Does Running 240V save you money or your electricity bill??

[madpenguin]

If you are pulling say 80% out of a breaker for 120v you will shorten the mechanical life of that breaker.

Half that current through a 240 breaker is less of a stress to the whole panel. All of the combined heat in the power panel will impact the life expectancy of all of the breakers.

Oxidation of the contacts effects breaker life expectancy, not heat directly. Tripping your breakers manually while under load once a year may extend their life but not by much. Breakers can last half a century or more so who really cares? They are designed to run 80% full load 24/7...

The reasons that factories use 277v is so they don't have to buy a transformer.

What?

I use three phase Every place I can.

I'm curious. Those places being?

Three phase is balanced.

No more balanced than having 2 phases. They are still geometrically tapped at the XFMR to negate each other.

When you start to use 120v of a three phase panel you have a very hard time getting it to balance. Even in purely lighting it is a bit of work to balance a three phase lighting panel.

Not if you use MWBC's or bother to map your circuits out on SP loads....

 

[Tonatiuh]

where it could be a saving running 220 is ....say ur running 4 lights at 110,you could run 8 lights at 220 using the same amount of amps.
peace-T-

 

[Elite]

where it could be a saving running 220 is ....say ur running 4 lights at 110,you could run 8 lights at 220 using the same amount of amps.
peace-T-

But STILL twice the wattage...

Sorry Randude...I was trying to keep it simple...
For you average application, 240V for lighting ballasts is basically pointless...excellent point about the life of the breaker...But how much does a 2 pole 20A Square D "QO series" cost $20??

Elite

 

[DonkDBZ]

The only way you are gonna save using 240v is if you know how to wire it yourself. Using 240v is really gonna only help if you look up the spec's of ballasts before you buy em and see if they list if the Power Factor is higher with 240 vs 120. Most C&C ballasts have PF of 90% and none really get to 95% unless using 480.

Digitals are best cause most have 99% PF at 240v My global greenhouse says in instructions 240v required for higher PF

 

[madpenguin]

First off, I'm not being confrontational. You didn't have to bold type everything.

I am refering to the oxidation of the housing material of the breakers, their pivot points being skewd and the contact eventually not making or clearing cleanly and followed by the complete degredation of the entire breaker, and all of those in the panel from the convection of the over heated breaker. I have done important legal studies on this very thing

Oxidation of plastic? Really? Maybe theres something I'm not understanding above and beyond the contacts getting corroded, but then again, I'm not an engineer.

Yeah, the voltage of 480v is very common in most factories (we are talking USA right?) so line to ground is 277v. No need for a transformer. You can take two wires directly from the three phase panel.

I work on delta/wye systems frequently. No need to explain but thanks all the same. My original point was higher voltage offers less Copper loss. Yes, this isn't the reason industrial uses higher voltage. Distribution in general and effacy of motor loads is why industrial uses 3 phase, not so they don't have to buy a transformer. Sorry, but I found that statement kind of funny, thus the sarcastic "what?"

I'm curious. Those places being?

Anyplace, especially motors. Keeps current down and easier to balance than single phase loads of varying degree hitting all of the buses in random utilization.

Yes. I know this. We are on a residential marijuana growing forum, thus the reason for my statement. I prefer 3 phase as well but 95% of all people on this forum are on single phase so I found your comment confusing as to it's purpose.

No more balanced than having 2 phases. They are still geometrically tapped at the XFMR to negate each other.


Yeah, but you are talking out of context. I am talking about using a bunch of 120v loads vs the same in three phase. If you don't see that you don't know what you are talking about. You take some three phase loads you connect it to all three phases for all of them. No neutral needed. If you connect a bunch of single phase loads their access is scattered. This puts stress on the neutral and the transformer.

See my earlier quote below. Again, your stating the obvious. With regards to current on the grounded conductor of a SP 120v load, who cares? If you balance your panel out, the main feeder see's exactally the same thing as if you were running 3 pole MWBC's....

If someone wants to start throwing SP's in a carefully balanced panel (with regards to the main feeder), then it's NMP... If the feeder neutral is sized properly then the point is moot. I would rather have the option to kill one bank of lights than forced to kill three.

Not if you use MWBC's or bother to map your circuits out on SP loads....

for the sake of argument of why I prefer 3 phase; If lights (say in a factory) are all on all of time it is easy to balance. But what if someone turns off one or any of them, or one just goes out? The best balance possible is out the window. That would not happen with three phase.. But that would not even be the case with 277v lighting because it is a single phase load. This conversation is all over the place.

Again, I agree with you. I prefer 3 phase as well but you switched the conversation to a full blown industrial setting which does none of the readers here any good seeing as how they don't have a choice in the matter.

I am an electrical engineer. I have been doing it for 30 years. I have some pretty famous accomplishments to boot. I am an automation and controls specialist, but I dabble in power distribution or lighting off and on. Your confrontational manner to me is sort of silly, but I am bored and going along with it.

You should be proud then. Actually, it sounds like you are. You gave some really broad and irrelevant statements as to the issue at hand, which is 240 vs 120 & copper loss. Why you decided to go off on a tangent about 3 phase loads on a residential conversation is just a little confusing to me.

In fact, I find your sudden and abrupt increase in MWBC/Balancing knowledge a little confusing right now. Just a couple weeks ago, you told someone they could start a fire by using a MWBC because of double the load on the grounded conductor, but now your advocating the use of them.... For some reason, I find you very confusing in general, but I am bored and going along with it.

 

[magiccannabus]

Magnetic ballasts also produce a lot less heat at 220/240V US. They are more than twice as efficient in terms of ballast loss. It's due to the simple fact that the higher the incoming voltage on a transformer relative to the output voltage, the more efficient it becomes. It's less work to convert it basically. 220/240V produces a much stronger magnetic field in windings. For digital ballasts I'm not sure it makes much difference though.

 

[poonugz]

Has anyone out there started on 120V then switched to 240v? Did you save money on your electrical bill? I read this whole thread, but still have not seen an understandable reason for why switching to 240v would not save you money. I believe that reducing ampers will help you use less kilowatt HOURS, even though you are still using the same amount of kilowatts either way. That is just the way my friend explained it to me, and it made great sense. I acknowledge the fact that I could be very 110% wrong about this, as I do not know much about electricity. I would just like to know why I am wrong.

 

[Elite]

All the info is stated in this thread...and unfortunately much more. If you can't follow the thread...sorry, I don't know how else to explain it...

2 knowledgeable Electricians and an Electrical Engineer are stating the Fact that it doesn't save you money (or such a small amount its not worth mentioning) perhaps you should just take the advice...

I don't quite understand how the Rotary engine works...but I don't need Dr. Wankel to tell me it does...or how...

Elite

 

[CottonMouth]

I might be way off my rocker (I am an electronics tech not an electrician) but I just put my fluke 87 on my main lines comming into the house and I got 467 v comming in. maybe my fluke hasn't been calibrated in a while but someone said earlier in the thread that the power company drops 240 to the house. Why would I have a 480 line as a drop, do some power companies drop 440/480 to the main house box?

and the meter was on AC not DC lol

CM

 

[Elite]

I might be way off my rocker

Uhhh...yah your "rocker" is fucking busted. I don't recommend checking again until you have a clue what your doing.
Sounds like you know just enough to be dangerous...
NO OFFENSE...SERIOUSLY!!

Elite

 

[Elite]

My total amperage was just under 16A. Typically, you'd use #12 AWG. I already had quite a bit of #10 left over from a previous job that I slipped into the back of my truck without telling anyone. I used it. 16A @ about 130' from breaker to thermostat. Do the math or not. Just by looking at the resistance values of #12 and #10, I know I'm almost halving my watt loss. The wire was free, otherwise I wouldn't have considered it.

I didn't really read the thread until now because the direction it took...

I always had a "rule of thumb" running wires long distances, (Large houses, Pier Feeders, Electronic Gates ect.) every hundred feet I'll "step" the wire up a size (THNN of course).
If by your calculations your halving your watt loss...why won't you've considered it unless it was free?? (bare in mind I'm not paying for the wire either...I'm just running the shit)

Elite

 

[madpenguin]

If by your calculations your halving your watt loss...why won't you've considered it unless it was free?? (bare in mind I'm not paying for the wire either...I'm just running the shit)

This was in my attic so on my dime. #10 is considerably more expensive than #12. I overshot when calculating liner foot worth of baseboard heat for the square footage I was trying to heat. Any voltage drop I would incrue by using #12 wouldn't matter to me. It's a resistive load so who cares if they see exactly 240v? :wink:

And, again, as the earlier calcs show, watt loss is a joke so I'm not going to specifically jump up to #10 just for that.

Using #12, they would have been slightly less efficient with the voltage drop due to distance. No biggie since I over calculated the amount of heaters needed. I don't do that on the job, just when the $ comes out of my pocket. Seeing as how I had 200' of #10 on a shelf in my basement, it was a no brainer on what to use.

 

[madpenguin]

Yea, I meant no disrespect earlier. Engineers and Electricians often have a cat's-n-dog's kind of relationship, which is probably why my knee jerked, due to past expierence. Often times things look really good on paper but prove otherwise in the field. On the same token, Electricians sometimes fail to grasp the entire scope of an application and just "shoot from the hip" which can really screw you down the road.

I think the 2 professions should switch places for a day. I'd go back to being a "rope puller" with renewed vigor.

 

[Elite]

LOL, people I don't consider Electricians (despite their job title) I call "Wire Handlers"

Often times things look really good on paper but prove otherwise in the field. On the same token, Electricians sometimes fail to grasp the entire scope of an application and just "shoot from the hip" which can really screw you down the road.

How true...I can't tell you how many times I just look at the prints and wonder WTF they were thinking (or even if they were thinking in general).

On the or hand, when things are properly engineered...my calculator, meter, code book, ect can stay in the truck and I can go back to "wire handling"

Elite

 

[thekingofNY]

So i guess the question is.... what happens when u bring two different electricians and an electrical engineer into a room?

Gotta be a joke in there somewhere.

 

[madpenguin]

Two Electricians and an engineer walk into a bar.....

Nah... I'll tell ya a lame Electrical joke tho. Some of you have probably heard it already.

Two atoms are walking down the street. One of them stops and looks at the other and says, "I think I just lost an electron". The other one says, "Are you sure?". The other says, "Yea, I'm positive"....

 

[madpenguin]

Yea, that has got to be the most "nerdiest" joke of all time...

I like it anyway...

 

[Tokin_Jo]

lol, lots of misinformation in this thread. I wonder how many people besides myself have actually switched from 110 to 240v. We did and Yes we saved money on our electric bill. We saved $150 in "delivery charges". Bill was over $1300. These were 240v magnetic ballasts. Guess what you want, thats what most here are doing.

 

[sparkjumper]

And what country are you living in that you save 150 bucks on "delivery charges" simply by runnig ballasts at 240V as opposed to 120V?Not the U.S bubba it dont work thataway round here

 

[madpenguin]

Then you live in a country that for some whacked out reason monitors amperage as well as wattage. Not that way on the other side of the drink. US is wattage consumption only.