Discussion on container size and nute uptake

[blondie]

I have a bit of a different take on up potting, container size and nute uptake. I would like to have a FRIENDLY discussion here. I want to understand the opposing point of view than what I have.@Creeperpark has mentioned to me several times about this. I hope to hear friendly constructive comments here.

So.. my point of view and thought process... It’s a known that plants don’t like wet feet. I think everyone can agree on this. Common wisdom says start in a small pot then when the roots grow into this, put in a larger container. I’ve read this is for moisture control and have not looked much beyond this aspect. I switched to fabric pots some time ago as I wanted to quit fucking around figuring when to water how much. The issue was I still had to up pot until flower time and this was still a headache. I decided to go against traditional thought about up potting and plant right into 5 gallon fabric and see what happened. I started out in peat pellets (also called jiffy pellets I think) and when I saw roots poking out, removed the mesh and put into my giant 5 gallon fabric. This was a week or two old seedlings. Soil was mixed months ahead of time, and was WET. First one I did outside,Ace Malawi. I don’t quite recall I went direct or had a small pot first, but it went into the 5 gallon fabric quickly. It went next to my cucumbers, tomatoes, etc. I put out very late as I didn’t want it to get very tall. My other plants were established and hid Malawi fairly well. This worked perfectly from a grow point of view. The only issue is it didn’t finish quite as well as I hoped. This was a function of a 14 week sativa vs the method of grow, in my opinion. I got a reasonable amount of good bud and called this a success. The root ball was amazing and filled the pot... Next I grew out 4 indicas, outside again the following year. This was an excellent grow. Direct into fabric, same mix, I put out early and was handsomely rewarded with a ton of bud. Root balls were very strong, plants were amazing. Zero nute issues, zero finish issues, this was truly a once and done. One more outside Malawi same method, out a bit earlier is all, it it finished well. Some discoloring of leaves during flower, I suspect aphids had a hand. But the plant finished well and I got a reasonable amount of bud.

My point for all all this is I think nute uptake is a function of root size, not container size. Logically speaking, I do not follow how a small root ball in a small container can take more (or less..) nutes than a small root ball in a large container. I can’t move beyond this thought. No matter available space, the roots are not touching every point in the giant pots. They, the roots, can only absorb what they are in contact with. As long as the soil mix is not HOT, things should grow well. This should be a constant and hold true no matter container size.. if soil is hot, leaves should show nute burn in this way of thinking.

Moisture... I see. You can presumably control available water in a smaller container. Based on this line of thinking, if you can control water and make sure roots were not constantly wet, you could plant direct into a large pot. This is what I’ve worked on and had success doing.

I would debate (not argue) that direct into a large pot eliminates possible root binding, possible root shock from transplanting, The method has worked for me with minimal effort and headache. I’m trying to understand the line of thinking that this won’t work.. I’ve proven it does. There is room for improvement in yield and that is a function of your growing abilities, not this method again in my opinion.

Comments.. let’s keep this civil.

 

[Creeperpark]

I have a bit of a different take on up potting, container size and nute uptake. I would like to have a FRIENDLY discussion here. I want to understand the opposing point of view than what I have.@Creeperpark has mentioned to me several times about this. I hope to hear friendly constructive comments here.

So.. my point of view and thought process... It’s a known that plants don’t like wet feet. I think everyone can agree on this. Common wisdom says start in a small pot then when the roots grow into this, put in a larger container. I’ve read this is for moisture control and have not looked much beyond this aspect. I switched to fabric pots some time ago as I wanted to quit fucking around figuring when to water how much. The issue was I still had to up pot until flower time and this was still a headache. I decided to go against traditional thought about up potting and plant right into 5 gallon fabric and see what happened. I started out in peat pellets (also called jiffy pellets I think) and when I saw roots poking out, removed the mesh and put into my giant 5 gallon fabric. This was a week or two old seedlings. Soil was mixed months ahead of time, and was WET. First one I did outside,Ace Malawi. I don’t quite recall I went direct or had a small pot first, but it went into the 5 gallon fabric quickly. It went next to my cucumbers, tomatoes, etc. I put out very late as I didn’t want it to get very tall. My other plants were established and hid Malawi fairly well. This worked perfectly from a grow point of view. The only issue is it didn’t finish quite as well as I hoped. This was a function of a 14 week sativa vs the method of grow, in my opinion. I got a reasonable amount of good bud and called this a success. The root ball was amazing and filled the pot... Next I grew out 4 indicas, outside again the following year. This was an excellent grow. Direct into fabric, same mix, I put out early and was handsomely rewarded with a ton of bud. Root balls were very strong, plants were amazing. Zero nute issues, zero finish issues, this was truly a once and done. One more outside Malawi same method, out a bit earlier is all, it it finished well. Some discoloring of leaves during flower, I suspect aphids had a hand. But the plant finished well and I got a reasonable amount of bud.

My point for all all this is I think nute uptake is a function of root size, not container size. Logically speaking, I do not follow how a small root ball in a small container can take more (or less..) nutes than a small root ball in a large container. I can’t move beyond this thought. No matter available space, the roots are not touching every point in the giant pots. They, the roots, can only absorb what they are in contact with. As long as the soil mix is not HOT, things should grow well. This should be a constant and hold true no matter container size.. if soil is hot, leaves should show nute burn in this way of thinking.

Moisture... I see. You can presumably control available water in a smaller container. Based on this line of thinking, if you can control water and make sure roots were not constantly wet, you could plant direct into a large pot. This is what I’ve worked on and had success doing.

I would debate (not argue) that direct into a large pot eliminates possible root binding, possible root shock from transplanting, The method has worked for me with minimal effort and headache. I’m trying to understand the line of thinking that this won’t work.. I’ve proven it does. There is room for improvement in yield and that is a function of your growing abilities, not this method again in my opinion.

Comments.. let’s keep this civil.

Friend you can plant a small plant in a 5-gallon container it's ok. If one has experience with watering little plants in large containers then it is much better. That way one doesn't have to up-pot three times. Someone that doesn't have experience watering large 5-gallon containers should start with small containers and up pot until they master water management. Water and nutrient management is a learned skill that one gets from trying different methods.

 

[FletchF.Fletch]

You can make it work either way. Remember, transplanting is the norm in the Nursery World. Little starts get stepped up, no big deal. Transplant shock can easily be minimized. Autos don't like transplanting, so it's often recommended to plant directly in the container in which they'll finish.

No matter what, you have to get the watering right. Too wet or too dry will kill them in Small containers or Large ones.

 

[f-e]

Every Springtime I put cuttings into a pot as big as the UK. I wouldn't want to carry such a pot though. It's also a bit un-level. The higher points drain well and are good. It pools a bit in places though, which is a bit crap. We want that right amount of air at the root, and if we can exchange that air through a wet/dry cycle, that's better still.

By potting up, you can keep the roots contained in a smaller space. Potting up just before they become pot bound, ensures all the pot is full. If you just go big, there is a tendency for the roots to just go downwards. Though they will fill eventually, if they must. In organic soil the plant finds food by growing out for it. So you want some spare space. In hydro, we take the food to the root. It doesn't really need to grow outwards. If it does, the root type can actually indicate what it's looking for. Regardless, in hydro we have no need for a large pot. It's just a container for the roots, while we take their food to them.

When I take cuts, half are going in the bin. Then when I start my plantlets, a third of them are going in the bin. I don't want to use much of a pot at all.

There really is a lot going on. Guided by grow styles. People with beds or bucket systems may have no say in the matter.



A large bag sat above ground isn't likely to get waterlogged. People do this in swamps. There is always a wet zone and a dry zone, so the plant can have roots where in needs them. However there are also zones that are too dry and perhaps too wet, so it's not the most effective use of all the soil put in there. Some is wasted. There must be a better way of doing it.

 

[blondie]

Good stuff. Good info. Good good good. And that’s not just the four gummies I ate a while ago. Or is it.... maybe doesn’t matter!

There is a valid point about a dry zone and wet zone. You may see another post referring to a light mist on top. This helps keep a touch of moisture and is supposed to lessen the dry zone. The dry zone is very minimal and is ultimately used though.

i have removed root balls from these and they are a mass. No loose soil to speak of spilled out. The meaning here is that space and soil was part of the root system. Did it take longer to filll? No idea. This reminds me. The only thing I’m not sure yet is how yields will compare. I would think grown right, could hold its own. I’ve not explored trying to squeeze every gram. I’ve quite enough for myself and a relaxed type of grow. Potential factors in your preferred grow style one may think.

 

[HempKat]

My take is pretty much the same as Creeperpark you can start out in as big a pot as you want but that creates the potential for problems with water management. If you do it right you can avoid those issues but more often then not the people that end up asking for advice and getting help from other growers on this site are new and not good at water management yet, so the advice is to start small and then up pot as needed. Now it sounds like in the scenario you describe you're working with a complete organic mix where all you add is water, so yeah in that case there is no real issue with starting in a big pot if the mix is right. Not everyone grows that way though and so if you grow in a big pot from the beginning and are feed fertilizer from a bottle then you have the added issue of salts building up to a toxic point when the as yet unused soil dries out but when the plant gets bigger the roots will reach into that area where the salts build up and that can lead to a toxicity issue. So for someone using ferts from a bottle starting small and then working your way up as the plant grows is preferred to avoid that issue.

 

[44:86N]

Growth rate of the plant itself is faster when you set-up to larger pots at the right time.

Too long in a small container does the opposite.

You can pot right into finished size, but it will take longer to colonize the soil mass, and growth rate will correspond to that. Once the roots fill out, the growth rate will jump.

I've seen this over and over again with many different types of plants. I have no idea why (though I suspect the roots follow the waterline down more quickly when potting up), that's just what I've observed working in 29 years of professional horticulture. I have tried to cut corners, and quality dropped.

I also, religiously, allow my plants to dry down before watering. I am OCD when it comes to that. Unless a plant specifically requires constant moisture, a complete dry down pulls the roots out, tones them and the plant. A little bit of stress to all living things is good.

"Gardening" is, in many ways, a personal system, and there are, of course, many variables.

If it works for you, that's your system. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[blondie]

Keep comments coming.. every bit of wisdom here is appreciated. I’m enjoying this exchange of info and hope others will benefit. I will say I never mastered the art of watering and this method was In Response to that. I’m thinking somewhat now though that in my case and maybe others, PH is a serious contributing factor to the art of watering correctly. Meaning you may not be over watering, it may be PH or even a combo of.

Another thought... the fabric pots seem to make large container watering with small plants much less susceptible to watering issues. I once saw small fabric pots and thought about using them as intermediary sized containers. But I didn’t want the added effort and didn’t get them.

 

[Three Berries]

For indoor growing I don't like to go big. I have before. planted seed sprouts right into the final pot. At the time it was 2 gallon. Seems to take forever to get established and really take off, much like a transplant. Transplanted a solo cup today and the roots were all at the bottom, not much else.

But my dislike of big containers inside as the time between watering increases and it's hard to address nute issues. With the 2 gallon pots when they were near the end in flower they needed water twice a day unless I let them sit with wet feet and soak up the runoff. Even now with cooler weather and 3.5 gal pots it takes three days to need a watering as cool as it is. The 3.5 gal pots though were a lot less root bound than the 2 gallon ones. The 2 gal the roots were almost a solid mass. So this too makes a difference on the holding capacity as the root mass pushes out air space.

The latest grow I added more perlite to the FFHF soil.

And watering to runoff when inside to maintain the pH for me seems to really show a need for more nutes as what I feel has been a potassium issue once into flower. Will find out for sure this next grow as I'm adding some Sulfate of Potash Magnesia 0-0-22 It's a natural slow release mineral. I also make a liquid concentrate out of this. Takes about a month to dissolve a cup in a gallon of water.

 

[blondie]

The SOP looks like a good product. I’m using this one: https://www.espoma.com/product/potash/ . Easily available locally. A little goes a long way on this.

I’ve tried to get my nutes set to begin with so I wouldn’t need to address anything. So far so good, though there is room for improvements. Good point though. My plants this round were slow to get going, though the outdoor ones seemed to take off nicely. Might be ph, might be infestation or might be the fact it’s indoor, this round.

It it does seem based on the extensive knowledge posted here that while it’s possible this method, it’s potentially slower, not as efficient and possible yield may reflect these ideas. So if you are reading this, keep these points in mind. I’m not yet sure I would consider these ideas absolutes, but for me, these possibles are far less important than a high quality final product. I can say, the one outdoor indica grow I had, nothing was slow, all space was taken, and I had no nute issues. No bugs bothered the girls either which was fortunate. They just grew. This was outdoor though. We will see how this indoor grow does. I’ve sown two more seeds and am thinking what experiment to do. Maybe a side by side large pot vs small up potting. I also am thinking add a bit of peat to my mix, maybe a top dress to keep moisture in. All fun stuff to me.

 

[Switcher56]

Friend you can plant a small plant in a 5-gallon container it's ok. If one has experience with watering little plants in large containers then it is much better. That way one doesn't have to up-pot three times. Someone that doesn't have experience watering large 5-gallon containers should start with small containers and up pot until they master water management. Water and nutrient management is a learned skill that one gets from trying different methods.

^^ what he said ^^

 

[Switcher56]

You can make it work either way. Remember, transplanting is the norm in the Nursery World. Little starts get stepped up, no big deal. Transplant shock can easily be minimized. Autos don't like transplanting, so it's often recommended to plant directly in the container in which they'll finish.

No matter what, you have to get the watering right. Too wet or too dry will kill them in Small containers or Large ones.

The problem with nurseries is that they are in plastic pots, which by design send the roots to the bottom and start circling at the bottom, eventually choking themselves (root bound), and the marketing factor (bigger is better) yeah that's what she said. I haven't used that on in a while

I grow indoors with cloth pots having migrated from the bonsai world with screen pots. I go from 4" sq pots right to 3gal (closer to 5). When you go from a 4" pot to a 3gal pot, you have to train the lateral roots to search for water. This is the advantage of peat, if you know how to water your plants. You never touch the 4" plug for the 1st week or so, only watering the perimeter. Roots will seek the water, and it provides in nature lateral support. Where is the watering taking place in nature? The drip edge. In my set up, which I tweaked to a science for the lack of a better word My roots grow down about an inch a week. That being said, the roots will not go down until they have reached the edge of the pot, see light and the tip dies off, forcing back budding along the roots, whcih are called capillaries, and those suckers is what truly water the tree/plant. Because we are permeating the entire pot, they will seek downward where the water/nutrients are at, and repeat the process.

I measure pot moisture with a moisture meter and weight. Don't take your moisture meter and head to the bottom = a false reading. Your root mass is not there. Roughly speaking at 6 weeks from repot your root zone is roughly 6" from the surface, in my application. So that is what you do. You thumb your MM, and stick it in until your thumb hits the surface.

Proper oxygenation is of utmost importance and hence why we should never water from the bottom. There are exceptions to that rule which we won't get into here. When water travels down your medium, it draws oxygen in = watering from the bottom doesn't.

This what you seek

... a bonsai screen pot. Blue spruce under trg.


... post mortem of the Harlequin and Acapulco Gold in my sig. 1.1g/w

 

[blondie]

That video absolutely mirrors my plants when they are done. The above post is well stated for the method of large pots. One thing.. what do you mean use peat? Your 4 inch plug is mostly peat? I was thinking add peat somehow to the equation but have not exactly figured how best it would be useful.

 

[Creeperpark]

O my gosh, I love Bonsai! Those are very pretty and well grown. I like the one in the middle the most. Thanks for sharing Switcher.

 

[Switcher56]

That video absolutely mirrors my plants when they are done. The above post is well stated for the method of large pots. One thing.. what do you mean use peat? Your 4 inch plug is mostly peat? I was thinking add peat somehow to the equation but have not exactly figured how best it would be useful.

HP Promix is "peat" based (peatmoss) I no longer use the "jiffy pellets" my 4" pots contain the same mix as my 3gal pots. The only thing I do is mix in an extra 25% perlite by volume to the HP Promix, as it provides extra aeration/oxygen to the medium but, most important the CEC of perlite, will absorb moisture (read water) without making it wet. A sodden pot = "trench foot" circa WWI, here your roots rot! In bonsai I use to use Turface with had the capacity of retaining 40 times "its" weight in water. There were other components that made up a "bonsai soil" peat wasn't one of them, because it retains too much moisture, to the untrained individual.

I am glad my local hydro recommended that I start with Promix, the learning curve willbe/is much shallower. I have never looked back, I have mastered its use in "my environment" I, W D D F D D, whereas Water, Dry, Feed. Reading all the problems we read about coco here, I am glad I did and haven't turned back.

 

[blondie]

My supply of coast of Maine has essentially gone away so I’ve been hunting around to try something else. I grabbed happy frog as it was readily available on the shelf locally and I needed something. I have seen mention of promix on other threads but never looked deep into it. I recall one thread saying there are multiple kinds of promix. Do you mind sharing details of your medium and nutes? If I’m lucky I may be able to get setup on this method for one of the seeds that should poke up through the peat pellet any time now.

 

[Switcher56]

My supply of coast of Maine has essentially gone away so I’ve been hunting around to try something else. I grabbed happy frog as it was readily available on the shelf locally and I needed something. I have seen mention of promix on other threads but never looked deep into it. I recall one thread saying there are multiple kinds of promix. Do you mind sharing details of your medium and nutes? If I’m lucky I may be able to get setup on this method for one of the seeds that should poke up through the peat pellet any time now.

I use the type with mychorrizea and it also contains PH buffer. Be careful with Happy frog. From what I have gathered (don't quote me) it tends to be on the hot side. Many mix it with "forest floor", either way, one of them is hot.

without and with mychorrizea Ed Rpsenthal pic

 

[Creeperpark]

HP Promix is "peat" based (peatmoss) I no longer use the "jiffy pellets" my 4" pots contain the same mix as my 3gal pots. The only thing I do is mix in an extra 25% perlite by volume to the HP Promix, as it provides extra aeration/oxygen to the medium but, most important the CEC of perlite, will absorb moisture (read water) without making it wet. A sodden pot = "trench foot" circa WWI, here your roots rot! In bonsai I use to use Turface with had a CEC of retaining 40 times "its" weight in water. There were other components that made up a "bonsai soil" peat wasn't one of them, because it retains too much moisture, to the untrained individual.

I am glad my local hydro recommended that I start with Promix, the learning curve willbe/is much shallower. I have never looked back, I have mastered its use in "my environment" I, W D D F D D, whereas Water, Dry, Feed. Reading all the problems we read about coco here, I am glad I did and haven't turned back.

Perlite is considered inert due to its low CEC (3 meq/100g), neutral pH and EC of nearly zero. The physical properties depend on the particle size; small particles retain more water and less air than large particles. In general, perlite has about 75% total porosity and 30% air filled porosity (both by volume) Google

Definition of inert
lacking the power to move. 2 : very slow to move or act : sluggish. 3 : deficient in active properties especially : lacking a usual or anticipated chemical or biological action. Google

 

[Switcher56]

Perlite is considered inert due to its low CEC (3 meq/100g), neutral pH and EC of nearly zero. The physical properties depend on the particle size; small particles retain more water and less air than large particles. In general, perlite has about 75% total porosity and 30% air filled porosity (both by volume) Google

Definition of inert
lacking the power to move. 2 : very slow to move or act : sluggish. 3 : deficient in active properties especially : lacking a usual or anticipated chemical or biological action. Google

Let's please not try splitting hairs here. I might have used the wrong word to say what I wanted to say (CEC). It serves an important function in the mix. The most important IMHO is to provide aeration to the medium, as peat compacts and will retain a certain amount of moisture, not water. What I mean is... perlite is a slow release vehicle, as are, the other components I mention herein.

There is all sorts of components available to do the job:

• chicken grit which provides space in the medium to allow aeration through the act of watering. but because it is crushed granite, it is impermeable, thus truly inert;
• pumice maintains provides for aeration, it keeps the medium "loose" for the lack of a better word and has great absorption. No I don't have a number off the top of my head;
• turface that one there, the 40% is accurate. I remember that data and the most important... it is/was what I could get locally, often I would have to order ahead of time;
• crushed lava rock, which is basically "glass" and has great porosity by function thousands of tiny air holes that will fill with water, but once again, provides aeration to the medium and releases the water (which we used to called moisture) slowly through osmosis <--- more or less.

With advancing dementia, the result of my previous service. I forgot more than I knew. I hope your brain will remain as clear as crystal until the day of your passing. So cut me some slack, will ya. I tell folks my computer needs a "defrag". All the information is still in there, retrieving it, is the challenge. My "goes into" machine is unaffected. I can still do math in my head faster than folks can process it using a calculator. Why? I don't know, it is what it is.

I concede that you are an intelligent individual and we all have benefited from said knowledge and experience. I have picked up a few tips and tricks from you. Some I agree with, some I don't. If I googled everything before posting, I would be here for over a week (an a exaggeration) but you get my drift. I do concede that I do expect folks to verify information received and not just taking it for granted. One needs to tailor what they do, to their own individual growing environment. Nothing more, nothing less!

You don't need to come across as the smartest kid in class. Be well...

 

[Creeperpark]

You do things a little differently and that's ok friend, please take no offense. When adding perlite to Pro-Mix Hp you lose the water porosity and high-quality performance it offers. The people at Pro-mix are professionals and know what they are doing. They've been doing it for a lot longer than you or me. If you talk to a rep you will hear that leaving the bales the way they're made has always proved the best in any grow. Shoot them an e-mail. Please no disrespect intended.