Drivers Have Right To Refuse Search

[BobbleheadJed]

Drivers Have Right To Refuse Search in the title is technically correct BUT...

....according to the Democrats a drug dog sniff is not ever a search so the Democrat union cops can detain human beings until their drug dogs arrive to give them a "real" reason to search your entire vehicle. Welcome to Obama's Fascist America.

 

[SmokyMtnToker]

Ok,, all that time wasted to show examples that ALL have factors that give the cop ' reasonable grounds'. It is NOT legal for a cop to detain you for long periods IF THERE IS NO OTHER GROUNDS!! In EACH case cited, which are the EXCEPTIONS to the rule, there were circumstances that gave the cop grounds to believe a crime had been committed. In one case there was
rerasonable suspicion' developed BEFORE the drug dog was called. IF the cop has REASONABLE grounds to believe then of course he may detain.

The cases that I refer to, which are the MAJORITY, there is NO EVIDENCE of anything. In that case, the time limit is about the same time needed for a ticket. Show me a case where the cop had NOTHING but the drivers refusal to submit to a warantless search and a court upheld a prolonged detention. THAT is the issue. You have provided a lot of cases, that when dissected, show that the cop had factors on his side that gave him ' reasonable grounds'. If the cop has nothing but a hunch, and detains you for too long, the case WIll be thrown out. Of course it may take an appeal to a higher court; most lower courts will violate rights hoping you cannot afford an appeal, but most cases like this get tossed at lower levels.

It all boils down to what the cop has for ' reasonable grounds' BESIDE the refusal to give consent. I could find dozens of cases and cite them here that show charges being thrown out...but unless the entire transcript is read, we cannot know why. For some people here to quote cases that have elements that go far beyond a mere refusal to give consent is NOT giving us an honest debate.

Here is the truth: If all a cop has is your refusal to give consent, they cannot detain you longer than for a ticket. Period. What would the cop tell a judge? " Your Honor, I kept the driver waiting for an hour on a hot highway so a dog could come, and the only reason is because the driver used his Constitutional rights and refused consent". Not only would the cop look like a total moron, he would be open to a civil rights lawsuit for illegal detention among other things.

There MUST be ' articulable' reasons for detention. That means a cop must state with intelligent and meaningful words what grounds he had for detaining a citizen. If there is NOTHING other than the refusal, there is NO grounds for the detention. Period.

It is easy to quote cases, but in each case presented here, there were other factors; the cops had MORE than the mere refusal. If you read each one there were extenuating circumstances that justified the detention. And, in most cases, had an appeal been used, there would have been many of those thrown out. Most times a court will let the case go uipward, even if defective, because so few defendants can afford appeals.

I am right about this; of course there are EXCEPTIONS based on the grounds present, but it still remains FACT: If all the cop has is a refusal to give consent, there is NO reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed, and thus the detention is invalid. Prove your case from either a Supreme Court or federal Appelate Court decision that gives us a case where the cop had nothing but the refusal and yet the detention was still upheld. You cannot. End of story.

 

[BobbleheadJed]

The cops always have more than just a refusal to search from any interaction with their slaves. If they pull you over, they can keep you until their drugs dogs come because they pulled you over. You looked a little funny so you are waiting for the drug dogs. Your car has a dent, you are waiting for the drug dogs. Democrats say those are reasonable grounds for searches. That's how it works. Sucks huh?

 

[SmokyMtnToker]

Nonsense!! read this and maybe you will get the point:http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/28/28.F3d.1214.93-5925.html

This case alone has most of the case law and elements that pertain to this issue. If you read the opiniopns cited here, it will clear up any misunderstandings. Just a quote from one part:

In United States v. Guzman, 864 F.2d 1512, 1519 (10th Cir.1988),1 another circuit court recognized:

10
An officer conducting a routine traffic stop may request a driver's license and vehicle registration, run a computer check, and issue a citation. [Citations omitted]. When the driver has produced a valid license and proof that he is entitled to operate the car, he must be allowed to proceed on his way, without being subject to further delay by police for additional questioning.

And there is much more..I of course could find a lot more, but the federal law is clear: Unless there is ARTICULABLE reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for detention. Period.

 

[Julian]

Your the guy who didn't know the difference between probable cause and reasonable articulable suspicion, right? (of which you keep referring to as "reasonable grounds", and make it to be something very difficult to achieve ).........

 

[JJScorpio]

Nonsense!! read this and maybe you will get the point:http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/28/28.F3d.1214.93-5925.html

This case alone has most of the case law and elements that pertain to this issue. If you read the opiniopns cited here, it will clear up any misunderstandings. Just a quote from one part:

In United States v. Guzman, 864 F.2d 1512, 1519 (10th Cir.1988),1 another circuit court recognized:

10
An officer conducting a routine traffic stop may request a driver's license and vehicle registration, run a computer check, and issue a citation. [Citations omitted]. When the driver has produced a valid license and proof that he is entitled to operate the car, he must be allowed to proceed on his way, without being subject to further delay by police for additional questioning.

And there is much more..I of course could find a lot more, but the federal law is clear: Unless there is ARTICULABLE reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for detention. Period.

The case you quote is from 1988. I would guess there is something more current. Anyways.........

As for "sufficient articulable suspicion to justify a continued stop", you needed to read further. A driver simply acting "panicky" was found to be enough to further investigate. There are many others. Stuttering, slurred speach or words, nervousness, red eyes, squinted eyes, perceived smell of alcohol or drugs and dozens more, along with lies Officers can tell. If I had to take a guess I would say for every one thousand people that fall into these circumstances, maybe one person has their charges overturned. A lot of this could probably be blamed on plea bargains, the inability of the Defendant to afford these appeals or just plain ignorance.......

 

[BigHerm]

Someone driving heavy that has never been pulled over before is fucked from the get go. No matter how much you prepare, when that cop says "do you know why i pulled you over today?" you're most likely going to be visibly nervous, probably shaking and sweating...

I always try to drive in rush hour and thunderstorms.... pigs melt in the rain

 

[Julian]

A driver simply acting "panicky" was found to be enough to further investigate. There are many others.

Well, it is always noted "nervous" in itself recognized as "typical" of the average person, but the fine line becomes during a typical stop, average (innocent) people will eventually relax more as the encounter progresses....(And of course as I am sure you know, and many know, the basis of making it known one is "free to go", without citation, before requesting the search ....)

To anyone unaware, the procedure is this:
Your stopped, they ask you to step out, (always, common, expect it) some idle chit chat while they observe, followed by "a warning, and your free to go".....

You take your warning......you turn and begin to walk towards vehicle......and on step 2 you hear from behind you "Hey,_______before you go....do you mind if I ask you a question?..".....followed by an overview of who they are, what they are doing, leading to search request......

To anyone who has never experienced it........well.......they ask you to step out to monitor your body language...towards them...towards car...your movement...(no touching head, hair, eyes, chin, ears, and direct eye contact only........watch your blinking...)

There are no "innocent" questions......they are asking what they are asking to judge response...

Example: Travel......your source, destination, duration of your trip....ie: They are waiting for you to say "a day or two", but you know not to say a day or two...

When they approach vehicle, they are studying the interior (additional notes for articulable suspicion.......examples: A pillow and blanket would be reported as "Officer ___ noted a pillow and blanket, which indicated based on previous investigations subject(s) was sleeping in car, which is common among traffickers, as they prefer to drive straight through, and do not check into hotels as they would have to leave the vehicle".....)

Garbage from fast food restaurants has been noted as a pattern and "indicator" relating to not stopping for meals, eating on road, driving straight through, etc......

All these relate to leaving the loaded vehicle unattended......

Questions regarding itinerary have to do with trying to catch inconsistencies, as vague responses have always been noted......

The fine line is also in behavior as the "average" motorist will not be apologetic, cooperative, and good natured upon being probed by Law Enforcement.....(of course the fine line being the reverse may also cause undesired attention......)

I don't care who you are, or what you've done.......it's hard to maintain, and, most likely one of the most terrifying experiences of ones life...
.

Someone driving heavy that has never been pulled over before is fucked from the get go. No matter how much you prepare, when that cop says "do you know why i pulled you over today?" you're most likely going to be visibly nervous, probably shaking and sweating...

Most people never prepare at all. Have no idea what they are facing. Have no idea what reactions and statements are correct and which are not.

I always try to drive in rush hour and thunderstorms.... pigs melt in the rain

There's several different schools of thought......

Rain and snow ideal on many levels..(winter a bonus because your OTR's basically are reduced to 0 below freezing (32 degrees) if packed in exterior of vehicle)....also an argument had now and then regarding dogs effectiveness in sub zero weather......winter also brings many accidents when weather bad which takes resources and their focus off the road......

Night preferred by many for several reasons of varying significance....(visuals reduced at a distance), but I think of greater importance is changes the tone of any searches, and less likely to be as thorough than if 12 noon...with full visibility.....also, different agencies have different levels of activity during different times........12 noon greater visibility and more activity than during dark.......

Note: Driving straight through unwise.....(Reason: What you are avoiding will be the mental challenge of your life if it arises.......10-20-30hrs on road without sleep your not mentally prepared, even if well versed.....)

One also would have to know their routes......sometimes might take many runs to realize the best routes, and, like anything, one might have to further adjust based on new experiences......ie: "I prefer to leave this time, pass through here day, then pass through here night, then come out here in the morning rush hour, then finish off in afternoon/evening rush hour"....

Sure, fine....until something happens your first leg, and then it becomes "Leave here at this time, reach here this time, but now uncool to pass so check in, sleep some, then when XX o clock comes, pick back up and come out in morning rush hour then wrap trip up afternoon/evening rush hour.....

Different times and places and circumstances should also be noted....ie: One might have more freedom upon reaching destination depending on ones plates........in some cases the farther one is, the safer they are, and in some cases the closer they are the greater the risk......ie: Tx plates in Texas....the farther east one goes, the hotter they become........similarly......if NY plates, the farther one goes east the safer they become, etc......

Holidays?......this holiday?...extremely unsafe......troopers schedules changed, many on road, playing the numbers game, etc......leading up to a holiday?, following a holiday?, a little safer and forces on road reduced, etc.....

I once drove through an section of the country in pitch black, worst snow conditions in years..... Dangerous as fuck.....wears you down mentally (big time), but doesn't get any more safe than that ....

You time your loads to best accommodate favorable conditions and you make a "real" trip out of it......(leads right back to being in sun for 2 weeks but no tan.....being somewhere for 3 weeks but only 2 changes of clothes, etc, etc.......)

The easiest lie?

One that's true

 

[Julian]

Have been talking to people about my statements, and topics, and would like to make several things very clear....(nothing which hasn't been pounded in over and over, but, maybe presented in a slightly different manner......)

1. I think there is absolutely no one, anywhere, anytime, if clean, that should not absolutely bust their balls as much as possible....

Yes, you ignore questions and state "Am I being detained, am I free to go".....

That in itself may very well prevent any "reasonable articulable suspicion" from being formed to being with....

Or will it?

Back on track, we made distinctions between interstate (and hot spots) and more local matters......

But a double edged sword....let me explain......

As said before....certain interstate spots, there is most likely a dog within 10-15 minutes...

Which is more than enough time for one to , very slowly....run their check and bide time for arrival......(Free air sniff acceptable across the board......)

I am merely stating that one single approach will not work like one is told anywhere, anytime, and possibly, the situation altered depending on the encounter....

What is one is heavy and things are not packed well?...at all?..(which the flip side is more likely to occur local....as anyone interstate has hopefully taken proper precautions.....)

One can find cases in which packing was right.......K9's did not hit on it.....and consent got them....(To anyone who isn't aware.....many jurisdictions/troopers are equipped......what's "equipped"?....Buster K9's, FO Fiberscopes, etc.....

So goes back to.....no......I don't think one single answer, approach for anything......

And that's the game....

All the more reason why I myself always put forth an argument about people having a proper grasp about what they are doing and knowledge of what they face...

Any and every encounter is a judgment call...(and one that has to be made in milliseconds under extreme once in a lifetime amounts of stress.....)

Flip side is anything other than Interstate or certain units may very well not have access to such...may not have such quick access to K9's......etc......

But then again most will not pack for local with the case they would in above cases........

I don't know why......(But we know why...because we become comfortable in familiar surroundings.....runs we have done 100 times....."our" neighborhood(s)....etc......)

That was the basis of statements above........initial encounter....refuse to answer and play the "am I being detained, am I free to go".....well, local might very well work (or not, since your not packed secure....).....Interstate wouldn't work in hot spots.....would raise more attention then it's worth and K9 there quick.........(But then back to packing......was packing right?, is vehicle clean prior to packing?....K9 might not hit.......)

But all goes back to an understanding of the overall process and indicators and such.....

If packed right, if clean, if right story?...well......they might not anyway (average would be 20% searched and 10% of so of those dirty)...so, one is already ahead of the game understanding not everyone searched and not always dirty...........

Or they might.......

Playing hardball......well...your running the risk and, as physics would dictate....you push and either they cave or push back......

Interstate Interdiction units not going to cave, and, no way of knowing if your getting a false alert which ends you and vehicle back at site and vehicle on the lift......(which they are entitled to with a hit from the K9......)

So.....No.........

Any single approach is never advisable....anytime, anywhere.....in any situation in life......

You learn all you can, you understand all you can....you ideally put yourself in their place acquiring their knowledge, and you make a judgment call based upon the specific situation.....

Personally....I think all (everyone, everywhere) should go out tomorrow and the day after and the day after and bust all their balls.......(Million man march...how about a month long million person cross country drive ..........)

Preaching not my intention.,.......many take it as so....but...I am unfortunate enough to have been involved in many such endeavors....many times......(I am sure there are people reading saying "ehh, I've done those routes, not a problem".......)

Well......if that's what your saying......then you don't know, or have been what you think you have, because I've said before that too ....(and if one knew what they think, they would know the different "stages" in thought......and, thinking one is indestructible.....well......That's a very early feeling......

Let's see how you feel doing it weekly, biweekly a yr later (if you make if that long)...or 2 years later....or 5............

(Usually, if one makes it through a stop....they never do it again....have seen that 100 times..........sometimes people will make a couple more.......but they can never get past that stop........it stays with you...........)

Then you have those who have made it through 2.....and the fear gets replaced by the earlier feeling of indestructibility ......they don't continue learning....they don't study......and they eventually get cracked by something they should have known.........

But didn't.......

One can draw what they like.........

One can question what they like also.......but truth of matter is I have logged more miles than probably everyone who is reading combined.....

How do I know that?.....

Because people with certain experiences who have been exposed to such, make different statements ...

I've never seen a true experienced and veteran professional which didn't treat his 100th or 200th time like his first........(The invincible comes very early on.......anyone who is smart loses that thought process quick )

Just as on their end it's a "numbers game"....so is it on yours.....might make it through XX number of times......and think that a reflection on ones "skills"...(when really never "tested".......)

They're playing numbers game.....which means ones "luck" not infinite...

Just a matter of time till one is selected out of a group......

One could try and do everything possible to assist (most don't)...learn all they can (most don't)......

I share a lot because something most do without fully understanding, and then find themselves in a very bad spot....

There is no amount of research and learning that will necessarily guarantee walking......

But it helps

Can never learn enough....combined with experience......I've been there....and, the amount of learning and understanding one can achieve even month to month is incredible...

You sit back....you reflect .......and you don't even remember who you were a year before......

And to those who have and know?......

Take a look in the mirror week to week...month to month......

Grey hair doesn't take years to produce.....they know now it happens much, much quicker..

It can appear overnight....

 

[h^2 O]

this is an interesting, grey, area......we see it on "Cops" all the time - "you don't have anything you shouldn't have in your car right? so I wouldn't find anything if I took a look around right?" "Nope, nothin" "So you wouldn't have anything to worry about if I searched your vehicle?" "Nope"

 

[Dr. Smokepuma]

all most a key word