Electrical- Need help wiring my shed

[GreenManDan]

Okay, so I have a shed that I want to run power to but I am not 100% sure that what I am doing is correct. Inside the houses electrical box there are breakers with the hot wire attached to them on one side and on the other is strip of metal where the ground and white or neutral wires attach. The ground or neutral, not sure what to call it is then wired to a grounding stake. What I want to do is to run a 240v 60 amp breaker to my shed, at the shed there is a new electrical box. Inside the new box is a built in 100 amp breaker then slots for what ever it is that I want. Also am going to install a grounding stake at the shed box.

 

[willbeHigh]

Hey greenmanDan Theres a couple things You need to know first. 1. is what is the amps of the main service,100amp,150amp,200amp service.2. how far from the main service is the shed.3.at the main service add up all the amps of the breakers in the box.I just looked at your drawing and you have the main marked as 100amps.You will have to upgrade your main service first.Your main service is maxed out.You will have to call an electrician to upgrade your service.But after that you can install a 70 amp breaker and run the wire to the shed.The distance beweet the house and the shed is 100 ft or under you can use 10 gauge wire to carrie the amps you need at the shed.The longer the distance the larger the wire.When you upgrade ask the electrician what size wire to use for this sub pannel. I hope this helps you out. PEACE

 

[GreenManDan]

Guess I was a little unclear as to what my question is. it is about the ground and if I can get away with running the two hot lines with no ground or neutral to the box in the shed? The shed box will be grounded via grounding rod. The 60 amp breakers supply the shed with power. The house is setup with natural gas and the only large appliance is the refrigerator, other than that it is super basic so there is now worry about limited power.


p.s. got me some digital ballasts from lumatek and then read this:

DO NOT USE A NEUTRAL- 240V ballast wiring - VERY IMPORTANT! It has come to our attention that customers are using a NEUTRAL wire in their 240V electrical system. All digital ballasts will malfunction if the 240V circuit has a NEUTRAL. The input for the ballast is 2 HOT WIRES and I GROUND WIRE. Some electricians insist on wiring a neutral with their 240V installations. This should not be done when using electronic ballasts. If you are using a light controller ONLY bring a ground wire and two hot leads from your electrical panel. Please call our technical support department at 1-866-369-8943 with any questions regarding this.

 

[Guest]

Any "electrician" that insists on using a neutral on a 240V HID load isn't an electrician at all,it simply wont work.I bet they are talking about using the neutral(white wire) as a hot wire in 240V installations,thats perfectly fine.Thats some weird shit that they would write up something like that lol.You must run a ground wire to the subpanel from the main service and drive a ground rod,a neutral is only needed if 120V loads will be wired from the subpanel.If you run a neutral to the subpanel,there must be no continuity between neutral and ground at the subpanel.The neutral bus will be up on "insulators" having no contact with the metal can,the grounding bus is bolted directly to the can.The advice above is great except I wouldnt use #10AWG wiring a 60A subpanel,its only rated for 30A.Depending on length of run and prospective load,#6 AWG should probably be used

 

[imnotcrazy]

My boy soilman has it boys. 10AWG is only good for 30A try running 70A through it and it'll either trip the breaker from the heat produced or melt the insulation right off causing one of two possible scenarios; 1: Insulation melts causing dead short, either phase to phase or phase to ground causing breaker to trip; 2: Insulation melts and causes fire if breaker doesn't trip out

 

[Guest]

In the interest of International relations and so as not to cause an International Electrical incident,confirm current location lol.If you are in the states all advice given is safe and accurate,If you are in the great Country of Canada then DB is the man to see!

 

[GreenManDan]

Okay, so I am still a little unclear. Please pay attention to what my specs are not other peoples suggestions. At the house panel will be a 240v 60 amp breaker with 2 hot wires (Stranded #8 rated at 40 amps so it totals to 80.) Those 2 hot wires will then go underground in pvc pipes to the shed to the new panel. Please note, I don’t think this falls into the same category as a sub panel because it is in separate structure and is not grounded. The 2 #8 wires will go into the main of the new panel. A new grounding stake will be installed at the shed to provide a ground/neutral. So, how is my setup any different than running a ground and neutral wire with the 2 hot wires. The ground and neutral in the panel at the house are same (check out the picture) so why can’t I or can I do what I have drawen?

Thanks for all or your input so far, I will try and be more clear to help you help me.

Peace

 

[imnotcrazy]

You MUST run wire rated @ 60A, having 2 wires DOES NOT DOUBLE YOUR LOAD CARRYING CAPABILITIES. Each wire on a 60A breaker is going to be able to carry 60A...

 

[cocktail frank]

exactly how many lights and what wattage are you running in the shed?
this would help tremendously.
you have to pull a ground from the main panel to the subpanel in the shed as well.
no need for ground rods at the shed.

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure about your "specs" bro,they are cause for alarm.First of all,using #8AWG for a 60A subpanel fed from a 2 pole 60A breaker even if only 5 ft away is against code,the only non-code advice you'll ever hear from me is it's OK to use 120V receptacles on a 240V circuit when wired correctly,thats as far as I'll go..If you want a 60A subpanel no matter the location you must use #6AWG sized wire,#8 isnt going to cut it.I don't know what else I can tell you that I didnt before,yes it is a subpanel and yes you must bring a grounding conductor to the subpanel from the main service and yes you must drive a grounding electrode or bond to a cold water pipe in the structure.If you carry a neutral wire for 120V loads,THAT conductor can be #8AWG,not the line conductors they must be 6.You neutral wire will always carry the unbalanced load in the panel,so if all your loads are on one hot leg you can overload the neutral,keep panel as balanced between legs as possible.Any specific questions I can help you with let me know.

 

[GreenManDan]

Got it, will make sure to use #6 AWG. But I still want to know why I need to have a ground or neutral that comes off of the house’s box. The power comes from the pole to the hose from only two wires. So why is it wrong to again bring two hot wires from the house box to my shed box that has its own grounding stake?

 

[imnotcrazy]

Because that's NEC rules bro. If you ever want to sell the property, the home inspector will soot the sale down if things aren't up to snuff, then you'll have to fix it. Better to do it right the first time around.

 

[Guest]

Your main service has a driven ground rod also,it better!Its NEC that subpanels have two grounding systems in case of failure in one,one shall be a stranded or solid grounding conductor from the main service to the subpanel.The other shall be either a driven ground rod or other suitable means including grounding to the cold water system.You dont have a choice on the grounding conductor from the main panel to the subpanel,unless you break NEC.Now I got my journeyman back in 1999 with a 1996 code book lol,so if anythings changed now's the time to speckinzy up.

 

[GreenManDan]

So if I run 3 6AWG wires, 2 being hot and the third being neutral/ground to my shed's box I will be all good. Right? Then to make it even safer I can add a grounding stake. Right? If yes, then I think we got me all straitened out.

 

[Guest]

There is no neutral/ground,only a neutral and a ground and they serve different purposes.The neutral wire is a current carrying conductor while the grounding wire is considered to be non-current carrying,only in fault situations will the ground become "live".Its simple really,if you want to bring 120V circuits off of your subpanel,you must run a neutral wire.If your subpanel will only power 240V loads,a neutral wire isnt necessary from the main panel.Whether you choose to use a neutral or not from the main panel to the subpanel,a grounding conductor is not an option.You must run a ground from the main panel to the subpanel and supplement the system with another means of grounding,either by ground rod or cold water pipe

 

[cocktail frank]

i got you soilman!! haha
he can't run #8 for a NEUTRAL.
if you have a linear load, the neutral must be the same size as the phase wires.
anything that has electronics in it is classified as a linear load.
but then again, jokes on me, cuz his ballasts are 240v.
i guess im the dick now?
i still feel he doesnt need to put a ground rod in at the sub.
if he pulls a grounding conductor thru his subfeeder pipe, all devices will ground back to the main.

 

[Guest]

New and more recent code experience is needed here,I know it will work bringing a grounding conductor from the main panel and forgetting it,but it is code?Didn't use to be I can tell you that.You needed that second means of grounding.All you do normally is take some 8 stranded to a pipeclamp on the cold water side.I woudlnt drive no frickin ground rod for a subpanel,and if I wired it I might disregard a second means of grounding,but I dont want to say the wrong thing here..What is needed to work?2 hots and a ground from the main panel to the subpanel for 240V applications,add a netral wire if you will be feeding 120V loads.How and if the system is grounded is really up to you since were kinda not doing something lega;l anywayy??WTF am I quoting code for.........

 

[GreenManDan]

My only confusion is inside the house’s box. The neutral wires and ground wires are attached to the Same strip of metal. Now why is that? It is the same setup in the new box at the shed, ground and neutral are attached to the same strip of metal.

 

[cocktail frank]

anything after the main disconnect means has to have seperate ground and neutral.
your sub in the shed is technically a main breaker panel.
you dont need a main breaker in a sub, because it is already protected in your main panel.
but that doesn't mean you cant use it.

 

[Guest]

Dern you bro,read my first post carefully,I made it crystal clear.Your ground and neutral are supposed to be bonded at the service,just like it is.In the subpanel there will be seperate busbars for neutral and ground.Neutral will be up on insulators isolated from the metal can,the ground bar will be bolted directly to the metal can,There,you went and made me write all that again lol!