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DIESEL GENERATOR, (as your primary power source)
- Thread starter I.M. Boggled
- Start date
Then why does the calculator LM linked say it will take a minimum of 1500 2v batteries to last three days?
Explain how your calculations work, and why theirs are wrong, please? I'm confused how this varies so widely.
dankcheefa
New member
well here is how i understand it... 2v batteries hold 1000ah each at full charge. since you can only drain your batteries 50% you can only use 500ah of those 1000ah on the battery. if your trying to power a ten light op that would be 5amps per 1000w (240volt) for 12 hours. so to run 10kw in light for 12 hours you will need 600ah. with 12 2v batteries hooked together in a series that would be 1000ah times 24 volts to make 24000ah. out of that 24000ah you can only use 12000ah before you need to recharge. i'd say with this system you could probably go for 5-7 days of running your stuff without turning the generator on. about the batteries, there a little bigger than most id say maybe 2.5 times heavier than a car battery. the reason there heavier is they have thicker discharge plates inside them. car batteries only need to discharge 6% of their power at a time because theres not much to power and they are constatly charged fro the alteernator.
dankcheefa
New member
the link worked just fine for me....
Can you explain how the DC gets converted back to A/C? More important, how efficient is it and how do you get 240V AC from 2V DC?
10,000 watts/24 volts is 416 amps
So those batteries would need to provide 4,944 amp hours over 12 hours. Your 12 batteries at 500 AH each (keeping at 50%) is 6000 AH, just enough to get through that 12 hour period.
I will admit I am not familiar with AC to DC conversion or DC to AC. I know how AC works and how DC works though. SO I COULD BE WRONG ON MY ABOVE #'S
BUT I DO know a Watt is basically a measure of power or energy. I also know volts x current = watts.
I also know there is no FREE energy. A 20KW generator running 100% is going to produce 60KW over 3 hours. Your 10KW op is going to use that in 6 hours.
I just dont see how converting AC to DC, storing it, then converting it back is going to give you run times of 3-4 days on the batteries.Not to mention loss in conversion, battery drain etc
Not to mention that part of the time, the generator needs to charge the batteries
I cant proof it, and it doesnt sound right to me. But I am always out to learn so if there is something I am missing, please do explain.
dankcheefa
New member
your running your lights off of 240 volt ac from the inverter. the inverter converts dc into ac. when the bank is low on power the inverter tells the generator to turn on to help power the load (ac) and charge the batteries (dc). when the bank has 85% charge the generator shuts off. even if you have to start your generator daily you will run it alot less then you would with out an inverter and batteries.
dankcheefa
New member
if your going off grid you want to be as efficient as possible, running a generator everyday is not very efficient. these inverter systems are very simple, efficient and cheap. they also are hydro electric, solar, and wind turbine ready so expanding isn't alot of money. i think that geothermal power is going to be the next big thing. its quiet, its clean, its cheap as heck to run, and with all the hydro knowledge here im sure it wouldn't be to hard to set up diy.
Was going to write a long post and try to break all of this down with a bunch of math but the bottom line is that a top of the line Rolls Surrette 12VDC battery costs $1500usd and lasts 10 years. You would have to buy about 1,900 of these batteries in order to give you a three day reserve of power for a 12kwgrow not just lights but everything.
DC to AC conversion is NOT perfectly efficient NOTHING IS. figure at least a 10-20%derate factor.
The bottom line is that its really just a dumb idea to try and use these... I understand the idea of wouldn't it be nice to have a warehouse battery bank and one huge generator that I only have to turn on once a day for an hour to recharge all these batteries but realistically your talking spending literally a half a million bucks to support a 20kw grow.
DC to AC conversion is NOT perfectly efficient NOTHING IS. figure at least a 10-20%derate factor.
The bottom line is that its really just a dumb idea to try and use these... I understand the idea of wouldn't it be nice to have a warehouse battery bank and one huge generator that I only have to turn on once a day for an hour to recharge all these batteries but realistically your talking spending literally a half a million bucks to support a 20kw grow.
dankcheefa
New member
the only thing i disagree with you on is one the number of batteries needed... thats crazy to think of 2000 batteries needed. ive explained how to calculate your power needs daily and how to set up a bank that is the right size. its really hard to explain things over the computer, sorry if im not doing the best job of it... im gonna get back to lurking i feel exposed like a vampire in the day light. i saw this thread and i felt i should contribute a little. back to rippin za gong
dankcheefa
dankcheefa
Actually you have not explained yourself. You have not provided any details on the DC to AC conversion. I think it is a fair question. How do you get 240V AC from a 2 V battery (or 24V with batteries in series)?
Ohms law is ohms law. You either need more volts, or more amps to get the wattage needed. I think this is the part you are missing in your calculations.
What you originally implied was that somehow you could get FREE energy by running the generator once every few days. and storing it in the battery banks.
No reason to feel like a vampire, just explain the math, mainly how do you go from 24V DC to 240 AC?
Ohms law is ohms law. You either need more volts, or more amps to get the wattage needed. I think this is the part you are missing in your calculations.
What you originally implied was that somehow you could get FREE energy by running the generator once every few days. and storing it in the battery banks.
No reason to feel like a vampire, just explain the math, mainly how do you go from 24V DC to 240 AC?
dankcheefa
New member
dftsux
dftsux
check out inverters... thats what they do...
dftsux
check out inverters... thats what they do...
I do know what they do, and I went and found some info on conversion. Something you failed to do. Maybe its an honest mistake.
So here you go
http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_solar.html
Your issue is you are calculating 5 amps based on what a 1000W lamp draws on AC. But a 1000W lamp requires around 50 amps DC. Yeah OHMS law, its a bitch bro.
So you need 500 amps of draw per HOUR to run 10K in lights. 6000AH over 12 hours, and your batteries are JUST enough to cover that.
I will admit you dont need as many batteries as was stated. I just quoted pricing off what I found and based on Lazys statement of how many batteries would be required.
But your idea to run a 20KW generator for 2-3 hours, and run the grow for 5-6 days based off some batteries, is way off base
OHMS law, love it, live it, learn it
dankcheefa
New member
you know i must have been a little to high when i suggest this lol.. i agree now that it would make no sense to run a 10kw in light of batteries for 12 hours. im doing a smaller system myself and experimenting with inverters and batteries. the amp hours i need are roughly 800 daily to run my lights. the reason it makes sense for me to run this system is i have two rooms on a flip flop, so instead of using only half the generators power at a time and wet stacking it i can run my generator less and use my power when i need it.
Cool, hope it works for you.
I guess in a small application and to just play around with it, it would be cool. If the generator is over sized, and you dont have enough room to add more lights, it may be an idea
But in reality and the most efficient way to run the genny, is to have it run 24/7 on a flip flop. On a large scale op, space, lights, and generator size would all match up.
Good luck with the grow and let us know how the battery system works out.
I guess in a small application and to just play around with it, it would be cool. If the generator is over sized, and you dont have enough room to add more lights, it may be an idea
But in reality and the most efficient way to run the genny, is to have it run 24/7 on a flip flop. On a large scale op, space, lights, and generator size would all match up.
Good luck with the grow and let us know how the battery system works out.
A
argoagro
This thread is a very good read, not just for op info either. I'm picking up a small diesel genset soon to power my garage on waste oil, plus I have access to uber cheap off-road diesel.
Found some interesting info, NOT what I am getting since I am getting a deal on an 1800rpm genset, but some good info it seems nonetheless. Utterpower.com, 650rpm's:wow:
Found some interesting info, NOT what I am getting since I am getting a deal on an 1800rpm genset, but some good info it seems nonetheless. Utterpower.com, 650rpm's:wow:
Nonphixion
Active member
A Backwoods Home Anthology
BUILDING
How to construct a soundproof generator shed
By H. Skip Thomsen
enerators are notoriously noisy: If quiet-as-possible operation is important to you, then the most important consideration in designing your generator shed will be soundproofing. Probably the best method is to construct a small concrete-block building, insulated on the inside with a sound absorbing rigid foam. If this sounds Eke more work and expense than you had anticipated, or if the aesthetics of a concrete-block building offend your sensibilities, a wooden structure can be made to do nearly as well. In either case, you will have to provide some sort of positive-flow ventilation system to keep the inside temperature of the building at a reasonable level. In addition, you will need to make provisions for and, in some cases, coolant plumbing to get through a wall. The building needs to be large enough for the equipment and for access all the way around it. (It will probably end up about eight-by-eight feet.) Standing head-room would be nice, but it isn’t essential.
Ideally, your generator shed would be located where you cannot hear the engine from anywhere you don’t want to. But there are other considerations as well: the cost of running in the necessary wire from the generator to the points of use of the electricity, and access for installing and servicing the equipment.
If the location of your shed allows it, the doors should be on the side away from the prevailing weather. This is particularly important in snow country, where snow can blow into the doors when open and against them when closed. Your options in constructing a building will depend somewhat on whether you have to deal with a local building inspector. In most cases, a permit is not required if your building is under a certain size—often 100 square feet, in which case an eight-by-eight shed is exempt. If this exemption does not apply to your area, a wooden shelter can be built on “skids” and qualify as a temporary or movable building, thereby side-stepping the hassles of permits.
Railroad ties work well for the foundation of a small building, and they can qualify as “skids” in the process. If you prefer the permanence and durability of concrete and have had no experience in this area, there are several good books available for the novice builder.
In designing your building, you need to consider how the machinery will be moved into the building initially, and out again, if necessary, for repairs. Doors must be designed to accommodate not only the size of the equipment but the equipment and/or persons necessary to move it in and out of the building. Better to have the door opening too big than too small. An easy way to make certain that the opening is big enough is to install two doors that when open, so as to expose most of the wall in which they are installed. One of the doors can then be latched to the floor and/or the top of the door-frame and left closed except for those times when the full opening size is required.
Railroad ties
We built the wooden shed for our CDI diesel generator on a foundation of three railroad ties. The floor consisted of four-inch thick planks, spiked together and onto the ties. (See diagram 1.) From there on up, it was just a standard stud-wall building with a shed roof and double doors on the tall side.
We learned much from this building. We insulated every square inch of the interior with two-inch thick foam, and still, the whole building seemed to emit a low-pitched rumble when the generator was running. The low-frequency vibrations of the machinery telegraphed through the floor into the entire building, and the building itself acted as a large loudspeaker. No amount of insulation would completely silence it. But even with the building set up this way, the noise level was acceptable in 6our particular installation because of the distance between the shed and the house.
An isolation pad
But what if you cannot isolate the shed? Isolate the engine/generator chassis from the walls of the building.How? Mount the equipment on a platform of short ties or concrete, and the building on a perimeter foundation of ties (See diagrams 2 and 3). To make the noise isolation as effective as possible, the equipment and/or pad must not touch the building itself anywhere.The gap between the foundation or building floor and the pad - can be stuffed with appropriate-sized pieces of foam rubber, or covered with a flexible material like inner-tube rubber or heavy-gauge upholstery vinyl. It could also be covered with stapled down bug screen and used as the floor vent for incoming building-ventilation air. More on that later.
Once the floor is built, whether it is a deck of planks or a perimeter of ties, the building itself is most easily constructed with basic frame construction (see diagram 4).
Use rigid foam panels
Studs can be laid out on standard 24” centers, or to accommodate whatever available rigid foam panels you will use. (Fiberglass insulation is not effective as sound insulation.) Full stud-space thickness foam
panels or several thinner panels will do the job. If you use thinner panels, separate them from each other and from the outer wall with thin spacers.
Ventilation is vital
Building ventilation is paramount to insure the health of your generator’s engine. The size and type of engine will determine the amount of ventila- tion required, but just about any engine will eventually overheat in an inadequately-ventilated space. A little experimenting with our CDI diesel generator dictated that a minimum positive airflow of 1000 cubic feet per minute (CFM) was required to maintain a reasonable temperature on a hot day. Squirrel-cage blowers are hard to beat for efficiency, especially where the size of the unit is a consideration. A fan-type exhaust system would require such a large opening in the building that any soundproofing would be rendered ineffective, A squirrel-cage blower is easy to duct and can discharge through an eight-inch stack. The top of the stack should be fitted with an elbow facing away from the prevailing wind to keep out rain and snow. (See diagram 5.) The blower we used in our installation had a 9―” diameter wheel and was belt-driven by a ž (???) HP motor.
Any added dead air space helps when insulating for sound. The innermost foam panels can be installed right across the studs, thereby eliminating their ability to transmit any noise directly to the outer-wall sheathing. Use the same principles on the ceiling, too.
Exhaust pipes
Exhaust pipes get very hot, so it is essential to route the pipe through the wall of your building in such a way that it will maintain a safe distance between the pipe and anything combustible. Make absolutely certain that exhaust pipes are routed well away from any fuel-lines, fuel pumps or fuel storage!
Simply cutting a large enough hole in the building is one solution, but that would effectively sabotage much of your sound-proofing. The answer is to cut a hole that will allow at least six inches of space between the exhaust pipe and any wood. (For- example, a 14” diameter hole for a 2” diameter pipe.) Cut a piece of galvanized sheet metal (or aluminum, if you happen to have any lying around) big enough to cover the hole, then cut a hole in the middle of the sheet-metal about an inch bigger than the exhaust pipe.
With the pipe supported to the wall with an insulated exhaust hanger (auto-supply item), mount the sheet metal to the wall so that the pipe is centered in the hole. Then stuff the gap between the pipe and the hole with fiberglass insulation. If you feel tempted to route the exhaust pipe out through a hole in the floor, consider that the operations which take place in a generator shed often involve spilling or leaking of fuel and/or oil. It is next to impossible to clean flammables off a wooden floor well enough to insure that no serious fire hazard exists.
Coolant plumbing which must be routed out of the shed needs to be isolated from the building only to prevent engine vibration/noise from being transmitted to the building. Simply cut the hole for the plumbing slightly too big and pack the space with a resilient material, such as a short length of foam pipe-insulation.
The cooling blower isn’t going to be very effective without an air inlet that will allow as much air into the building as the blower is pumping out. A simple air inlet is a hole cut in the floor and covered with a taped-down furnace-filter element to keep out dust, bugs and other critters.
An alternative is to use the space between the equipment-mounting pad (if used) and the floor. In either case, the opening must be a minimum of one square foot and there must be an opening of the same size or larger in the perimeter foundation. A hole in the floor works better than a hole in a wall because the ground under the building absorbs much of the noise that would otherwise radiate directly out of the air vent.
A little extra time and effort spent in preparing a home for your permanent generator installation will pay you back generously for years to come. Any mechanical equipment is likely to perform better and longer in a clean, controlled environment, and generators are no exception. And if your generator is your primary power source, as ours was for 10 years, why not have the luxury that it be silent
from your living quarters?
(Parts of this article were excerpted from Mr. Thomsen’s book, More Power to You!, which provides step by-step instructions for building a high-output electrical system powered by a diesel engine. It is available from Backwoods Home Magazine.)
Link1: http://anonym.to?http://ps-survival...onstruct_A_Soundproof_Generator_Shed_2001.pdf
Link2: http://anonym.to?http://www.scribd.com/doc/9721225/how-to-construct-a-soundproof-generator-shed
Link3: http://anonym.to?http://curezone.com/ig/i.asp?i=40431
BUILDING
How to construct a soundproof generator shed
By H. Skip Thomsen
enerators are notoriously noisy: If quiet-as-possible operation is important to you, then the most important consideration in designing your generator shed will be soundproofing. Probably the best method is to construct a small concrete-block building, insulated on the inside with a sound absorbing rigid foam. If this sounds Eke more work and expense than you had anticipated, or if the aesthetics of a concrete-block building offend your sensibilities, a wooden structure can be made to do nearly as well. In either case, you will have to provide some sort of positive-flow ventilation system to keep the inside temperature of the building at a reasonable level. In addition, you will need to make provisions for and, in some cases, coolant plumbing to get through a wall. The building needs to be large enough for the equipment and for access all the way around it. (It will probably end up about eight-by-eight feet.) Standing head-room would be nice, but it isn’t essential.
Ideally, your generator shed would be located where you cannot hear the engine from anywhere you don’t want to. But there are other considerations as well: the cost of running in the necessary wire from the generator to the points of use of the electricity, and access for installing and servicing the equipment.
If the location of your shed allows it, the doors should be on the side away from the prevailing weather. This is particularly important in snow country, where snow can blow into the doors when open and against them when closed. Your options in constructing a building will depend somewhat on whether you have to deal with a local building inspector. In most cases, a permit is not required if your building is under a certain size—often 100 square feet, in which case an eight-by-eight shed is exempt. If this exemption does not apply to your area, a wooden shelter can be built on “skids” and qualify as a temporary or movable building, thereby side-stepping the hassles of permits.
Railroad ties work well for the foundation of a small building, and they can qualify as “skids” in the process. If you prefer the permanence and durability of concrete and have had no experience in this area, there are several good books available for the novice builder.
In designing your building, you need to consider how the machinery will be moved into the building initially, and out again, if necessary, for repairs. Doors must be designed to accommodate not only the size of the equipment but the equipment and/or persons necessary to move it in and out of the building. Better to have the door opening too big than too small. An easy way to make certain that the opening is big enough is to install two doors that when open, so as to expose most of the wall in which they are installed. One of the doors can then be latched to the floor and/or the top of the door-frame and left closed except for those times when the full opening size is required.
Railroad ties
We built the wooden shed for our CDI diesel generator on a foundation of three railroad ties. The floor consisted of four-inch thick planks, spiked together and onto the ties. (See diagram 1.) From there on up, it was just a standard stud-wall building with a shed roof and double doors on the tall side.
We learned much from this building. We insulated every square inch of the interior with two-inch thick foam, and still, the whole building seemed to emit a low-pitched rumble when the generator was running. The low-frequency vibrations of the machinery telegraphed through the floor into the entire building, and the building itself acted as a large loudspeaker. No amount of insulation would completely silence it. But even with the building set up this way, the noise level was acceptable in 6our particular installation because of the distance between the shed and the house.
An isolation pad
But what if you cannot isolate the shed? Isolate the engine/generator chassis from the walls of the building.How? Mount the equipment on a platform of short ties or concrete, and the building on a perimeter foundation of ties (See diagrams 2 and 3). To make the noise isolation as effective as possible, the equipment and/or pad must not touch the building itself anywhere.The gap between the foundation or building floor and the pad - can be stuffed with appropriate-sized pieces of foam rubber, or covered with a flexible material like inner-tube rubber or heavy-gauge upholstery vinyl. It could also be covered with stapled down bug screen and used as the floor vent for incoming building-ventilation air. More on that later.
Once the floor is built, whether it is a deck of planks or a perimeter of ties, the building itself is most easily constructed with basic frame construction (see diagram 4).
Use rigid foam panels
Studs can be laid out on standard 24” centers, or to accommodate whatever available rigid foam panels you will use. (Fiberglass insulation is not effective as sound insulation.) Full stud-space thickness foam
panels or several thinner panels will do the job. If you use thinner panels, separate them from each other and from the outer wall with thin spacers.
Ventilation is vital
Building ventilation is paramount to insure the health of your generator’s engine. The size and type of engine will determine the amount of ventila- tion required, but just about any engine will eventually overheat in an inadequately-ventilated space. A little experimenting with our CDI diesel generator dictated that a minimum positive airflow of 1000 cubic feet per minute (CFM) was required to maintain a reasonable temperature on a hot day. Squirrel-cage blowers are hard to beat for efficiency, especially where the size of the unit is a consideration. A fan-type exhaust system would require such a large opening in the building that any soundproofing would be rendered ineffective, A squirrel-cage blower is easy to duct and can discharge through an eight-inch stack. The top of the stack should be fitted with an elbow facing away from the prevailing wind to keep out rain and snow. (See diagram 5.) The blower we used in our installation had a 9―” diameter wheel and was belt-driven by a ž (???) HP motor.
Any added dead air space helps when insulating for sound. The innermost foam panels can be installed right across the studs, thereby eliminating their ability to transmit any noise directly to the outer-wall sheathing. Use the same principles on the ceiling, too.
Exhaust pipes
Exhaust pipes get very hot, so it is essential to route the pipe through the wall of your building in such a way that it will maintain a safe distance between the pipe and anything combustible. Make absolutely certain that exhaust pipes are routed well away from any fuel-lines, fuel pumps or fuel storage!
Simply cutting a large enough hole in the building is one solution, but that would effectively sabotage much of your sound-proofing. The answer is to cut a hole that will allow at least six inches of space between the exhaust pipe and any wood. (For- example, a 14” diameter hole for a 2” diameter pipe.) Cut a piece of galvanized sheet metal (or aluminum, if you happen to have any lying around) big enough to cover the hole, then cut a hole in the middle of the sheet-metal about an inch bigger than the exhaust pipe.
With the pipe supported to the wall with an insulated exhaust hanger (auto-supply item), mount the sheet metal to the wall so that the pipe is centered in the hole. Then stuff the gap between the pipe and the hole with fiberglass insulation. If you feel tempted to route the exhaust pipe out through a hole in the floor, consider that the operations which take place in a generator shed often involve spilling or leaking of fuel and/or oil. It is next to impossible to clean flammables off a wooden floor well enough to insure that no serious fire hazard exists.
Coolant plumbing which must be routed out of the shed needs to be isolated from the building only to prevent engine vibration/noise from being transmitted to the building. Simply cut the hole for the plumbing slightly too big and pack the space with a resilient material, such as a short length of foam pipe-insulation.
The cooling blower isn’t going to be very effective without an air inlet that will allow as much air into the building as the blower is pumping out. A simple air inlet is a hole cut in the floor and covered with a taped-down furnace-filter element to keep out dust, bugs and other critters.
An alternative is to use the space between the equipment-mounting pad (if used) and the floor. In either case, the opening must be a minimum of one square foot and there must be an opening of the same size or larger in the perimeter foundation. A hole in the floor works better than a hole in a wall because the ground under the building absorbs much of the noise that would otherwise radiate directly out of the air vent.
A little extra time and effort spent in preparing a home for your permanent generator installation will pay you back generously for years to come. Any mechanical equipment is likely to perform better and longer in a clean, controlled environment, and generators are no exception. And if your generator is your primary power source, as ours was for 10 years, why not have the luxury that it be silent
from your living quarters?
(Parts of this article were excerpted from Mr. Thomsen’s book, More Power to You!, which provides step by-step instructions for building a high-output electrical system powered by a diesel engine. It is available from Backwoods Home Magazine.)
Link1: http://anonym.to?http://ps-survival...onstruct_A_Soundproof_Generator_Shed_2001.pdf
Link2: http://anonym.to?http://www.scribd.com/doc/9721225/how-to-construct-a-soundproof-generator-shed
Link3: http://anonym.to?http://curezone.com/ig/i.asp?i=40431
I didn't read everything posted recently, but it would be very inefficient to run a generator, store that power in a battery bank, and then convert that power back in to 240v to run the lights. The extra equipment would also be very costly.
If you are going to run a generator, run it 24 hours a day, have 2 flowering rooms, and shut it down regularly for oil changes. Get a diesel unit made for continuous use and low RPMs.
If you are going to run a generator, run it 24 hours a day, have 2 flowering rooms, and shut it down regularly for oil changes. Get a diesel unit made for continuous use and low RPMs.
Why are you looking at generators for 1000w? Do you not have grid power at your location? Not very practical for 1000w to use a generator. For running extended periods a diesel genset is preferred and I haven't seen any below 4000w. I haven't looked for super small diesel gensets so they could be out there.
Here is a 4000w diesel genset that is super quiet. at 1/2 load it uses .2 gallons per hour. Gonna run you about $1800
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/03924.asp?page=D03924
Here is a 4000w diesel genset that is super quiet. at 1/2 load it uses .2 gallons per hour. Gonna run you about $1800
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/03924.asp?page=D03924
