BrainOGrefuGee
Member
Wait! dot leave. your opinion is the most important to me out of everyone, your the electrician...help
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Electrical question regarding 240v---grounding?
- Thread starter BrainOGrefuGee
- Start date
LOL - They may have called that a sub-panel when it was made, but today it is referred to as a disconnect.
I can't tell from the photo - is that little neutral bus insulated from the metal box?
Personally, if I were you, I'd remove that disconnect/sub-panel and put a small, modern sub-panel in its place. Then you can divide things up and get both 120v and 240v. Inside the new sub-panel your neutrals and grounds will be separate buses. The neutral bus will be isolated in (insulated from) the new sub-panel box; the ground bus will be bonded to the sub-panel box.
You are correct that the bx shield is currently your ground conductor. While running a new ground to the nearby water pipe sounds like a good idea, I'll defer to Madpenguin on that question because I'm not really sure of all the ramifications of such an unorthodox move.
New sub-panels are not very expensive. You'd really be better off getting rid of what you have and starting over with a new sub. You'll be much happier with the end product and it won't be all mickey-mouse.
PC
Edit - Damn I'm typing slow today. Eight posts came up after I started typing. MP answered your question about the ground. A new sub-panel to replace the existing one still seems like the best idea.
I can't tell from the photo - is that little neutral bus insulated from the metal box?
Personally, if I were you, I'd remove that disconnect/sub-panel and put a small, modern sub-panel in its place. Then you can divide things up and get both 120v and 240v. Inside the new sub-panel your neutrals and grounds will be separate buses. The neutral bus will be isolated in (insulated from) the new sub-panel box; the ground bus will be bonded to the sub-panel box.
You are correct that the bx shield is currently your ground conductor. While running a new ground to the nearby water pipe sounds like a good idea, I'll defer to Madpenguin on that question because I'm not really sure of all the ramifications of such an unorthodox move.
New sub-panels are not very expensive. You'd really be better off getting rid of what you have and starting over with a new sub. You'll be much happier with the end product and it won't be all mickey-mouse.
PC
Edit - Damn I'm typing slow today. Eight posts came up after I started typing. MP answered your question about the ground. A new sub-panel to replace the existing one still seems like the best idea.
Penguin - Here in California, water meters are at the street, so you've got 20+ feet of pipe in the ground before you ever get to the meter. It is not uncommon to have to replace the pipe from the meter to the house and the house is disconnected from that pipe during the repairs.
And then there's the meth heads who cut the main water line going into the house just because it's there.
Here in California, Edison Co. uses Aluminum for all their drops. All the really, really old ones I've seen were solid copper - tiny wire like #8 or close to that - been a while since I've seen one.
PC
And then there's the meth heads who cut the main water line going into the house just because it's there.
Here in California, Edison Co. uses Aluminum for all their drops. All the really, really old ones I've seen were solid copper - tiny wire like #8 or close to that - been a while since I've seen one.
PC
On most of the electrical plans that I have seen, a ground is indicated by a couple lines and a ground symbol. That is all fine and good for an engineer, because, in the field, your electrician knows what to do with that ground.
While a safety ground to a nearby water pipe is theoretically a good ground, it probably does not meet code specs. If wiring is not up to code, and a fire happens, your insurance company can tell you to fuck off. Other than the fact that codes are written for a reason, insurance is one of the best reasons for following them.
Most building authorities will defer to a licensed engineer's design specifications. But most sfr residential isn't engineered, it's just done to code.
PC
..I don't think there is anything wrong with fastening a short safety ground to a water pipe, but back to the basics... "All power needs to return to it's source"
Might as well do it the right/proper way if you're going through all the trouble in the first place, I'm a dc guy, I could do a lot of things the 'shortcut way' but it makes me proud to know I did it proper had I an inspector/auditor standing over my shoulder.
Might as well do it the right/proper way if you're going through all the trouble in the first place, I'm a dc guy, I could do a lot of things the 'shortcut way' but it makes me proud to know I did it proper had I an inspector/auditor standing over my shoulder.
randude I agree with you it is completely safe, until the point where someone, assuming that it's wired to code, goes meddling around and then we have problems.
lol I don't think we're trying to bust your balls and I do agree that it would/could be the shortest path of resistance, but we are talking current and when it comes to an amateur (no offense to anyone including myself) it's best to do things the 'right' way.
In your shoes as an electrical engineer you know that what you are saying would in fact be more than adequate to do the job and possibly 'in theory' be a shorter path to ground, but the average joe not knowing how things are, and the typical do it yourselfer, should be instructed how any apprentice or man in training would be taught to do... just my opinion not to be taken to offense.
lol I don't think we're trying to bust your balls and I do agree that it would/could be the shortest path of resistance, but we are talking current and when it comes to an amateur (no offense to anyone including myself) it's best to do things the 'right' way.
In your shoes as an electrical engineer you know that what you are saying would in fact be more than adequate to do the job and possibly 'in theory' be a shorter path to ground, but the average joe not knowing how things are, and the typical do it yourselfer, should be instructed how any apprentice or man in training would be taught to do... just my opinion not to be taken to offense.
I may not be the smartest guy in the world, but I am smart enough not to argue with someone that knows more than me. So, I'm not disagreeing with what you say. My only point is that, in the event of a fire, even though the ground may have nothing to do with the cause of the fire, that won't necessarily stop an insurance company from trying to weasel out of paying a claim if said ground doesn't conform to the local building code.
PC
madpenguin
Member
Yes, randude, there is actually nothing wrong with using green THHN to jumper from a receptacle to a metal water pipe. Granted that all plumbing in the house is metal. Even if you happen to not have your incoming water main bonded to the neutral buss at the main panel, yes...... It will still provide a ground.
Not disagreeing with the theory. But in practice, you need to offer the least resistive path for ground fault current to travel on and preferably force it back to the panel FIRST. A dedicated grounding wire in romex will accomplish this MUCH better than a water pipe will. Then at the panel or main disco, you should have a #4 bare bonded to the line side of the water meter and another #6 heading to a ground rod. (PC, I'm east coast and all water meters are inside the house. I've heard of meters being out on the street and have no experience with them. One might assume that you would still want to jumper the actual meter itself at the street, dunno tho....)
There is generally a right and wrong way to do things and grounding at random to the house plumbing with short pieces of THHN isn't the "right" way. Yes, it will give you a ground but as soon as someone rips out a section of plumbing to replace it with PVC (happened at my place), your left redoing all your grounds to a crap load of receptacles and swearing all the while.
Why not just take it back to the panel and be done with it? Plus..... The OP ALREADY has a dedicated ground wire in his new romex. What is the point in grounding to a water pipe at this point?
I'm with PC. Rip that old piece of crap out and replace it with a new sub panel. As PC suggests, I can't see whether or not those neutral terminals are isolated from the frame of the panel. It should be. If it is, then you could buy a 5 hole ground bar and fasten it directly to the back side of the enclosure and terminate your ground there. Then run a green #10 THHN from the new ground bar through that conduit nipple and up into your main panel. Or rather further still into the main breaker box..... Where ever your grounds and neutrals meet is where that ground wire should end up. NOT on some piece of copper pipe coming from your kitchen sink. Just freakin' sloppy doing that. Sorry..... ;-)
Not disagreeing with the theory. But in practice, you need to offer the least resistive path for ground fault current to travel on and preferably force it back to the panel FIRST. A dedicated grounding wire in romex will accomplish this MUCH better than a water pipe will. Then at the panel or main disco, you should have a #4 bare bonded to the line side of the water meter and another #6 heading to a ground rod. (PC, I'm east coast and all water meters are inside the house. I've heard of meters being out on the street and have no experience with them. One might assume that you would still want to jumper the actual meter itself at the street, dunno tho....)
There is generally a right and wrong way to do things and grounding at random to the house plumbing with short pieces of THHN isn't the "right" way. Yes, it will give you a ground but as soon as someone rips out a section of plumbing to replace it with PVC (happened at my place), your left redoing all your grounds to a crap load of receptacles and swearing all the while.
Why not just take it back to the panel and be done with it? Plus..... The OP ALREADY has a dedicated ground wire in his new romex. What is the point in grounding to a water pipe at this point?
I'm with PC. Rip that old piece of crap out and replace it with a new sub panel. As PC suggests, I can't see whether or not those neutral terminals are isolated from the frame of the panel. It should be. If it is, then you could buy a 5 hole ground bar and fasten it directly to the back side of the enclosure and terminate your ground there. Then run a green #10 THHN from the new ground bar through that conduit nipple and up into your main panel. Or rather further still into the main breaker box..... Where ever your grounds and neutrals meet is where that ground wire should end up. NOT on some piece of copper pipe coming from your kitchen sink. Just freakin' sloppy doing that. Sorry..... ;-)
madpenguin
Member
Hey.... I do shortcuts too (in my own house). I still have alot of Knob and Tube wiring in my house with a spaghetti network of green THHN buchanan clamped together and then one run clamped to my water main. I also have a #4 bare headed back to my main panel tho....
As long as you understand how it works, then sure.... Do what ever you want. I'm just trying to give up-to-code advice as well as straight forward advice.
And, yes, brian, you need to either swap out those 25A fuses with 20A or use 30A rated receptacles. The choice is yours.
As long as you understand how it works, then sure.... Do what ever you want. I'm just trying to give up-to-code advice as well as straight forward advice.
And, yes, brian, you need to either swap out those 25A fuses with 20A or use 30A rated receptacles. The choice is yours.
Will wonders never cease - an electrical thread where people politely disagreed and actually came to a consensus.
MP - Out here, we bond the meter pipes with dirt instead of wire. LOL (The bottom of the meter is buried.) Meters aren't removed unless someone has cut the lock off a meter that has been locked off for non-payment. I've replaced a few mains from the meter to the house and I don't recall ever seeing a bonding wire before.
PC
MP - Out here, we bond the meter pipes with dirt instead of wire. LOL (The bottom of the meter is buried.) Meters aren't removed unless someone has cut the lock off a meter that has been locked off for non-payment. I've replaced a few mains from the meter to the house and I don't recall ever seeing a bonding wire before.
PC
madpenguin
Member
That makes sense. Water meters around here will freeze unless inside.
They are trying to move them outside, recessed in the ground (and locked down) to get them away from homeowners. One too many people taking them apart and drilling holes in the paddles to slow down the recorded usage.....
Uh oh.... I probably just gave atleast 20 people a weekend project/idea now for large hydro grows...... Just a little tip, start with a small drill bit and drill more every 3 months until you get your bill where you want it to be.... :wink:
I think I just got some bad Karma for that one...
They are trying to move them outside, recessed in the ground (and locked down) to get them away from homeowners. One too many people taking them apart and drilling holes in the paddles to slow down the recorded usage.....
Uh oh.... I probably just gave atleast 20 people a weekend project/idea now for large hydro grows...... Just a little tip, start with a small drill bit and drill more every 3 months until you get your bill where you want it to be.... :wink:
I think I just got some bad Karma for that one...
madpenguin
Member
This is all in the spirit of good natured debate and nothing more, but I'll strongly disagree. The least resistive path to ground is the best, and the only, way to go..... :wink:
