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Do old/recloned mothers = weaker genetics?

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Matt8800

Member
I have heard some people say that they have kept strains alive for over a decade and they start to lose potency, vigor, etc. I have heard other people say that they have kept strains around for that long without any loss of genetic strength.

Does anyone have any personal experience with this?

If genetics lose strength over time, it would be a good idea to breed with valuable, rare strains before they are lost.

I have Ghost cut OG Kush x Fire OG seeds that I gave to a guy that had an old OG that he said used to be the best he has ever come across since OG has been around. He's trying to use my males to renew the genetics but Im wondering if old genetics pass weakened genetics to offspring.
 
Mr. Majestyk

Mr. Majestyk

Member
Yes, one theory is that they become contaminated with some sort of virus. One way to possibly solve this problem is to use tissue culture to isolate the plant cells. This is time consuming, but could be sourced to a professional lab.

Id also like to also mention that people often mention that he cut they have is 'first generation'. Generations imply sex happening, so even if the plant is cloned many times or even reveged, its still the same.
 
B

BadRabbit

Active member
Matt8800 said:
I have heard some people say that they have kept strains alive for over a decade and they start to lose potency, vigor, etc. I have heard other people say that they have kept strains around for that long without any loss of genetic strength.

Does anyone have any personal experience with this?

If genetics lose strength over time, it would be a good idea to breed with valuable, rare strains before they are lost.

I have Ghost cut OG Kush x Fire OG seeds that I gave to a guy that had an old OG that he said used to be the best he has ever come across since OG has been around. He's trying to use my males to renew the genetics but Im wondering if old genetics pass weakened genetics to offspring.
Click to expand...

It's one of the most common debates you read online... I can only say that as someone who clones single phenos of many plants for years at at time (over 8 years on one line), that I've never seen the slightest bit of genetic deterioration. Just the opposite ... I'm always amazed and please how well vegged clones deliver consistent quality time after time. I've heard pretty much all long-term cloner practitioners say the same.

A virus can hit a plant as a 2 week old plant, or a 2 year old X10 clone, age doesn't matter a bit, IME.

I've heard some very smart people say that genetic breakdown is possible ... I accept that, but I would say it's rare, and growers will rarely, if ever, see it happen to long term clones. Just not something you need to worry about.

Mothers ... sometimes genetics aren't breaking down but if you keep a single, hoary old plant running in the same bucket for a year or so, yeh, it can start to look like a trainwreck. .
 
aridbud

aridbud

automeister
ICMag Donor
Veteran
http://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/advanced/topics/PopGenetics/Pages/geneticdrift.aspx

The concept of genetic drift requires pollination and offspring. Clones are not offspring. When people talk about cloning from a clone from a clone, they are referring to "passage". Eventually, after too many passages, a cell line will 'wear out'. I think this is what people might be calling 'genetic drift'.

Quick excerpt from wiki will explain:

In biology, a subculture is a new cell or microbiological culture made by transferring some or all cells from a previous culture to fresh growth medium. This action is called subculturing or passaging the cells. Subculture is used to prolong the life and/or expand the number of cells or microorganisms in the culture.

It is often important to record the approximate number of divisions cells have had in culture by recording the number of passages or subcultures. In the case of plant tissue cells somaclonal variation may arise over long periods in culture.

-wiki
 
I

Imsostonedagain

Member
I guess I can chime in.
I have an afganni that I have had for over 8 years and it has been kept as a mother for over 30 years now. Probably the oldest clone in my area. The guy I got it from ran a hydro store for years and was definitely one of the first around here to save special plants in clone form. When I got it, it had a very lemony taste with a hint of pine. After 8 years of running it, I can rarely taste the pine and the lemon taste just seems to be gone. Yields are also a wee bit smaller than when I first started running her. The potency is still the same, but the flavor as definitely changed/declined. I assume it is from genetic mutation. I am going to try some experiments by putting my mother plants out in the natural sun for a few days as I have learned through reading that some genetic mutations can be "fixed" by exposure to optimal environment. I believe that indoors can work great with many strains but should never be considered optimal. There is just no way that HPS can compare with the big halide in the sky. Will see how it goes.
 
M

Miraculous Meds

Well-known member
The same clone can look different when the environment n grow styles are changed. can it ultimately change the genetics in the plant, idk, probably. Ive got 2 clones going on 10 years old. have had a few friends give them up because they believe the clone has lost its original special qualities, while mine seem to humming along. I don't keep mothers, just clone of a clone, for 10 years, a lot of clone generation down the line now.

I think a lot of it comes down to giving the cutting the right growing conditions to shine. but it wouldn't hurt to make some seeds to have back ups.

My opinion on using a weak clone to breed with after u think it has lost some of its spunk, is like a inbred line. yeah it might show loss of some vigor, but the genetics are still there, n when crossed with a different genetic plant, can usually regain that vigor. So the special qualities of the clone u were hoping to pass on should still have a equal chance to do so, even if the original clone still doesn't have that special skunk smell, or whatever ur hoping to pass on in the next gen. Only way to tell for sure, is make some seeds, grow em out, n test!
 
Dirt Life

Dirt Life

Well-known member
Veteran
IMHE.. "drift" in clones is all environmental. Different mediums, ferts, atmosphere, ect... will cause plants to show.slight to pretty aggressive differences. They revert back to "original" state when returned to "original" environment, which is all relative anyways.
 
M

Matt8800

Member
There is an enzyme that caps chromosomes called telomeres. Every time a cell divides (in most species at least), a little bit of the telomeres wears out. This cap prevents the chromosomes unraveling but when they wear out, the chromosomes can lose information. This is what causes aging and the reason why it is risky for elderly people to have children.

When a plant sexually reproduces, the telomeres is refreshed.

Im wondering if genetic recombination by crossing with new genetics will refresh the desired genetics or if some of that genetic data will still be lost.

interesting side note - there was a woman, Henrietta Lacks, in the 50s that they discovered had telomeres that would not wear out when the cells divided. They didn't age and they don't know if she would have aged. She ended up dying of cancer because the cancer cells didn't die either. Scientists have kept her cells alive to this day with no loss of genetic information.
 
B

BadRabbit

Active member
Imsostonedagain said:
I guess I can chime in.
I have an afganni that I have had for over 8 years and it has been kept as a mother for over 30 years now. Probably the oldest clone in my area. The guy I got it from ran a hydro store for years and was definitely one of the first around here to save special plants in clone form. When I got it, it had a very lemony taste with a hint of pine. After 8 years of running it, I can rarely taste the pine and the lemon taste just seems to be gone. Yields are also a wee bit smaller than when I first started running her. The potency is still the same, but the flavor as definitely changed/declined. I assume it is from genetic mutation. I am going to try some experiments by putting my mother plants out in the natural sun for a few days as I have learned through reading that some genetic mutations can be "fixed" by exposure to optimal environment. I believe that indoors can work great with many strains but should never be considered optimal. There is just no way that HPS can compare with the big halide in the sky. Will see how it goes.
Click to expand...

I had a sensi black domina that I ran for 8 years or more .... my friends became tired of it too, and compared to other smoke that was becoming available from newly opened dispensaries, it didn't seem that special anymore. But my observation was that the plant yielded exactly the same bud that it did when I first grew it ... our tastes and appreciation of it had changed.

Again, I'll hear a lot of people come on threads like this and quote genetics articles, wiki pages and some other grower ... but MOST growers who perpetually clone just roll their eyes and carry on. It may exist, but it rarely if ever manifests for a small time grower and can be safely ignored.
 
B

BadRabbit

Active member
mojave green said:
Well then, these "elite" cuts being passed around oughta be outa juice about now then, huh?
Click to expand...

hahahahahahahaha!

Best comment I've ever read on one of these genetic drift threads ... gee, what happens when dearly-held cannabis myths collide? I sense no cognitive dissonance among the masses ...
 
Scrappy-doo

Scrappy-doo

Well-known member
Veteran
I've read originally from an article by shantibaba, and then from several other growers that bringing a plant that's lost vigor outdoors will restore them. Something about being under the sun and getting the full spectrum. I have a couple cuts that I'm testing that theory with this season.
 
B

BadRabbit

Active member
Scrappy-doo said:
I've read originally from an article by shantibaba, and then from several other growers that bringing a plant that's lost vigor outdoors will restore them. Something about being under the sun and getting the full spectrum. I have a couple cuts that I'm testing that theory with this season.
Click to expand...

I read that too, still on the site probably - I think he was talking about caring for long-term mother plants rather than just a clone cycle thing, not sure, but that's what I recall.
 
W

wkoots

New member
Scrappy-doo said:
I've read originally from an article by shantibaba, and then from several other growers that bringing a plant that's lost vigor outdoors will restore them. Something about being under the sun and getting the full spectrum. I have a couple cuts that I'm testing that theory with this season.
Click to expand...

mis treated moms can get "tired" but letting veg strongly for a summer can help them revive their former glory at least in my limited experience I think it helps restore hormonal balance and out grow deformities
 
Z

zooty

I have some clones that show different levels of variegation each grow... might test the outside theory.

But look at the exodus cheese. The stems have become so weak over time
 
M

Miraculous Meds

Well-known member
zooty said:
I have some clones that show different levels of variegation each grow... might test the outside theory.

But look at the exodus cheese. The stems have become so weak over time
Click to expand...

variegation seems to display at different levels in individual clones of the same genetics. Doesn't seem to effect growth at all imo.

the weak stem growth might relate to how ur growing them. such as light intensity, distance from canopy, vpd, etc... weaker growth happens to me in those situations, n when I correct the environmental problem, u can clearly see the new healthy vigorous growth on top of the old weaker spindly growth.
 
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