Does a Male or Female Pass On More genetics to Their Offspring?

[Sam_Skunkman]

Kankakee,
Thai is intersexed for the same reason as some of the great traditional sinsemilla landraces grown elsewhere. The reason is pretty simple, if you remove all true male plants, any seeds found are from intersex females with a few male flowers. If they are allowed to pollinate the sinsemilla females grown, there will be a few seeds, if these seeds are used the next year then the incidence of intersex plants will increase in the landrace geanpool.
After centuries of similar cultivation the incidence of intersex plants increases dramatically.
The only way to prevent and reverse this is to have all the growers use a ganja doctor (Poddar) to advise them which plants to kill, all the males, and all the intersexed, this happened in India in West Bengal and other places, read Report of the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission 1893-1895.

I do agree the natural state of Cannabis is Dioecious I studied under Dr Bocsa at Kompolt for several years, he was a master of Cannabis, at least with hemp.

"Plants will go hermaphroditism if they can’t find the same species of plant for natural reproduction this has been proven"

Intersex in Cannabis is inherited from the intersex parents. Not all Cannabis is intersex or can become intersex if it is not pollinated. What is the proof in Cannabis? Do you have a reference that states this?

"The European Union was worried about the entire hemp complex in late 90’ s regarding bottleneck / degradation because of inbreeding and the manipulation that’s engulfed the entire industry away from pure male/ female lines.
The plant production drops 30% once these lines are grown in another ecosystem. A total disaster. Then one wonders why pathogens and disease ravaged a weakened line"

This is true but not from transformed or selfed only plants, this from using monoecious varieties which must be maintained by man or they will revert to Dioecious plants over time. That and monoecious are just not as productive as Dioecious varieties, the reason is that Cannabis is an obligate outcrosser.

" Cloning is not natural and over time the plant degradation is also been proven time and again, the plant starts breaking down on many levels."

I have clones 30 years old that are the same as 30 years ago.
Read:

In Vitro Propagation of Cannabis sativa L. and Evaluation of Regenerated Plants for Genetic Fidelity and Cannabinoids Content for Quality Assurance
April 2016Methods in molecular biology (Clifton, N.J.) 1391:275-288
DOI10.1007/978-1-4939-3332-7_19
In book: Protocols for In Vitro Cultures and Secondary Metabolite Analysis of Aromatic and Medicinal Plants, Second Edition
Hemant LataHemant LataSuman ChandraSuman ChandraIkhlas A. KhanMahmoud A ElsohlyMahmoud A Elsohly


In vitro mass propagation of Cannabis sativa L.: A protocol refinement using novel aromatic cytokinin meta-topolin and the assessment of eco-physiological, biochemical and genetic fidelity of micropropagated plants
February 2016Journal of Applied Research on Medicinal and Aromatic Plants 3(1)
DOI10.1016/j.jarmap.2015.12.001
Hemant LataHemant LataSuman ChandraNatascha TechenNatascha TechenShow all 5 authorsMahmoud A ElsohlyMahmoud A Elsohly



Finally Using STS to transform sexual expression in a female clone is not stressful, regardless how you feel. We were the first to use this method commercially for breeding single cannabinoid varieties, it just is not stressful it does cause inbreeding if you self a single plant but that can be cured in the end of a good breeding program.
-SamS

 

[Kankakee]

Sam please show pictures of your plants grown. And please link to your previous plants grown on icmag so I can judge stress levels throughout its growth cycle. Almost all clone only have lost vigor and effectiveness

And I fully understand about male removal driving hermaphroditism as I stated before you even posted in this thread

And in your original post you said dioecious was not the norm but in the minority. And this is not true with pure hemp lines

And saying sts is not stressfull is not true at all. Your forcing a plant to do something it will not naturally do. Just like trimming roots or water deprivation or other stress inducing triggers just as a plant not finding a related species will induce survival trigger / hermaphroditism

 

[Cvh]

Maybe a bit offtopic but are YY genotype seeds viable? (Seeds made from 2 males).
Sam, have you ever done such experiments?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Kankakee,
I am a lousy photographer, I did not take pictures I did not need them, I wish I did but this was a long time ago, 30 years.
I do only grow in the ground organically in a greenhouse, I suggest you read the Elsohly articles and then comment. Clones are stable and are mostly fucked up by acquiring viruses, avoid them and it is easy to keep clones vigorous.
How many clone have you kept for 25 + years? I kept more then 100. I did not see a loss odf vigor, resistance, or a reduction of cannabinoids or terpenes I had a GC and HPLC lab the whole time.

I did not say dioecious Cannabis was not the norm I said in flowering plants they are not the norm. I added a bit to make it easier to understand, reread.

Have you worked with STS much? It is a great tool that only temporarily alters sex expression in a clone, it does not alter genetics of the plant. Use great elite clones and get great elite progeny.

"Is it possible that killing off of males in a closed environment will actually create this tendency??? Hmmmm so many questions must be considered before making concrete assumptions. Would help explain the hermaphroditism in Thai as man eradicated jungles because of politics and also look at other species around us regarding male dominance"

You did not really say what I clearly stated, in post #41, almost but not really, that and I have said this for several decades after visiting Thailand and W Bengal and elsewhere 40 years ago and formulating my reasons they were high in intersexed plants. Loss of Poddars and growing sinsemilla for centuries.

Maybe we both came to the same conclusions at different times?
-SamS

Sam please show pictures of your plants grown. And please link to your previous plants grown on icmag so I can judge stress levels throughout its growth cycle. Almost all clone only have lost vigor and effectiveness

And I fully understand about male removal driving hermaphroditism as I stated before you even posted in this thread

And in your original post you said dioecious was not the norm but in the minority. And this is not true with pure hemp lines

And saying sts is not stressfull is not true at all. Your forcing a plant to do something it will not naturally do. Just like trimming roots or water deprivation or other stress inducing triggers just as a plant not finding a related species will induce survival trigger / hermaphroditism

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

In some species they are not, in Cannabis they are, or some are,
-SamS

Maybe a bit offtopic but are YY genotype seeds viable? (Seeds made from 2 males).
Sam, have you ever done such experiments?

 

[Kankakee]

Sam, I’ve read most everything but thanks anyways. I’ve been involved with a 14 hectare orchid kubo greenhouse in Europe. Over 100,000 clones per month dropped in the first of five separate climate controlled zones in its eight month stay before sale. The orchid being one of the most difficult plants grown within a greenhouse

I grow stress free canna plants outdoors. But I can only believe so much regarding skill set without pictures. Nothing against you but talk is cheap in Chicago.

I’ll pepper this thread with unstressed plants from seed to chop maxing out genetics

 

[Kankakee]

Someone show me a fifty pack of seed of all males....

 

[Kankakee]

Dioecious plants are not the norm in the flowering plant kingdom, that is what I said. I tried to make it easier for you to understand, not change what I said. No backtracking at all.
If I had said Dioecious Cannabis plants were not the norm you would be correct, but I did not. And yes I hardly took any pictures I am a lousy photographer and I admit it.
That does not mean I did no Cannabis R&D, to most that know me. I can not speak for you.
-SamS


Sam you specifically said dioecious plants are not the norm. So editing and changing post after mine from someone supposedly at the cutting edge of hemp breeding

Is good ole fashion backtracking. As you would have understood all the European hemp that will revert towards dioecious state without mans intervention.

Even an old camera will show if a plant is stressed. So please post some pictures even if not the best quality. Or are you saying you have never taken pictures what so ever ... ???

 

[siftedunity]

DJSHORT
"The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven fruitful."

It's possible there is some truth when working with pure indica/pure sativa crosses or at least pure afghan/ pure thai genetics.

However if anyone has tried Cannacopia genetics (Clone only's crossed with a special Deep CHunk Male) then you might realize how true this statement really could be: "It has been my observation that in a successful cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of aroma and flavour to the prodigy." Having tried a few of the cannacopia xxx X Deep CHunk male crosses, the mother flavour is untouched but only boosted and enhanced in most progeny phenotypes.

hmm dj has some nice hats. not sure about the science behind his breeding ideas though. I don't think its been proven anywhere that a sativa or indica will be dominant over the other. unless one has more dominant genes than the other. seems like a bit of a flimsy statement from him.

 

[frostqueen]

I've been working on a project where I reverse 'The White' and pollinate an 'Obama Kush'... and then I am simultaneously reversing an Obama and pollinating a clone of The White. My expectation is that there will be no noticeable difference in the offspring, but I'm curious enough to give it a try. For science. The results from the cross with The White as the pollinator are really jaw-dropping. Tests pending on the other direction.

I'm not especially interested in male/female breeding anymore. I admire those who have done it over the years, but I've made so many amazing (and stable!) hybrids arise from reversals that I personally won't go back to m/f breeding. That being said, I'm looking mainly for outstanding and freakish individuals to keep as clone-onlys, not creating seed lines.

IMO everyone should strongly consider taking things DJ Short says with a grain of salt. JMO. Have you read his book? The golden rule to remember in science is that correlation ≠ causation. Not sure DJ gets that rule.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Kankakee,
So to be clear you have or do not have Cannabis clones held for 25 years to make your decision that Cannabis clones can't be held for 25 years without loss in vigor, resistance or Cannabinoid and terpene loss in the clones when flowered?

Did you read the papers I posted the titles of? If not then you have not read most everything. I enjoyed them and several others by the same authors. I live for Cannabis research papers, like the recent Ernest Small review paper "Dwarf germplasm: the key to giant Cannabis hempseed and cannabinoid crops"

I am a bio-dynamic, organic in the ground Cannabis grower that knows what Cannabis stress looks like, and the difference between pests and disease damage and stress. I have had the same 1 acre greenhouse for some 30 years, and I plant in the ground for flowering, and for clone maintenance, as well as maintenance in 10 liter pots, and back ups that are invitro and/or in 1 liter pots in cold storage at 4-5C under lights.
I have been working at Cannabis a very long time concentrating on R&D.
To make all male seeds confirm you have a confirmed YY male and cross it with an XX female and you will have them, both Chimera and I have made them. Maybe others? I did not make 50 as I only seeded a very small bud of a transformed male to female to test if it made seeds or not, it did. I have no real use for a YY male, others might.

If you need pictures to believe, then so be it, but that does not mean what I say is not true. Ask people that know me and my work, I barely publish but have been very busy for decades with R&D with Cannabis. My R&D was for in house use, as was my GC-Fid and HPLC lab, it was just used for Cannabis.

There is a reason I sit on several scientific advisory boards of large Cannabis companies, they respect my work even if few photos.

I can lead you to water but`I can't make you drink.
Sincerely,
-SamS

 

[Kankakee]

Sam how do you know what I have

Let’s be real clear on that point

Ya I need pictures boss’ I believe nothing what I hear and half what I see in 2018. I’ve grown your seeds Sam and found no keepers not even close

So you own a greenhouse and have no pictures over 30 years. Wow .... so it’s all been talk ???

And no leading I’m sitting in the water boss’ but a board member without basic knowledge on dioecious in sativa L is laughable all in it self.

A seed collector in the 70’s given table at board with big boys who are being passed at light speed today

who sold feminized haze in first catalog because he never had source plants. More what if’s and talk just talk. Please take pictures when you get home

 

[Cvh]

Sam, would you mind sharing what you used to reverse males?
Not STS I suppose? Etephon?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Correct. There is a thread.... Transformed male to female...
-SamS

Sam, would you mind sharing what you used to reverse males?
Not STS I suppose? Etephon?

 

[Guest]

So ,Dubi has posted this :
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6190548&postcount=26

"The Zamal x Hashplant (reversed) F1 produced a very uniform and early flowering (9 weeks) population, high resin production, compact structure very suitable for indoors, nice solid flowers of medium size with a skunk hashy afghani aroma.

The Hashplant x Zamal (reversed) F1 produced a not so much uniform population with longer flowering time (10-11 weeks), but the vigour, yield, quality of the aromas, potency and complexity are much better in the second case.

Zamal x Hashplant is more like a generic skunky sativa/indica type, still very interesting and enjoyable, more predictable and early flowering, but the fire was in the other one.

Hashplant x Zamal was finally better yielding, with huge voluminous sativa type flowers but hard like an indica. And what is more important, the quality of the flowers is superior: the high is outstanding powerful and complex, far to be generic, with a complex african floral bouquet mixed with the a very refined deep musky afghani aroma that reminds me the best black dominas. "

Pretty sure he's talking about the two same clones reversed.

 

[Cvh]

Thanks, I found the thread

Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking qualities
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=99597

Correct. There is a thread.... Transformed male to female...
-SamS

 

[troutman]

I think it's easier to reverse the sex of a plant under HPS with it's Red Light District spectrum.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have no idea what you have, I did not say I did. I did ask.

I have not sold seeds in years I am retired.

Many did enjoy them and have told me so, I did start the worlds first seed company Sacred Seeds in the mid 70's, others started a decade after me. I can't make you like my work, nor would I try.

I did not take many pictures, just a few like the transformed male to females I posted in this thread.

Ask any friends you have on IC, I did not sell seeds on IC, I never made all females seeds to sell, only used them for breeding single cannabinoid varieties. I suspect the seeds you say were mine may or may not be made by me?
We were the first to using selfing for just CBD, or just CBC, CBG, THCV, CBCV, CBDV, CBGV, and a few others. This was almost two decades ago.

I do not know why you insist I am "without basic knowledge on dioecious in sativa L is laughable all in it self"
I was a close friend of Dr Bocsa, he visited me in Amsterdam at my home and I visited him and stayed in Kompolt many times. We worked closely together for about 5 years and had many many discussions on breeding Cannabis and other Cannabis subjects, I was a guest in his home for many dinners that his wife prepared for us. I respect his work with hemp.

I suspect maybe you have some sort of agenda besides the truth?

"So you own a greenhouse and have no pictures over 30 years. Wow .... so it’s all been talk ???"

I hardly know what to say, I do not even think you believe this yourself.

I am not sure who you mean is being passed at light speed today?

"who sold feminized haze in first catalog because he never had source plants. More what if’s and talk just talk."

I have no idea who first sold feminized Haze all female seeds, I never sold one. You can believe it is all talk, talk, talk. It does not really matter to me.

Who is the Cannabis breeder you respect the most? I know most of them, as I have been in the biz forever.

BTW you might like https://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/iha03104.html
and https://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/iha01215.html an interview we conducted with Dr Bocsa and published in 1994.

Sincerely,
-SamS

Sam how do you know what I have

Let’s be real clear on that point

Ya I need pictures boss’ I believe nothing what I hear and half what I see in 2018. I’ve grown your seeds Sam and found no keepers not even close

So you own a greenhouse and have no pictures over 30 years. Wow .... so it’s all been talk ???

And no leading I’m sitting in the water boss’ but a board member without basic knowledge on dioecious in sativa L is laughable all in it self.

A seed collector in the 70’s given table at board with big boys who are being passed at light speed today

who sold feminized haze in first catalog because he never had source plants. More what if’s and talk just talk. Please take pictures when you get home

 

[Kankakee]

Sam look at your sacred seed catalog and how are those haze seeds offered in 80’s ?? Listed as selfed same reason nobody’s haze line pure today. Funny how every other offering was for reg seeds. And being selfed or shall we say bag seed from random oz we also understand the fact that line only produced 10% quality but the original haze sold was mind melting. And furthermore, we at least have proof Neville’s had true haze because northern lights 5 / Jaze F1’s produced some of they greatest F1’s of all time and even g13 / haze gave soma greatness from one random seed , Super Silver Haze greatness breeds greatness. Not 10% as your line offered and I don’t see greatness from any other haze lines today as everything in Amsterdam became Haze in 90’s like the OG hype of today ... proof is indeed in the seed

Regarding the corporation who you partnered with. The debt laden one. The guy in Oregon is indeed running circles around said company on a small farm with his brother not just talking he producing seed across spectrum cbd cbg cbcv etc and the only person doing so.

Please start taking pictures from seed - finish and post up pictures. With your knowledge they should never show stress as I grow in the elements outside a greenhouse in Midwest United States with all the bugs, weather changes etc ... and still produce A++

No agenda Sam. Just cataloging my hemp line. Maybe I’ll sell you guys in Europe a true hemp line as we know they need it after 60 years of bottlenecking and inbreeding someone should have warned them about lines falling apart in the future because of this.

Sam nobody is doing true breeding today.

 

[Kankakee]

I did start the worlds first seed company Sacred Seeds in the mid 70's, others started a decade after me.

I have no idea who first sold feminized Haze all female seeds, I never sold one.
-SamS

Ut Oh —- clean up in aisle two stat.....


As the sacred seed catalogue list “ Haze “ as selfed offering. So who am I speaking with again ????