SilentFeet
Member
What I mean is when you first start 12/12 and the plants go through stretch, does high levels of nitrogen make the plants stretch more than they usually would?
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Does high nitrogen cause excess stretch?
- Thread starter SilentFeet
- Start date
PerfectGrower
Vendor
We have proven in controlled experiments and weekly tissue analysis that you need enough Nitrogen for your plants to absorb Potassium.
Do not run Nitrogen too low in flowering.
I know you probably have no way of knowing how much Nitrogen you are feeding with the nutrients you are using, but if you do, you want to keep Nitrogen PPM levels above 125.
Do not run Nitrogen too low in flowering.
I know you probably have no way of knowing how much Nitrogen you are feeding with the nutrients you are using, but if you do, you want to keep Nitrogen PPM levels above 125.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Yes, excessive levels of nitrogen (over 200ppm) will cause excessive stretch. It's also been known to slow down maturation, extending flowering time. In the end it really messes up the quality for smoking and increases costs for extraction.
PerfectGrower
Vendor
200 ppm of Nitrogen is surely excessive during flowering. 130-160 is a healthy range to shoot for.
The "OLD" guard used to say Drop the photoperiod to 12-12 and cut off Nitrogen.
As with many things, as our understanding improves we realize that you don't need exactly 12-12 and you do not want to completely cut nitrogen. Without nitrogen, at the end of the flower cycle the plants are barely holding on to life. Thoughts today are that keeping your plant relatively healthy throughout the flower period could be beneficial in yield and possibly potency. I do not think that potency is lost by keeping some N in the diet until the last two weeks of flower. And then at that time you want to cut everything anyway.
Kind of funny if you think about it.
Lets say you are growing clones. You run the clones for about 6 weeks. In that period you do not want to start off with much, if any N. Then the second week you can start to build it up.
So in the following five weeks that you build up to maximum N, you may feed N 2-3 times a week. That means about 10-15 feedings of N total.
Now once you stop feeding N to the plants (we are talking soil here) there is still N in the soil and there will be some N in your flowering food. Still, the plants look sick the last month and they look N deprived.
I would suggest instead of cutting off all the N I would cut it in half. That means if there is some N in your flowering food I would still put some N in during flower. At least from the 2nd week of flower until the 6th.
I mentioned clones but seeds and seedlings are similar. You start with a seed not giving it much food until two weeks of growth, and then you ramp it up gradually. And a lot of people stop at 6 weeks for vegetative growth. 6 weeks to 8 weeks is the period for sexing. If a person wants to use up flower room space with unwanted males until sex is established that means twice as much flower space is needed for a half full room in the end.
mi dos centavos
As with many things, as our understanding improves we realize that you don't need exactly 12-12 and you do not want to completely cut nitrogen. Without nitrogen, at the end of the flower cycle the plants are barely holding on to life. Thoughts today are that keeping your plant relatively healthy throughout the flower period could be beneficial in yield and possibly potency. I do not think that potency is lost by keeping some N in the diet until the last two weeks of flower. And then at that time you want to cut everything anyway.
Kind of funny if you think about it.
Lets say you are growing clones. You run the clones for about 6 weeks. In that period you do not want to start off with much, if any N. Then the second week you can start to build it up.
So in the following five weeks that you build up to maximum N, you may feed N 2-3 times a week. That means about 10-15 feedings of N total.
Now once you stop feeding N to the plants (we are talking soil here) there is still N in the soil and there will be some N in your flowering food. Still, the plants look sick the last month and they look N deprived.
I would suggest instead of cutting off all the N I would cut it in half. That means if there is some N in your flowering food I would still put some N in during flower. At least from the 2nd week of flower until the 6th.
I mentioned clones but seeds and seedlings are similar. You start with a seed not giving it much food until two weeks of growth, and then you ramp it up gradually. And a lot of people stop at 6 weeks for vegetative growth. 6 weeks to 8 weeks is the period for sexing. If a person wants to use up flower room space with unwanted males until sex is established that means twice as much flower space is needed for a half full room in the end.
mi dos centavos
HarvestMoon303
Active member
One of my plants in a "test" DWC was completely saturated with N, by mistake. It's vey dark green, and I had it clawing like crazy. The yield and quality suffered, and she started throwing really small fans. There is basically no difference in height/stretch between this plant and any of the others, which I was much more stingy with the N. They are all the same height. I would have killed this plant (on purpose), but I decided to see what it would do along side of the healthy plants. Too much N killed the yield, looks, and a little of the smell, but didn't do anything to stretch.
So, I'd say that no, by itself, too much N doesn't cause stretching at all. The plant that I ran high in N all through veg and into flower is the same height as plants with very little N. All other factors are the same (lights, temps, humidity, genetics, etc).
I also use some pretty "blue" 315w CMH lights, and they absolutely do not allow for stretch.
Magic Green (Foliar) is an amazing product, but sometimes it's too much.
PerfectGrower
Vendor
One of my plants in a "test" DWC was completely saturated with N, by mistake. It's vey dark green, and I had it clawing like crazy. The yield and quality suffered, and she started throwing really small fans. There is basically no difference in height/stretch between this plant and any of the others, which I was much more stingy with the N. They are all the same height. I would have killed this plant (on purpose), but I decided to see what it would do along side of the healthy plants. Too much N killed the yield, looks, and a little of the smell, but didn't do anything to stretch.
So, I'd say that no, by itself, too much N doesn't cause stretching at all. The plant that I ran high in N all through veg and into flower is the same height as plants with very little N. All other factors are the same (lights, temps, humidity, genetics, etc).
I also use some pretty "blue" 315w CMH lights, and they absolutely do not allow for stretch.
Magic Green (Foliar) is an amazing product, but sometimes it's too much.
Total "Nitrogen" is not total "Nitrates". This is an important difference
. High Nitrates (above 180) can cause toxicity and clawing.
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PerfectGrower
Vendor
I would suggest not cutting off Nitrogen in flower. If you cut it, do it very late in harvest. Even then it does more harm than good. Nitrogen is your foundation. Without it, all the other elements will suffer. This is not an opinion, this is a fact that we have proven.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
When you reach dark green stage you're also negatively affecting growth. Slightly less levels of nitrogen would have seen a difference in plant heights.
SilentFeet
Member
I grow in soil and the problem there is once you fertilize it stays in the soil.
So say I don't want nitrogen in flower, the problem is I can't get rid of the residual nitrogen in the soil.
I have grown plants in the past and they have stretched like hell in flowering, and I think it's because I gave them too much nitrogen in veg to make the grow quickly, and it's still in the soil come flowering.
I have just found a new product, it's called Bloom Booster. The gardening store employees give you a knowing look when you buy that, especially if you buy a heap of plastic pots at the same time.
Its a water soluble fertilizer, there is no way I'm paying the high prices for hydro store nutes, the Bloom Booster is $11 for a packet.
It's NPK is something like 6,14,16.
Last grow I used just potassium in the last half of flower, and it worked ok.
This will be the first time I have used high phosphorous.
I want to get away from the high nitrogen fertilizers I have used in the past.
I really do think it prolongs flowering.
I'm running Critical Mass, 707 Truthband x Black Widow, Bubba's Gift x Black Widow and some C-Plus F3's. A couple of the C-Plus were Blueberry leaning, purple stems and the greeny purple leaves, but they were exhibiting leaf clawing from too much nitrogen, so I tossed them. I was overcrowded as it was otherwise I would have kept them.
But nice to know that the Blueberry Pheno is still in the F3's.
Lights come on in 20 minutes, I may even take the risk of taking a photo or two.
So say I don't want nitrogen in flower, the problem is I can't get rid of the residual nitrogen in the soil.
I have grown plants in the past and they have stretched like hell in flowering, and I think it's because I gave them too much nitrogen in veg to make the grow quickly, and it's still in the soil come flowering.
I have just found a new product, it's called Bloom Booster. The gardening store employees give you a knowing look when you buy that, especially if you buy a heap of plastic pots at the same time.
Its a water soluble fertilizer, there is no way I'm paying the high prices for hydro store nutes, the Bloom Booster is $11 for a packet.
It's NPK is something like 6,14,16.
Last grow I used just potassium in the last half of flower, and it worked ok.
This will be the first time I have used high phosphorous.
I want to get away from the high nitrogen fertilizers I have used in the past.
I really do think it prolongs flowering.
I'm running Critical Mass, 707 Truthband x Black Widow, Bubba's Gift x Black Widow and some C-Plus F3's. A couple of the C-Plus were Blueberry leaning, purple stems and the greeny purple leaves, but they were exhibiting leaf clawing from too much nitrogen, so I tossed them. I was overcrowded as it was otherwise I would have kept them.
But nice to know that the Blueberry Pheno is still in the F3's.
Lights come on in 20 minutes, I may even take the risk of taking a photo or two.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
This is actually a massive reason I prefer hydro. Control of what is and is not in the root zone, at any given time of the cycle.
out of curiosity do you keep N and K basically equal?
PerfectGrower
Vendor
K around 170-200 in veg and 240-325 in Bloom. Some strains can tolerate over 350 of K in Bloom. Past that you're usually getting into the luxury zone of absorption.
Nitrogen 125-160 (this is assuming 85% of that Nitrogen number is derived from Nitrates).
Each strain and substrate/growing style requires slightly different N:K ratios. Just have to find that sweet spot with a little tinkering
Getting tissue analysis helps too.
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HarvestMoon303
Active member
What? Yes, I know that the one plant was too high in N, and it absolutely affected growth/yield. I binned it at week 5.5, but I have clones that are healthy for next run.
What I was trying to say is that it's the only ovedosed plant. The others are very healthy, and with much less N. They are all about the same size, meaning that the one with too much N is the same size as the others with the right amount (or less) of nutes.
The plant that "overdosed" was a DWC just to try it out. Lesson learned that it's a totally different environment than dirt, F&D, or pro-mix.
PerfectGrower
Vendor
We've never run SAP. We've run 100's of tissue samples.
As long as you can interpret the data and correlate it to better results, that's all that really matters.
SilentFeet
Member
I have never done hydro, partly because I don't know how, but also because I rent, and get inspections now and then by the landlord.
So I think a plant in a pot of soil I can put in a big garbage bad and hide it, whereas if I had plants growing in tables it maybe harder to hide them for the day.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Oh I understood what you said all right.
The excess nitrogen was so much it killed the excessive growth additional nitrogen would cause. So yes, all the plants were the same size. Had you backed off the nitrogen on the overfed plant a bit you would have backed off the 'stunted from extreme nitrogen' and seen the excessive growth from 'too much nitrogen' instead.
