Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Budley Doright]

Personally I dont think much of defoliating in veg.....


it seems counter productive....


however starting about 2 weeks after the flip.....


that has my interest.....


and of course shouldnt take any time longer......

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

How much longer a veg time did you observe when pruning substantial amounts of leaves on your plants? "wwaaayy" longer is overstating the case, for sure. And if the plants can finish at 4' plus, it can't very well be called banzai, simply because it involves leaf plucking. Or at least, if you choose to call it banzai, maybe the term "defoliation" is OK, too. I remember you were arguing semantics earlier in the thread.

I was using the exact terminology that the person I was addressing used.

wwaaaayy was their word.





There is no denying that it is a bonsai technique, especially if done in veg. It is a technique designed to restrict the growth of plants growing in containers.


bonsai |bänˈsī; ˈbänsī|
noun ( pl. same) (also bonsai tree)
an ornamental tree or shrub grown in a pot and artificially prevented from reaching its normal size.

I never said it is a bonsai plant, I said it is a bonsai technique.
There is no standard for the exact amount of restriction.
A 4' plant could very well be the product of using this bonsai technique.
I never said it resulted in plants the size of typical bonsai trees, I said it is a bonsai technique.

 

[slowandeasy]

I would agree with Head, that if done in Veg it could be considered a Bonsai technique. It most certainly will increase your veg time by a lot. Defoliating in veg is for people with a lack of space or for people who have to keep plants short for an extended period of time.

But you do not have to do it in veg, and if you do not...it should not be considered a Bonsai technique. If done after the stretch your plant will never slow down. In my case they yielded 25% more than usual and were done almost a week sooner than normal. So, more bud in less time. The plants were 4 foot tall and much more dense all the way down, zero waste.

Arguing about extra veg time is a waste of time. I would say more people do not do it in veg anyhow. So claiming it adds extra time is false. Most of the people who do it in veg, are doing it to keep the plant small for a long time. I cannot just top or train my plants for 8 weeks while the other plants finish, and I do not like taking clones in flower.

This is the first time I have defoliated in Veg, and for me it worked perfectly on keeping my plants the right size. If I had 1000 watt lights and 10 foot ceilings I would not bother defoliating in veg ever. Doing it a few times just in flower worked very well for me, and in 6 weeks the plants I defoliated in Veg will be done. I will report the final yield when done. So far they look really nice and I love the size.

 

[mikeross]

I would agree with Head, that if done in Veg it could be considered a Bonsai technique. It most certainly will increase your veg time by a lot. Defoliating in veg is for people with a lack of space or for people who have to keep plants short for an extended period of time.

But you do not have to do it in veg, and if you do not...it should not be considered a Bonsai technique. If done after the stretch your plant will never slow down. In my case they yielded 25% more than usual and were done almost a week sooner than normal. So, more bud in less time. The plants were 4 foot tall and much more dense all the way down, zero waste.

Arguing about extra veg time is a waste of time. I would say more people do not do it in veg anyhow. So claiming it adds extra time is false. Most of the people who do it in veg, are doing it to keep the plant small for a long time. I cannot just top or train my plants for 8 weeks while the other plants finish, and I do not like taking clones in flower.

This is the first time I have defoliated in Veg, and for me it worked perfectly on keeping my plants the right size. If I had 1000 watt lights and 10 foot ceilings I would not bother defoliating in veg ever. Doing it a few times just in flower worked very well for me, and in 6 weeks the plants I defoliated in Veg will be done. I will report the final yield when done. So far they look really nice and I love the size.

In your experience when was the best times to defoliate if only in flower. I did no pruning in veg but did a big clean up at day 21 on some big girls. I was planning to do another at day 45. Should I do it a little sooner since these girls are so big and could probably take the abuse because of their size. I dont think they would even notice.

your guys opinions please. I know for a fact I need to do a second pull just dont know if 45 is a good number for big indica leaning trees.

 

[slowandeasy]

In your experience when was the best times to defoliate if only in flower. I did no pruning in veg but did a big clean up at day 21 on some big girls. I was planning to do another at day 45. Should I do it a little sooner since these girls are so big and could probably take the abuse because of their size. I dont think they would even notice.

your guys opinions please. I know for a fact I need to do a second pull just dont know if 45 is a good number for big indica leaning trees.

I time mine out in between my Kool Bloom slams. But after that, I just pluck as needed. Certain strains grow leaves back faster and bigger...so it will be at your discretion.

 

[JWP]

Bonzai!

 

[And1M]

Here's the first picture of a blackjack plant without defoliating




Now, we removed all fan leaves except the top 3 pairs and the result was this



However, we were unhappy with the final canopy inside the cabinet so we decided to grow a pair and snip another pair on each plant






So, this is the canopy before defoliating





And this is the final result after defoliating




They could probably endure with yet another fan leaf pair removed on each one but, since it's the first time we're doing this, we decided to leave it as is.

Please comment and visit my thread (sig)

 

[redspaghetti]

Before



at 3 weeks of flower

After



note : the after pictures i removed 8 G13 due to nanners.

 

[redspaghetti]

I also dont think this is a bonsai technique, i am a bonsai enthus as well and i have tons of them from 3 - 30 years old.

like HEAD said
bonsai |bänˈsī; ˈbänsī|
noun ( pl. same) (also bonsai tree)
an ornamental tree or shrub grown in a pot and artificially prevented from reaching its normal size.


- i am growing plants but i am not preventing them from reaching their normal size. I am simply exposing the area that could produce buds instead of leaf. i do promote them to get bigger as well and not limited their height. to me this is defoliation, not bonsai, if you are interested in bonsai tech i can show you how it done and how it works with my bonsai garden

cheers,
red.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I also dont think this is a bonsai technique, i am a bonsai enthus as well and i have tons of them from 3 - 30 years old.

like HEAD said
bonsai |bänˈsī; ˈbänsī|
noun ( pl. same) (also bonsai tree)
an ornamental tree or shrub grown in a pot and artificially prevented from reaching its normal size.


- i am growing plants but i am not preventing them from reaching their normal size. I am simply exposing the area that could produce buds instead of leaf. i do promote them to get bigger as well and not limited their height. to me this is defoliation, not bonsai, if you are interested in bonsai tech i can show you how it done and how it works with my bonsai garden

cheers,
red.

So you assert that defoliating them in veg does not make them grow slower and more compact than not defoliating?
Everyone else seems to experience the opposite... including the op.
If you do something slow it down so that it does not reach the size it would have normally reached, then you artificially prevented it from reaching normal size.

I did not say "this is bonsai growing"

I said this is "a bonsai technique"... and it is.

What is so difficult to understand?

 

[VividDane]

So you assert that defoliating them in veg does not make them grow slower and more compact than not defoliating?
Everyone else seems to experience the opposite... including the op.
If you do something slow it down so that it does not reach the size it would have normally reached, then you artificially prevented it from reaching normal size.

I did not say "this is bonsai growing"

I said this is "a bonsai technique"... and it is.

What is so difficult to understand?

Why do you try to define a technique by one of it's several side-affects or similarities?? A technique has to be named by the reason or some main affect for wich it's practiced. Not sought out as pleased, like you have done.

 

[dramamine]

So you assert that defoliating them in veg does not make them grow slower and more compact than not defoliating?
Everyone else seems to experience the opposite... including the op.
If you do something slow it down so that it does not reach the size it would have normally reached, then you artificially prevented it from reaching normal size.

I did not say "this is bonsai growing"

I said this is "a bonsai technique"... and it is.

What is so difficult to understand?

Why put words in Red's mouth just to argue? Red clearly said he was not "preventing" them from their growth potential. In veg, it would simply delay the plant reaching growth potential.

Also, do you sneeringly use the term "bonsai technique" when people top their plants? Probably not, because it's an accepted cannabis technique. I wonder why this particular technique makes you so eager to fight?

 

[redspaghetti]

So you assert that defoliating them in veg does not make them grow slower and more compact than not defoliating?
Everyone else seems to experience the opposite... including the op.
If you do something slow it down so that it does not reach the size it would have normally reached, then you artificially prevented it from reaching normal size.

I did not say "this is bonsai growing"

I said this is "a bonsai technique"... and it is.

What is so difficult to understand?

Sorry English is not my first language so sometime its hard for me to understand the deep meaning of some words...

I understand you said this is not bonsai growing, i understand you said this is a bonsai technique,



It is a bonsai technique to you, but it is not to me. We have different opinions and different views.






cheers,
red.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Sorry English is not my first language so sometime its hard for me to understand the deep meaning of some words...

I understand you said this is not bonsai growing, i understand you said this is a bonsai technique,



It is a bonsai technique to you, but it is not to me. We have different opinions and different views.






cheers,
red.

But definitions are not about views,
and according to the definitions of all the words involved, it most definitely is a bonsai technique.

You can refuse to acknowledge that if you like.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Why put words in Red's mouth just to argue? Red clearly said he was not "preventing" them from their growth potential. In veg, it would simply delay the plant reaching growth potential.

Also, do you sneeringly use the term "bonsai technique" when people top their plants? Probably not, because it's an accepted cannabis technique. I wonder why this particular technique makes you so eager to fight?

You mean
"Why was red putting words in my mouth just to argue?"

Nobody ever said he was preventing them from reaching their growth potential... Though to be fair... If they were growing outdoors in full sunlight, they'd get much much bigger in the same amount of time... So he is preventing them from reaching the size it would normally (naturally) reach.

"normal size" has nothing to do with 'growth potential'.
It is just how big the plant would have gotten if its growth had not been intentionally stunted (as per the OP)


And "sneeringly"??
pfffft
You read emotion into my posts that is simply not there.
I'm not eager to fight, nor am I saying anything any of you should feel all defensive over.

I'm simply calling a thing what it really is.
If you read the pdf, you'll see stunted growth or slowed growth repeatedly touted as one of the purposes for using the technique.

You think 'bonsai technique' is some sort of insult?


No, Of course I do not think all pruning is a bonsai technique... just pruning methods that are recognized as bonsai techniques.

 

[redspaghetti]

But definitions are not about views,
and according to the definitions of all the words involved, it most definitely is a bonsai technique.

You can refuse to acknowledge that if you like.

Definitions according to whom ??

There are millions people that could use this technique and never heard of it or saw it demonstrate on the internet as such, so they call it their own technique, who are you to correct them ??


We're doing this because we love the plants and we want to share the info with the community, thanks k33f! sure it might not work for people due to their growing conditions, sure some will chime in and say this is not defoliation its bonsai ....

we all have positive vibes even when we disagree but i feel a negative vibe from you because you're not happy with the TERM we're using ....

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Definitions according to whom ??

There are millions people that could use this technique and never heard of it or saw it demonstrate on the internet as such, so they call it their own technique, who are you to correct them ??


We're doing this because we love the plants and we want to share the info with the community, thanks k33f! sure it might not work for people due to their growing conditions, sure some will chime in and say this is not defoliation its bonsai ....

we all have positive vibes even when we disagree but i feel a negative vibe from you because you're not happy with the TERM we're using ....

Definitions from the english dictionary.


Whether or not someone is aware of how to properly name something, has no bearing on the veracity of the definition of what would be a proper name.

Calling a technique 'high yield' that actually lowers the yield of some plants or in some situations is inaccurate. Calling a technique that stunts or slows the growth of a container grown plant a bonsai technique is not.

This technique as billed by the thread starter is a bonsai technique.
K33f talks about it stunting and slowing growth repeatedly.
The reasons k33f defoliates in veg are almost identical to the reasons you leaf prune bonsai.

My happiness is irrelevant.

 

[redspaghetti]

^

This is the reason a lot of people would not want to try and get new experiences in life, you just make things too complicated. Leave it as it is, if ya not happy with it.

You might have positive thoughts on this subject but the way you approach is too negative, the term bonsai is broad but it doesnt mean it could be apply anywhere you want it to be.

im done here. cheers,,

 

[Xare]

Zero Veg SOG Clones, thus No Defoil in veg.


This is one week after the day 21 stripping:

Defoliation in place of Lolly pop stripping.

 

[dramamine]

Calling a technique 'high yield' that actually lowers the yield of some plants or in some situations is inaccurate. Calling a technique that stunts or slows the growth of a container grown plant a bonsai technique is not.

So many yield-increasing techniques, if used in excess or at the wrong moment, can do more harm than good. Surely you know that. It doesn't change the validity of it's use or description as a high-yield technique. Success with any technique depends upon the growers proper employment of it. Why do you insist on focusing only on the caveats to defoliation? Sure, it can be harmful. So can supplements, or nutrients or CO2. Yes, yes.....so what are you really arguing? Should this thread come with a warning label? Should they all? Done with this conversation, too...