Distinguished and Nurtured Kind

[moses wellfleet]

Considering the season, I would say low temps are the problem. In 13 years of cloning I only ever had zero strike on two occasions once was low temps, the other was stagnant/pathogenic water.

If it is low temps, all is not lost provide a heat source from underneath and they may still have a chance!

 

[genetic freaked]

I’m just over here sitting patiently waiting for some pic updates...
I really need to see that Mochi in bloom brother. And maybe the TOPANGA

 

[dank.frank]

These clones will have been in the tray, under the dome for 28 days, come Wednesday. That's insane. (I have to use a dome. Humidity is too low here during the winter. The air gets super dry. They wouldn't even survive a few days without a dome. They'd just go limp.)

I do, however, think about 30+ cuts are rooted, because everything is standing tall and proud and perky and staying green - with 9 really showing great roots. I suspect, in the next couple of days, I'll have enough to get the first light of 16, transplanted and flipped, even if some of those cuts are repeats.

I'll be setting my first round of mothers from the "extra" clones, to make sure I have everything backed up if something truly fire surfaces - and again, I think we are in luck with both London Loud and the Mochiesel. There are plants in each line that have me excited to see what they'll do!

I'm way beyond ready to get some plants flipped.

NOW THEN - IT IS IMPORTANT TO MAKE NOTE OF THIS.

These clones, have been sitting under the HGLED XB200 for the last 10 days or so. I think the higher lighting intensity has contributed to them starting to act right. The light is still a good 3' above the tray of cuts though, as it's still vegging seed plants from which more clones are being taken.

If I had to guess, this first set of 16, will be comprised of 3 different London Loud phenos.

Loud #2 - seems like more of a 50/50 pheno.

Loud #4 seems to lean towards the Cheese more than the others based on the leaf shape and serrations.

Loud #9 though, has me excited. Extremely vigorous plant with a really sharp sour/bleachy smelling stem rub with very expressed zig-zag stems, that I tend to associate with Chem '91 specifically, but the chem lines generically. Hopefully, this will be a sour leaning plant with some beefy skunk yields and a faster flowering time than the ECSD cut.

Loud #9 was the first of the cuts to give roots, in fact, I'll be taking one out of the tray to turn into a mother plant, because it is outgrowing everything else and it's roots are running down the groves in the 1020 tray. At least I know if she's good, she's backed up and will be ready to crank out another round immediately.



dank.Frank

 

[nickman]

Sounds good brother... I can’t wait to see some action over here...!!!...

 

[dank.frank]

REPLIES

REPLIES

@Unclefishsticks - The smaller satchels is really not a bad idea. Good way to keep the product safer and from being contaminated. I agree with taking more than you need. It's a solid rule of thumb!

@Hammerhead - With cloning, I agree things need to be clean / sterile. Your advice is pretty much on par with what Phillthy woud recommend for an aerocloner.

While these have taken forever to root, while under a dome for nearly 28 days, there has been zero trace of mold or mildew or rot/decay around the stems. That's a testament to having seriously sanitized everything prior to use and autoclaving the soil.

@Useless Gardens - I think the issue with MAC1 is she isn't really under direct light. She isn't happy. She's being up potted today to try and get some new fresh healthy root growth. I'll get her under some more intense lighting and see if I can't get her to act right. Think it is due to neglect mostly.

@Unclefishsticks - I've noticed she stacks really tightly as well. Too many nodes is not a bad thing...as long as there is some secondary growth in flower. Thin them out as necessary get some nice branches that fill in well. I'm looking forward to getting her healthy and a round of her flowered out. I was told she vegges weird but normalizes in flower.

@YukonChronic - Thanks for that. I generally look for callous formation along the stem when using hydro for indications of them starting to root. I've never tried transplanting to soil at callous formation, but it makes sense it would work just fine and ensure those you plant were much more likely to develop strong root systems.

Personally, I'd like to take pieces of calloused stems and use them as a short cut for tissue culture experiments.

@Chili_Berkster - I agree. Water temps make all the difference. I typically use the bubble cloner in the summer, as it works better those months.

@ESTERCHASER - there will BE a lot of seed growing taking place in the thread. I'm looking for new, unique keepers, personally. The ingredients in willow that are responsible for assisting rooting is Salicylic acid and Indolebutyric acid. IBA, the same thing in most traditional rooting compounds. Salicylic acid is can be found in aspirin as well, and why people suggest giving it to plants. It triggers an immuno response in plants. My advice, unless you happen to have a bunch of willow tress around, just get a good rooting hormone product.

@TheBlaze - The bubble cloner isn't an option at the moment, unfortunately. Otherwise, that would be the natural go to solution for me.

@Itsmychoice - I think I'll look at the recipes, see what is in them, and see what I have on hand I can use to more or less recreate them, so when I do use a hydro cloner again, I'll have a similar approach aside from using just straight water.

@trichrider - thanks for the recipe. I'm about ready to give these cuts a solution of Fertoz (provides calcium, phosphorous, silica) that was soaked in lemon juice and then diluted with water at about a 20:1 ratio. This in theory should give the roots what they need to explode and help with transplant shock was I start to get them set into the soil bed and under more light.

@Shiskaboy - Well, that's the fun part. NOTHING is happening to them. No stem rot. No falling over or limpness. No heavy yellow. No purpling. Just good looking cuts that simply aren't rooting. Otherwise, they look like they were taken a week ago, not 4wks ago. I'm either not exposing the cambium layer enough, my rooting hormone was trash, temps are too low, or there wasn't enough light.

@genetic freaked - Win some lose some, brother. But hey, you got things going and rooted this last time around it seems. I'm absolutely stoked for you. ECSD x Snow Monkey. You feel me on that one? Or crossed to a male from the SSSDH x GROM/Digi line. Or really, even just the GROM/Digi F2 line, could produce an excellent pollen donor for ECSD. Think results along the same line as the SSSDH cross, in reality.

@Scrappy Doo - The first week, I usually leave all the vents on the dome closed. Then I slowly start to crack them a bit more each day until they are full open. Generally, nothing would shrink back by this point. These cuts, were still shrinking back after 14 days, so I've just left the dome on them, unless lifting the tray every few days to check for roots coming out the bottom of the cell tray insert.

I generally agree 100% with what you are saying about the proper utilization of a dome and easing them into a open air situation. These cuts can take open air now, they all stand tall. Perhaps I should just leave the dome off now and see if that doesn't kick them into gear finally.

@antheis - it really upsets the flow of things. I need to get my clone game on point if I plant to get 5 crop cycles in 2020. It's been about 10 days. Did you take more cuts or go the seed route?

@Cannavore - I'll have to look into the research and some more data before I follow anything. I'll be honest in saying, my distaste for Coots stems from his association to Gascan. I did try that mix at one point along the journey and got disappointing results. Suffice to say I blanked out to the rest of it. I'll have to revisit the data behind the cloning recipe he suggests. It might be too much like homeopathic cloning - for a lack of a better word. We don't want parts per million of these agents. A good rooting hormone is around 3% IBA, so, there is that to consider. But if it works...

@Heady Blunts - I feel you on the water quality issue. If I was a serious hydro grower, I'd be starting with RO and creating a stable base water mineral profile, and then going from there with nutrient solutions and additives. Same as a brewer would do to create a stable water profile for a beer to ensure consistent results from batch to batch.

About the ONLY thing I personally want to see the Mochiesel crossed to is the Forum cut of GSC - AND - to whatever BTY OG s1 I end up keeping around to work with. I think I could sort those seeds for a winner that I'd be truly excited to run each time. Hard to say that at all though, considering I've not seen a single flower from them yet. All speculation at this point. Personally, if I F2 then I have the option to really select something of merit. Preservation for my own personal vault, is the real goal with that pollen though. To unique of a seed line not to. The F2 will open up the possibility of finding so many Cookies type plants. Good times.

@Med_Grower Tom - Thanks for putting the Snype post in the thread for quick access. Your Leda Sour run has me excited to see what shows up. Those should be some extra lemony, faster flowering, sativa style flowers with a sour edge to them. I really think there are some sleeper keepers in that particular seed line.

@moses wellfleet - I think temps are certainly part of it. Really, in part, my room temps were influenced by the temp of the bulbs being ran in flower. CMH does run hotter than these LED panels. Perhaps that decrease in ambient temperature is just as much to blame as is the change in seasons. I know I have a seedling heat mat somewhere.

@Genetic Freaked - nothing really much to take pictures of still. But, we are so very close. A few more of these clones give me some strong roots and it's go time. FINALLY. Sorry for boring you!


I think that gets me caught up and addresses everyone's questions and contributions. to all of you and thank you for all the advice.

I did make a mental note, one thing I used to do when cloning was crush a 325mg pill of acetaminophen, and let that dissolve in the water in which I was initially dipping the cuts in and allowing to sit and stiffen, before really, stripping the outer layer, cutting at 90 degrees, dipping in rooting hormone and sitting in media.

It's really not THAT hard, like Hammerhead said. Normally I'm 100% with him - keep your stuff clean, your environment on point, and you shouldn't have any issues. Like Unclefishsticks said - something changed - identify it and address it.

Sure in this case patience has paid off and we'll get some plant going, but it should have happened 2 months ago. GASP.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

New mother plants for:

LOUD #9, #2, #4 and Mochiesel #9 have been established and transplanted. There are multiple rooted cuts of each of these particular plants. Slowly but surely we are making progress.

Mochiesel #9 - is the most Sour leaning of that line. It's the most likely candidate to receive pollen from Mochiesel male #8, which is the most Cookie leaning in the lot. Seems to make the most sense in terms of preserving the line and not limiting phenotypes in the F2 generation for the vault.

I fully expect this to be a lower yielding plant with micro cookie nug syndrome, that has rank sour funk to it though. I expect pointy, sharp/jagged, sativa looking flowers with hybrid calyxes. That lime green / white sour look to the flowers. I expect Cookies level of frost though. If I had to guess, #9 will be an odd ball expression compared to her siblings. I'm extremely glad she rooted and I'll have a back up mother of her - just in case. She could be a winner worth filling a room of.

The freaky Biker Kush/OG type male, was plant Mochiesel #3.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

12 cut of Loud #6 - this is the one I've have targeted as a high yield pheno. The way it stacks internodes is crazy. It's a 50/50 pheno with a nice cheesy front end and a sour back end. I expect she'll hold commercial value.

12 cuts of Loud #2 - this is another more 50/50 type expression. Great vigor though. She was ready to snip again, so I snipped. I don't care what roots. What goes in next. I need plants to flip.

8 cuts of Chem Sis x Pure Kush - can't hurt to include something familiar in the line up so I have a comparative basis on which to judge these HGLED lights. I'd really love for 4 of these to root so I have a full row. I still view this plant as a potential IC cup entry. There is still time.

8 cuts of Loud #8 - this is the stinkiest - most Cheesy in the bunch. Very little sour to note but she really does just REEK. Throws a 3 finger leaf set and her secondary growth grows a bit closer to the stem than the siblings. She really does just have a rank putrid funk to her. It's classic Cheese smells all the way on this pheno. Maybe just a hit of rotten/sour milk. Hoping at least 4-6 of these root as well. I want to back this one up and give her a solid look in flower.


Another tray of 40. These were dipped in the new CloneX and the new Rapid Rooters are the media. Let's see if we can't get better results this time around - although, I'm not fully convinced rapid rooters are the way to go. I generally keep them too wet I think. I'll have to keep an eye on things.



dank.Frank

 

[sturgeongeneral]

So df, when I was running rapid rooters and rockwool cubes for clones, I always would soak the medium in pH water then put my cut in it and then squeeze the excess water out before dropping in the dome/tray. Then I'd lightly spray the cuts with thrive Alive.Kept just enough moisture in that all I had to do was spray the dome lid itsself. Roots in 7 to 10 for most varieties although I did have a freak glue root in 4

 

[nickman]

Sounds good Frank, hopefully everything pans out for you ...!!!...

These plant descriptions your giving sound real nice ... Your making me even more impatient to see them ... lol... just kidding buddy ...!!!...

 

[dank.frank]

I did pre-soak the whole plug in Thrive Alive B1 and distilled water. Gave them a quick squeeze. I did use a 325mg crushed up aspirin in the water in which the initial cut was placed in to prevent an embolism.

I'll have to keep a spray bottle handy!

There were 5 females in the London Loud. Males were all culled. If #8 and #6 will root, then I'll have them all backed up. With 40 cuts and really a need for what is looking to be about 20 right now, I think I'll be in good shape.

Soil bed will be amended. It'll sit for a couple days while I wait for the rest of these cuts in the 4wk tray to show roots. One set of 16 will be planted under the XB200. They'll veg for a few days until I see the plants set roots into the surrounding soil, which will be obvious by the onset of new green growth at branch apexes and clear meristem rigidity. Once this happens, I can lower the light and get things into flower.

Sometime around the second week when I see how things are behaving and stretch really begins, I'll set in a screen to make sure I don't have too many floppy colas - these are Sour Diesel crosses after all. The flop is a real potential if they get any weight on them.

@Nickman - Imagine how much more frustrating it is to smell these things for months now - and not have them flipped. I should be getting ready to chop the London Loud and I'm still juggling clones and moms and replantings. I guess for my 3rd round in over 5+ years, I should have expected a speed bump after round 1 and 2 went relatively smoothly. I've been drooling over your Sherb Ix x Biker #6 for a couple visits now. How's that one smoke???



dank.Frank

 

[nickman]

Sounds even better lol.,

 

[genetic freaked]

Can’t wait for you to flip these girls man! Going to be a good 2020!!

I have a good feeling about the new run of cuts. Hoping you get 40/40.

Are you not running the ABF gear anymore? That one girl had beautiful color to her.

I’m looking forward to seeing how your second run of the SisxPK go.

 

[ESTERCHASER]

have plenty of two diff willow species, when i harvest the new growth off the willow i know what im getting, when i buy a product off a store shelf im not assurred anything other then i just spent money, as the new green growth on the willows is what youd wanna use

 

[dank.frank]

@Nickman - Right! Let's GOOOOO!

@Genetic Freaked - Honestly, I don't need 40/40. Par for the course, I'll likely end up with WAY more plants than I need. That's better than the current problem. It does present an interesting option though - I might just set up a 315w over the extras. I really do need the weight. I consume a lot more than I realize when making edibles. Those ounces go quick.

@ESTERCHASER - That's great if you have the resource. I'm not knocking the technique. If it's not broken, don't fix it. However, in my case, plenty was broken and the best solution was to buy something I know works. In this case, it was CloneX gel. I'd be interested in seeing analytical test results from a willow water approach, to learn how much of the desired compounds are actually present.

I guess what you are saying, is you don't trust the product manufacturers to actually be consistent with labeling. I suppose, that is a legitimate concern when dealing with things in the cannabis industry, but I don't think it extends to rooting hormones, simply because su/ch is used in general agriculture as well...a company could never get away with it on such a large scale. (insert "TrueTerps" statement here to undermine everything I just wrote - bastards.)



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

And no - I'm not done working with ABF gear at all. I still have both Cobalt Haze mothers. I would be okay with letting the 9wk plant go - except she is my earliest flowering plant at the moment. The 12wk is a true keeper though. She's excellent on every facet. I'll still rotate full lights of that cut, just because. However, she needs to be paired with something else that has a similar flowering time. Having half a room empty for 3wks while she finishes up is ridiculous.

I actually, want to sprout more of Abja's work. I just have to pace myself and work it in to the equation.

I need more space. I knew this would happen!!!



dank.Frank

 

[unclefishstick]

yup,i had to expand my veg space because it wasn't keeping up with the rate it's getting cold enough to fire up more lamps in flower...only going to get one run in at max flower space during free cooling season...it's gotta count since i will need to invest in another couple g's in leds to be ready for summer...

 

[YukonKronic]

Hey Frank I’m starting to really think your clone issue must be low temps.
You stated that your clones look awesome after 4 weeks.. no mould no droop nothing... sounds like cold stasis.

You also mentioned WHY it’s too cold. CMH runs hotter than the LED... that’s the thing that changed in your environment.

When I switched to LED I thought my soil died when it went outside.. it probably did but recovery has been painfully slow.
Then I realized that not only do the LED run cooler but that also gave the room less radiant heating from its surfaces.
As a result the air was stratifying and a cold layer stayed in bottom third of the room.
Two days ago I set up intake air with an upward bend so it comes in at waist height from a vertically oriented duct (points straight up from floor) that keeps cold air from “falling” into the room without being drawn.
Then I set up a fan at floor level to mix the stratified layers.
Now everything is right back on track praying and pumping internodes.

To be clear: temperature readings in my flower boxes hadn’t changed.
What happened was basically constant small drafts cooled the media from the bottom and retarded the vigour of the soil and roots from below. A surface temp reading showed exactly what I set my controls to. But four or five inches down it changed.

I think I recommend checking temps IN your root media? Don’t know if you’ve checked actual media or just the air.
Also maybe an incandescent bulb or something with more infrared will keep your actual cuts warmer with radiant heat a la el Sol.
I believe I read somewhere on icmag that warmer leaves than feet also stimulates rooting.
Hope you get er figured meng. You have some impressive goals to achieve!

 

[YukonKronic]

Figured I would add to previous post with something I realized today.
My mars Hydro light has larger more vigorous and more vertically developed plants.
The HGL seems to be building biomass a little slower but also with tighter nodes and more side growth ie bushy not vertical. They do have thicker stems and the desired zigzagging at apical meristems though.
Also not praying towards the light as much.
My point?
Infrared.
Putting my hand under each light there is a remarkable lack of heat coming from HGL light. MarsHydro ts2000 has definitely been casting more heat onto the leaves as infrared radiation.

The mars Hydro has more “wasted” wavelengths of light imparting energy as radiant heat rather than photosynthesis.
Paradoxically I believe the higher leaf temperature allows greater photosynthetic rates to be achieved at the ideal temperatures of 22-26C
It’s annoying at this point because I also put my smaller plants under HGL expecting faster growth by at least a small margin.
Now MarsHydro is almost ready to screen and all but the most vigorous plants under HGL are a good six inches shorter.

If I turn heat up for HGL the other side will really run away and with even longer internodes.
I can trim back to allow HGL to catch up but I should leave the Crumbled Lime clones I’m comparing yields on.
That will result in a complete cluster fuck as far as keeping my canopy evenly spaced and affect yields on MarsHydro because of extra height on the plant right in the center of the box. Either more LARF on the CL from lack of penetration or her neighbours from shading.
I’m considering just making it all fit my SCROG needs and compare harvest weights to get an idea of which light is better but it’s basically way further from a true side by side and getting closer to comparing individual buds for density size and quality.
Food for thought for those of us playing with the HGL lights.

 

[unclefishstick]

cammie seems to have disappeared from her own site so probably not a worry...

 

[YukonKronic]

cammie seems to have disappeared from her own site so probably not a worry...

Ya honestly I gave up on her after she didn’t answer my last email.. was thinking to try and do it anyway for icmaggers to know a little more about the two lights.
I can already say I would probably just spend my money with MarsHydro. HGL cost is prohibitive and requires your room to be tweaked to it as well as just not out performing ts2000 enough.

I do think it might achieve better growth rates with a little tweaking of environment. But at what cost? The return on investment just isn’t there so far.

I’m just gonna power through this cycle however I decide is best for yields and hash it out with self and probably you and frank etc at Harvest. Might even go ahead and flip ts2000 sooner than HGL.. I don’t really wanna trim 2 meters of scrog by myself in time for proper cure to happen. Especially if I start pulling elbows out of em.. fingers crossed.