Do old/recloned mothers = weaker genetics?

[bozozo]

Late to the game here but I thought I'd chime in.
Me: studied genetics and the molecular biology of plants in grad school and worked in related disciplines for many years.

The plant's genetics aren't going to change in any meaningful way. The phenotype probably will. Variance in phenotype amongst clonal generations can be attributed to variation in the expression of the genes in response to environment or (earlier on, e.g. from seed) age. The genes don't change but which ones are turned on or how much they are turned on changes (many genes are not on/off but more like a volume knob). As a mother ages it is entirely likely (i.e. expected) that the spectrum of regulatory chemicals (hormones, etc.) is going to change over time. When you clone a plant the clone will start out with the same hormonal regime that the mother had. Example: if you are stressing your plant then the clone starts out its life in a state that is meant for dealing with stress, not one that is meant for dealing with being a little girl that wants to grow up. Just like people, plants can have a hard time overcoming a rough start and that roughness can be passed down through the generations and might take a while to work itself out even in otherwise good conditions.

If you want stability across clonal generations then you may have better success if you are very nice to your mothers and if you carefully maintain a stable, non-stressful environment. Careful with nutes, watering, light, don't let them get root-bound, etc.. Even then, some plants may not age gracefully and you will be better off to regularly replace your mothers...other mothers might be stable for years. You have to find what works and then stick to it.

 

[purple_man]

high fambz!!!

in my experience, if you keep the motherplant happy and vigorous in a fitting environement, and respawn the mother once a year or 2, from healthy clonez, there should be no huge changes to the genetical makeup of the pheno you keep.

regarding the genetical drift, if i remember right stems from a SNP mutation during the lifespan of the plant (mitosis mutation, during non regenerative cell multiplication), but is VERY RARE in good environmental conditions.

the real problems of genetical drift start in tissue culture, where somaclonal variations occur much more frequently (especially if working with callus), on the other hand thats how you can create separate lines from the same clone ...

hence, keep your mums healthy n happy, keep pests n disseases away -> many years of fun with ya special lady

blessss

 

[Wendull C.]

 

[OlDirtyHuman]

Hass Avocados have been cloned since 1926.

 

[StankyBeamer]

I ran my headband cut for almost 5 years now, it has only changed when my growing style or environment changes. For instance, switching from soil to coco gave a different bud structure, and switching from reflectors to vert almost completely eliminated it's stretchy quality, but also changed calyx formation. I think the comment about "the strain doesn't change, your appreciation for it does" holds a lot of merit. The 26 y.o. shiva skunk I have is a prime example. Before I grew it I absolutely loved it from my buddies grow. I started running it and felt that it wasn't so great and almost threw it away under suspicion that I was given a wrong cut in a mix up because it totally did not have that amazing old-school skunk flavor I loved so much, so I quit smoking it but kept it growing. After not smoking any at all in three runs, decided to pack one up and, BAM, that raw old-school flavor I love so much about it is just the way I remember it. This is why I am constantly buying buds from my friends that are decent growers and have different gear than me. Not the wisest economical choice since their buds aren't as tasty or potent as mine, but it keeps me perceiving my elites as elite, because I have a basis of comparison.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

I've read originally from an article by shantibaba, and then from several other growers that bringing a plant that's lost vigor outdoors will restore them. Something about being under the sun and getting the full spectrum. I have a couple cuts that I'm testing that theory with this season.

One cut I brought outdoors was my chemd cut, which was showing more of the characteristic variegation than she used to. In the full sun, she grew to have very little of it. Seems that full spectrum natural sunlight has some healing qualities. I'm a believer.

 

[StankyBeamer]

Just be careful with those cuts bringing them inside. I have yet to see a plant outside with zero pests.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

Bugs don't live in my room, they die there.

 

[StankyBeamer]

Insect holocaust!!!! That's what I'm talking 'bout

 

[purple_man]

wot? you separate them borgs by confession??? shame on you bro

anihilation is the way to go, when it comes to pests!!!

blessss

 

[RustyShcklfrd]

Do people still debate this? For real? Poor clones make poor flowers, there is 0% chance "genetic drift" is taking place. Genetic drift is something you talk out when breeding IBLs in say an open pollination situation, and after say ten years and 50000 seeds later (just an example) you start to see that your population as a whole has changed in any number of ways do to the breeding process. There is such thing as "expressive drift" where a clone may not perform as well as the original, but thats not genetic, that can be as simple as cuttings from different, or more vigorous parts of the plant, any number of environmemtal factors, or even pathogens. With all the educated people in the game, i figured this debate would have been done with years ago.

 

[RustyShcklfrd]

Late to the game here but I thought I'd chime in.
Me: studied genetics and the molecular biology of plants in grad school and worked in related disciplines for many years.

The plant's genetics aren't going to change in any meaningful way. The phenotype probably will. Variance in phenotype amongst clonal generations can be attributed to variation in the expression of the genes in response to environment or (earlier on, e.g. from seed) age. The genes don't change but which ones are turned on or how much they are turned on changes (many genes are not on/off but more like a volume knob). As a mother ages it is entirely likely (i.e. expected) that the spectrum of regulatory chemicals (hormones, etc.) is going to change over time. When you clone a plant the clone will start out with the same hormonal regime that the mother had. Example: if you are stressing your plant then the clone starts out its life in a state that is meant for dealing with stress, not one that is meant for dealing with being a little girl that wants to grow up. Just like people, plants can have a hard time overcoming a rough start and that roughness can be passed down through the generations and might take a while to work itself out even in otherwise good conditions.

If you want stability across clonal generations then you may have better success if you are very nice to your mothers and if you carefully maintain a stable, non-stressful environment. Careful with nutes, watering, light, don't let them get root-bound, etc.. Even then, some plants may not age gracefully and you will be better off to regularly replace your mothers...other mothers might be stable for years. You have to find what works and then stick to it.

Didnt mean to step on your post, I guess I passed over at first but your 100% on point. 1 college level biology class would clear this whole debate up if anybody still has questions.

 

[CoCoSativas]

I have heard some people say that they have kept strains alive for over a decade and they start to lose potency, vigor, etc. I have heard other people say that they have kept strains around for that long without any loss of genetic strength.

Does anyone have any personal experience with this?

If genetics lose strength over time, it would be a good idea to breed with valuable, rare strains before they are lost.

I have Ghost cut OG Kush x Fire OG seeds that I gave to a guy that had an old OG that he said used to be the best he has ever come across since OG has been around. He's trying to use my males to renew the genetics but Im wondering if old genetics pass weakened genetics to offspring.

It's a ongoing debate. My ex had a bc cut that was really old pretty pre 90s and it was still deadly. I have never experienced a mother loosing vigor yet because I haven't been cloning long enough.

Reef has the pink kush cut which is over 30 years old.

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

Do people still debate this? For real? Poor clones make poor flowers, there is 0% chance "genetic drift" is taking place. Genetic drift is something you talk out when breeding IBLs in say an open pollination situation, and after say ten years and 50000 seeds later (just an example) you start to see that your population as a whole has changed in any number of ways do to the breeding process. There is such thing as "expressive drift" where a clone may not perform as well as the original, but thats not genetic, that can be as simple as cuttings from different, or more vigorous parts of the plant, any number of environmemtal factors, or even pathogens. With all the educated people in the game, i figured this debate would have been done with years ago.

Stoners....

 

[StankyBeamer]

Monkey paw in michigan still has its vigor. It was a stable seed strain in the 60's and '70s, according to the old heads I knew that smoked her in they're childhoods, at some point a cut was selected and has been tightly held ever since. Still kicks ass, a sativa that hits you like a couple tabs of white fluff. (Disclaimer for the trolls: all my monkeypaw info is word of mouth, I state nothing as fact, the only thing I'm really sure about is that it's a Vietnamese sativa)

 

[CoCoSativas]

Monkey paw in michigan still has its vigor. It was a stable seed strain in the 60's and '70s, according to the old heads I knew that smoked her in they're childhoods, at some point a cut was selected and has been tightly held ever since. Still kicks ass, a sativa that hits you like a couple tabs of white fluff. (Disclaimer for the trolls: all my monkeypaw info is word of mouth, I state nothing as fact, the only thing I'm really sure about is that it's a Vietnamese sativa)

I wish troll disclaimers worked. Throw rocks instead. Tell them their mother is ugly! Hit them with a monkeys paw!

Lol I'm a bit high ya know...

Sounds pretty cool. Wish I could check out this monkey paw. Sounds dope dog