Dutch pilot experiment: LEGALLY growing organic female hemp flowers high in CBD

[oldchuck]

Finola at 51 days from seed:



My god, she is setting seed at 51 days! Speedy bitches.

I have eight females and one puny whipped out male. The girls range from two to over four feet in very small pots. I am concerned about weak stalks holding heavy seed but okay for now. Probably just the indoor environment. Stalks this weak might be a lodging problem in a field crop. She is an elegant looking weed, willowy and thin with thin leaves. Branching is pretty good for hemp and seed production looks to be abundant.

 

[Only Ornamental]

I am concerned about weak stalks holding heavy seed but okay for now. Probably just the indoor environment. Stalks this weak might be a lodging problem in a field crop.

My Finolas outside in the greenhouse have rather thick stems, maybe twice that of the indoor siblings. I think that has something to do with temperature, speed of growth and wind/movement.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I know Finola well.
Finola is much lower in CBD then other CBD varieties available on the internet, you might have to look harder for a CBD only variety but I have friends in Calif that have clones of them almost 20% CBD with little to no THC. Clones with 10% CBD and with THC from 5-25% are easy to find.
-SamS

 

[oldchuck]

Clones with 10% CBD and with THC from 5-25% are easy to find.
-SamS

Not in Vermont.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Not in Vermont.

Every heard of a car?
If it is important for you, you can get a CBD clone.
In California they will deliver clones to you.
-SamS

 

[oldchuck]

Oh? I don't know anybody in California and a road trip is not possible. I was also under the impression that it was illegal to take plants out of the state. CBD seeds? As far as I can tell that's a crap shoot and the only way you know if you win is a lab test which is also not possible. Finola, or some other hemp variety seems like a viable alternative even at low concentrations.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

You can buy them from dispensaries. But no problem it was just a suggestion. Finola does have some CBD and even way less THC. But you can get seeds online that have way more CBD.
-SamS

 

[oldchuck]

Correct me if I am wrong, Sam, but I am under the impression that the high CBD strain seeds I see advertised only offer a 1 in 4 chance that a given plant will actually produce the high CBD ratio. I continue to be tempted by them though. Maybe someday.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Yes that is true with many if not all. When grown they also need to be tested for THC/CBD in that case.
Is there a lab in Vermont that does testing for Cannabinoids? They might be able to help find a CBD clone in Vermont?
Good Luck,
-SamS

 

[G.O. Joe]

The secondary goal is to develop a way to harvest the leaves of the male and female hemp plant.

Anything with more value as generic organic matter should be mulched. Green farming practice should come first.

Even though making an extract of the flowers would be preferred for some applications (e.g. topical treatment of skin diseases), this will not be done by us because THC concentration of such products will more than likely be above the 0,2 % legal limit.

Test and see how far you can use sifting right up to the limit.

the high CBD strain seeds I see advertised only offer a 1 in 4 chance that a given plant will actually produce the high CBD ratio.

That would apply to old hash plants (even Sensi's IME) and other mixed THC/CBD genetics. Once the 25% plants are bred together, the THC should only be trace, forever. It's not certain that high CBD percentages are necessary for anything other than saying you have the highest CBD plant available. We in the flatlands somehow got by with single-digit THC for a long time and were fine with it. It was plenty effective and I'd smoke it again. My 80's outdoor (brickweed x ditchweed) x ditchweed was great and all my friends loved it, since we hicks weren't revolving around California. This grow's indoor generic ditchweed really tightened up mid-flower after being extremely leggy, and it has plenty of trichomes, just not the desirable glandular trichomes than can perhaps replace the others with breeding. I'm as optimistic on breeding in drug strain character as ever. Last grows very indica x mostly sativa gave uniform, stout, fast, indica F1's - the indica genes weren't knocked out. It remains to be seen if this is preferable to going somewhere where you don't know anyone or anything, trying to obtain the right clones, and transporting across several state lines.

 

[oldchuck]

A lab in Vermont? Maybe someday. I might be able to ship samples off to a lab in another NE state. I haven't inquired. I did prepay for one of those MyDx gadgets. Hopefully it will work and hopefully I can do my own testing. Next year.

Amusing. I attended an oilseed conference here a few weeks ago and the guy in charge of the Vermont hemp registry in the Agriculture department gave a talk about the law and his job. The law allows testing but does not mandate it. I asked specifically who would be doing the testing for the state. He answered that they had no idea of how to go about it and had no plans to do any testing. So I can grow whatever I want and only have to worry about the Feds swooping down and confiscating my land.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Anything with more value as generic organic matter should be mulched. Green farming practice should come first.

Test and see how far you can use sifting right up to the limit.

I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BELOW: "the 25% plants"?
-SamS

That would apply to old hash plants (even Sensi's IME) and other mixed THC/CBD genetics. Once the 25% plants are bred together, the THC should only be trace, forever. It's not certain that high CBD percentages are necessary for anything other than saying you have the highest CBD plant available. We in the flatlands somehow got by with single-digit THC for a long time and were fine with it. It was plenty effective and I'd smoke it again. My 80's outdoor (brickweed x ditchweed) x ditchweed was great and all my friends loved it, since we hicks weren't revolving around California. This grow's indoor generic ditchweed really tightened up mid-flower after being extremely leggy, and it has plenty of trichomes, just not the desirable glandular trichomes than can perhaps replace the others with breeding. I'm as optimistic on breeding in drug strain character as ever. Last grows very indica x mostly sativa gave uniform, stout, fast, indica F1's - the indica genes weren't knocked out. It remains to be seen if this is preferable to going somewhere where you don't know anyone or anything, trying to obtain the right clones, and transporting across several state lines.

X

 

[G.O. Joe]

I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BELOW: "the 25% plants"?

The "1 in 4" in the quote. Not including other genes, and in nonconformist notation, that's the Mendelian THCCBD X THCCBD = THC + THCCBD + THCCBD + CBD. (CBD X CBD = CBD, THC X THC = THC, CBD X THC = THCCBD)

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

The "1 in 4" in the quote. Not including other genes, and in nonconformist notation, that's the Mendelian THCCBD X THCCBD = THC + THCCBD + THCCBD + CBD. (CBD X CBD = CBD, THC X THC = THC, CBD X THC = THCCBD)

That is what I though but I wanted to be sure that is what you meant.
It will be 25% if large numbers are grown, if small numbers are grown the 25% number might not be seen.
Great quote, see it did not take so long.....
-SamS

 

[DutchHempCBD]

Thanks for all the input and replies! Some of these discussion are going though. The entire discussion about high CBD plant from the US is one of them. For this pilot experiment we can only choose from the list of the 51 approved EU varieties of hemp. So if any of you have a suggestion for a hemp plant in this list that has a high CBD content and that grows well in the Netherlands then I'm all ears.

Finola at 51 days from seed:

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=52224&pictureid=1229064&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

My god, she is setting seed at 51 days! Speedy bitches....

Thanks for sharing, now I can see the photos. Did your Finola samples flower automatically or did you have to change the lighting cycles? As for the development, like OO says I think once they grow outside they will develop thicker stems.

Anything with more value as generic organic matter should be mulched. Green farming practice should come first.

Can you expand on this point. Because if there is economic and nutritional value in the leaves, why shouldn't we harvest that?

Test and see how far you can use sifting right up to the limit.

For sure we'll see how far we can go.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

@Chunkypigs: In answer to your question, see quote from original post.



Growing LEGAL hemp makes is possible to supply large amounts of CBD material at low prices in comparison to ILLEGAL cannabis.

Growing any Cannabis outdoors in the Netherlands for seed production is legal. So grow a early high CBD variety and lightly seed the crop. Wow, it is legal in Holland. You will only need 1/10 as many plants and can easily get a higher CBD/THC ratio then from most hemp. Cheaper to grow cheaper to produce.
Oh, and you stress legality? In the Netherlands it is not legal to make oil extracts of Cannabis, it is the same as making heroin, or synthetic drugs.
So unless you plan to not make oil all this is illegal. The same with growing large amounts of un-pollinated Cannabis plants outdoors, illegal, although I am not sure if it is an EU approved low THC variety, that may be legal or not, I advise you to check first.

I have grown thousands of Finola plants before Finola was registered in the EU, and many other EU approved hemp varieties outdoors in the Netherlands, if the weather is bad with cold and rains, the plants will try and flower but could have considerable
problems with mold, something you do not want in a CBD medicine.
They all have real low CBD levels.....
You can not grow monoecious sinsemilla, same with monoecious hybrids.

"Does the pollination of the female hemp flower lower the percentage and/or amount of CBD in that flower? Am I correct in assuming that a part of what could have been flower material with high CBD content is transformed into seeds with very low CBD content? And so in pollinated flowers the total amount of CBD is lower as opposed to unpollinated?"

YES, IT WILL LOWER THC/CBD by 20% to 50%.

Am I correct in assuming that choosing for a dioecious variety enables more control over avoiding pollination as opposed to a monoecious variety? At the stage that sex differentiation takes place males can be taken out manually in a small scale agricultural setup. If female and male plants arise 50/50 ratio this results in sowing at for example 50 kg/ha. In doing this the targeted density of 25 kg/ha of female hemp flowers is reached.

A LOT OF WORK TO SEX 1,OOO SQ METERS OF HEMP. AND IT MAY BE NOT LEGAL TO GROW WITHOUT SEED MAKING.

Could there be an advantage in choosing a monoecious variety with a high female predominance (e.g. > 85% female and < 15% monoecious and/or males). Some variety similar to the Canadian hemp variety Alyssa (though not EU certified…)? In that case only 15% or less of the plants have to be removed manually.

IF IT IS NOT EU APPROVED, THEN FOR SURE YOU CAN NOT GROW SINSEMILLA HEMP. IT IS ILLEGAL.

"This is due to the fact that there is no specialised equipment for harvesting the hemp plant parts."

WRONG, BOTH ITALY AND HUNGRY AND FRANCE HAVE DEVELOPED SMALL SCALE HEMP TRIAL HARVESTING EQUIPMENT, SOME SPECIALIZED FOR SEED HARVESTS SOME FOR FIBER.

"Raw from the plant. Can be used straight or in for example a salad or smoothie (like Dr. William Courtney). Storage in fridge or freezer."

BE SURE THEY DO NOT HAVE MOLDS ON THEM....

"Oil processing. An example of this would be blending raw or dried flowers in vegetable oil that can withstand heating. Some examples of these vegetable oils are coconut oil and olive oil. The decarboxylation, drying and heating can be done on the stove or in the oven at 125°C for about 35 minutes. Desired oils that are more fragile (e.g. hemp seed oil, pumpkin seed oil) can be mixed in after the decarboxylation process when the blend has cooled down (≤ 40°C)."

FOR SURE ILLEGAL IN THE NETHERLANDS.
I LIKE THE IDEA BUT MAYBE YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND HEMP A BIT BETTER BEFORE YOU BEGIN? I say EU approved hemp is a poor source of CBD.
here is some older hemp data:
http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/iha02207.html

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Some of these discussion are going though. The entire discussion about high CBD plant from the US is one of them. For this pilot experiment we can only choose from the list of the 51 approved EU varieties of hemp. So if any of you have a suggestion for a hemp plant in this list that has a high CBD content and that grows well in the Netherlands then I'm all ears.

I OFF POSTED BECAUSE PEOPLE ASKED ME QUESTIONS, I CAN STOP POSTING ALTOGETHER, IT IS YOUR THREAD. JUST TELL ME.


Did your Finola samples flower automatically or did you have to change the lighting cycles? .

Outdoors in Holland they flower easily, but unless the weather is dryer, it is not so easy.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Thanks for your hemp wisdom. Yeah.... female only would be nice. And no partial pollination isn't a problem. I just don't want the flowers to turn into a big bush of seeds. I know for a fact that the THC and CBD content of seeds is VERY low.

PLEASE POST ANALYSIS THAT SHOW THC/CBD INSIDE SEEDS.
NEVER SEEN ONE THAT I BELIEVED.
-SamS

I feel that part of the energy that would otherwise go into creating flowers will go into seeds leading to lower CBD content.

It's such a shame that there isn't like one BIG database on all the hemp varieties, how they grow best, what the cannabinoid content is, what they can be used for etc. One of these days I'll contact the people behind the Chamaeleon variety and ask what the female percentage and cannabinoid content is.

SEE MY PERVIOUS POST....http://www.internationalhempassociat.../iha02207.html OR CONTACT THE EIHA
11th International Conference of the European Industrial Hemp Association, 21 - 22 May 2014, Wesseling near Cologne, Germany.

http://www.eiha.org/
-SAMS

The soil that we are growing on is one of best agricultural soils in the world. Very fertile! So we are not to worried about that. If needed additional organic fertilisation is possible.

A couple of weeks ago I called to the main French seed company.... no luck. The guy ONLY spoke French. I guess I have to call one more time to see if I get lucky and speak English with someone.



Pfff... choices, choices.... yeah, I think a Polish variety would also work out. What do you think about the monoecious Tygra ->
Tygra guaranties high yield of straw, seed and fiber. It is characterized by the shortest vegetation period among all Polish cultivars. LINK

IF YOU DO THIS IN THE NETHERLANDS PM ME WITH INSTRUCTIONS ON WHERE TO SEE THE CROP WHEN UP. I LIVE IN AMSTERDAM SO IT IS EASY FOR ME TO DROP BY. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE FINOLA AGAIN....
I HAVE GROWN INDUSTRIAL HEMP IN MORE THEN 25 COUNTRIES, CANADA, ALL OVER THE EU FROM THE FAR NORTH TO BARI, ITALY IN THE SOUTH, ALL OVER RUSSIA, UKRAINE, CHINA, ASIA, ALL OVER!
-SamS

 

[oldchuck]

@Dutch, I did fool with the photoperiod issue a little. My usual method with weed is a pretty standard 18/6 for veg and 12/12 for flower. I started the Finola all at 18/6. The males showed themselves clearly at about 20 days from sprout under 18/6. They were still pretty small. Then I separated them into two groups of both males and females. One group stayed at 18/6, the other went into the 12/12 flower room. I left them separate for a couple of weeks and noticed little difference in development, pretty much the same as outline Finola publishes. There was a long separation between the time the male flowers showed and the time the females were ready to accept pollen. Once they were all together again in the flower room at about day 35 there was a growth spurt. Pollination probably took place around day 40 to 50. Seed started to develop around day 50 and is continuing. The remaining male is nearly dead, the females still sitting on their eggs. I think the photoperiod change had some effect but the developmental phases happened despite photoperiod change.

@Sam, you said, "WRONG, BOTH ITALY AND HUNGRY AND FRANCE HAVE DEVELOPED SMALL SCALE HEMP TRIAL HARVESTING EQUIPMENT, SOME SPECIALIZED FOR SEED HARVESTS SOME FOR FIBER."

It would be real helpful if you could supply a link or a brand name reference so I could hunt up some of that equipment. Small scale harvest tools are essential to what I have in mind.

 

[DutchHempCBD]

Growing any Cannabis outdoors in the Netherlands for seed production is legal. So grow a early high CBD variety and lightly seed the crop. Wow, it is legal in Holland. You will only need 1/10 as many plants and can easily get a higher CBD/THC ratio then from most hemp. Cheaper to grow cheaper to produce.

I'm not aware of this information. Can you provide me with the (legal) documents?

Oh, and you stress legality? In the Netherlands it is not legal to make oil extracts of Cannabis, it is the same as making heroin, or synthetic drugs.
So unless you plan to not make oil all this is illegal. The same with growing large amounts of un-pollinated Cannabis plants outdoors, illegal, although I am not sure if it is an EU approved low THC variety, that may be legal or not, I advise you to check first.

No we want to do everything 100% legal, so we will not be making oil.

YES, IT WILL LOWER THC/CBD by 20% to 50%.

Can you provide the information?

A LOT OF WORK TO SEX 1,OOO SQ METERS OF HEMP. AND IT MAY BE NOT LEGAL TO GROW WITHOUT SEED MAKING.

Can you point me in a direction to look to find out if it's legal or not?

WRONG, BOTH ITALY AND HUNGRY AND FRANCE HAVE DEVELOPED SMALL SCALE HEMP TRIAL HARVESTING EQUIPMENT, SOME SPECIALIZED FOR SEED HARVESTS SOME FOR FIBER.

I wasn't saying that not equipment exists. I was pointing out that there is no specific equipments available on the farm where we are going to grow.

@Dutch, I did fool with the photoperiod issue a little. My usual method with weed is a pretty standard 18/6 for veg and 12/12 for flower. I started the Finola all at 18/6. The males showed themselves clearly at about 20 days from sprout under 18/6. They were still pretty small. Then I separated them into two groups of both males and females. One group stayed at 18/6, the other went into the 12/12 flower room. I left them separate for a couple of weeks and noticed little difference in development, pretty much the same as outline Finola publishes. There was a long separation between the time the male flowers showed and the time the females were ready to accept pollen. Once they were all together again in the flower room at about day 35 there was a growth spurt. Pollination probably took place around day 40 to 50. Seed started to develop around day 50 and is continuing. The remaining male is nearly dead, the females still sitting on their eggs. I think the photoperiod change had some effect but the developmental phases happened despite photoperiod change.

Thanks for the explanation. I wonder if the Finola would have flowered if you didn't change the light cycle. Finola is reported as being an autoflower.