120v, if you measure from the wires to ground with a meter, one wire will read 120v and the other will read 0, and measuring from one wire to the other will read 120v. The breaker is on the one that reads 120v to ground.

With 240v, reading from either wire to ground will read 120v, and reading from one wire to the other will yield 240v. Since both wires are "hot", they both need to be protected with a circuit breaker. Circuit breakers for 120v only provide protection for one wire and are called "single-pole", whereas breakers for 240v are actually two independent breakers tied together at the handle so that if one trips, the other is tripped with it. Since there are two breakers side-by-side, they are called "double-pole".

The electrician is going to install a double-pole breaker on your 240v circuit when he installs it. All that I'm suggesting above is to have him install a 20 amp breaker rather than a 30a so that the protection level is where it should be for the components in your controller. If he runs the appropriate wire for 30a, it will work fine on a 20a breaker and can be upsized later if your plans change. As I said, the breaker is only about $8, so it's not like a major investment.

Are your eyes crossed yet?

Yes, HD, Lowes, or any electrical supply house would have the receptacles. The only problem is that from what I've seen in the pictures, the original receptacles are riveted into place and would need to have the rivets drilled out in order to change them.

I haven't read about failures on the power relays, they are usually more robust than any of the other components, but there are many sources for them. Grainger carries excellent 40a power relays, as does AutomationDirect.com (much cheaper!). If you are concerned about the relay failing, the Titan controllers use an industrial-quality relay from Siemens.

 

[rives]

everything rives said...but i would upgrade to an arc fault breaker.

Arc-fault breakers are excellent, but I haven't seen any double-pole ones yet. Also, there had been some reports of them having problems with HID lights on start-up. I haven't used one yet, so I don't know if that is really an issue or not.

Do you have experience with them in a HID application?

 

[mojave green]

Arc-fault breakers are excellent, but I haven't seen any double-pole ones yet. Also, there had been some reports of them having problems with HID lights on start-up. I haven't used one yet, so I don't know if that is really an issue or not.

Do you have experience with them in a HID application?

yes sir and no issues with hid! my box for grow room. they a bit pricey but i wouldn't grow without them.

 

[rives]

yes sir and no issues with hid! my box for grow room. they a bit pricey but i wouldn't grow without them.
View Image

Good deal! I had looked for the double-pole version a year or so ago, and couldn't find anything. I picked up two of the single-pole units to try them out in tandem but haven't gotten around to playing with them yet.

Glad to hear that there have been no HID-related issues, too.

Thanks!

 

[the gnome]

Q about arc fault breakers,
is this correct--->
#1 arc breakers sense arc'g between other wires
#2 or even something like a single wire in a wire nut thats loose and is arcing with its self
#3 if a hot wire is grounded


another Q is.... will the arc breaker trip if there's a spark from something like a power relay when the contact's are activated

 

[rives]

Yes, arc-fault breakers are supposed to be capable of sensing any type of arcing - loose wire nuts, a lamp that isn't fully tightened, failed insulation on a wire arcing to ground, etc. They apparently have some level of "tuning" to avoid false tripping when a switch makes or breaks, but the idea is to pick up faults that standard breakers cannot sense. It is very common to have a low-level fault that can start a fire, but won't draw sufficient amperage to trip a conventional breaker. The newer ones are also called "combination" breakers because they include the functions of a GFCI.

 

[gezzel]

A single-pole breaker is used for 120v, a double-pole for 240v. With 120v, if you measure from the wires to ground with a meter, one wire will read 120v and the other will read 0, and measuring from one wire to the other will read 120v. The breaker is on the one that reads 120v to ground.

With 240v, reading from either wire to ground will read 120v, and reading from one wire to the other will yield 240v. Since both wires are "hot", they both need to be protected with a circuit breaker. Circuit breakers for 120v only provide protection for one wire and are called "single-pole", whereas breakers for 240v are actually two independent breakers tied together at the handle so that if one trips, the other is tripped with it. Since there are two breakers side-by-side, they are called "double-pole".

The electrician is going to install a double-pole breaker on your 240v circuit when he installs it. All that I'm suggesting above is to have him install a 20 amp breaker rather than a 30a so that the protection level is where it should be for the components in your controller. If he runs the appropriate wire for 30a, it will work fine on a 20a breaker and can be upsized later if your plans change. As I said, the breaker is only about $8, so it's not like a major investment.

Are your eyes crossed yet?

Yes, HD, Lowes, or any electrical supply house would have the receptacles. The only problem is that from what I've seen in the pictures, the original receptacles are riveted into place and would need to have the rivets drilled out in order to change them.

I haven't read about failures on the power relays, they are usually more robust than any of the other components, but there are many sources for them. Grainger carries excellent 40a power relays, as does AutomationDirect.com (much cheaper!). If you are concerned about the relay failing, the Titan controllers use an industrial-quality relay from Siemens.

ok i gotcha.
electrician coming tomorrow so hopefully all goes well

i decided to junk/return the CAP MLC, and am going with one of the titan helios controllers..
I'm between the 5 and the 11...
http://www.titancontrols.net/products/lighting.aspx
i couldn't seem to find where they are different except for the material of the outter box.
worth the $40-50 difference in price? or should i just grab the 11 and save a little money?

thanks again for all the help rives, keeping my house from burning down

 

[rives]

The differences that I see are that the 4 has an over-ride switch on the face of it for turning the lamps off, a 120v receptacle for fans/light movers, and the enclosure is metal rather than plastic. My preference for enclosures is metal simply because they can be grounded and any wiring fault will trip the breaker. While plastic is a good choice in exceptionally humid or salty environments, grounding the enclosure isn't possible since they are non-conductive.

I think that either one will be fine.