Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Cojito]

Dude... GPW data from people who are trying this is not too much to ask. No-one is demanding proof... just data that could be easily provided by anyone who is claiming improvement.

that's fair. and while i've used this technique (somewhat sheepishly) for over 30 years (on indoor micro grows only), and believe that it works, i can't give you any data (or pictures even) because i refuse to buy a scale. why? well, as long as the authorities presume (if i'm ever busted) that a scale = dealer, when i'm not a dealer, and dealing = more legal issues, well ...

so, blame the damn government for your lack of data Head lol. but you're NOT out of line for asking.

Also... you are right... I'm not challenging the technique, but I am challenging the way it is billed and presented.

For example: I can completely support my position that it is a modified bonsai technique, even using your own posts to do so... and I can completely support my position that anyone removing less that 100% of the leaves from their plant has not actually defoliated their plant, they have just pruned some of the leaves back.

fair point. when i think defoliation i think Agent Orange. but then, i grew up during the '70's. you're right, some leaves always remain, so pruning is a more accurate term. but dude, defoliation sounds so much cooler don't ya think? pruning just sounds so effete. and the meanings of words can change. for example, gay doesn't necessarily mean homosexual anymore.

you know, i'm not put off by the bickering. not at all. i keep coming back to this thread because i don't really understand why this technique works, or just how well it does work. i only know i felt good enough about it at the time to keep doing it. so i'm thankful for people like you Head. because you're willing to be all logical and sciencey. you cut through the hyperbole and bullshit to get at the why and how.

 

[Blueshark]

The beautiful thing about this, and other, forums is that ideas are floated out there for our community. What works for one may, indeed, not work for another. The variables are to many to fathom... My advise is to try it if this method interests you, or not if you think it is all BS. Getting into squabbles wastes ALL of our time. I think we are all better than that. That said, I have learned so much by reading what others have done before that I will keep reading and trying new things. We all want better quality (and/or quantity) with less work. That increases profit/yield...and I'm all for that

 

[NiKEUS-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytecBWwdVis
I'm just trying to find if there is an update from that fella.

 

[slowandeasy]

Ok, Head....just for you brother. The numbers are in and I am super stoked! A little history for you first. The tent that they are in has been ran 6 times. 2.7x 2.7 foot tent with the same 3 strains. Querkle, Space Dawg, and Grapefruit. Average yield 8 oz, but the Space Dawg yields best and Querkle is the poorest yielder.

I started defoliating in flower, about 3 to 4 weeks after the flip. Nothing in veg. The buds were visibly larger, and had zero waste. Here are the numbers.

Space Dawg 1: 110.4g
Space Dawg 2: 65.8
Querkle : 63.4
Grapefruit : 92.4

Total: 331.0 g

So, there you have it that comes out to 11.82 oz. in a small tent. That is about a 25% increase in yield. This was in 1 gallon Smart Pots. My one plant alone was over 4 oz. I have never heard of that big of a yield in a 1 gal pot. Not an easy thing to accomplish in such a small container.

Well there you have it, told you my scale did not lie! I apologize for bickering with you, but I had to prove my point. I am passionate about my hobby. I hope you can see that I am not making shit up, and everything I told you was the truth about knowing I had more by just looking at it.

Any questions or comments are welcome. And for the other people who chime in with negative things to say. I told you so!

 

[Japanfreakier]

Congrats on the successful yield

 

[slowandeasy]

Congrats on the successful yield

Thank you very much! I am very pleased!!!

 

[150wclub]

Ok, Head....just for you brother. The numbers are in and I am super stoked! A little history for you first. The tent that they are in has been ran 6 times. 2.7x 2.7 foot tent with the same 3 strains. Querkle, Space Dawg, and Grapefruit. Average yield 8 oz, but the Space Dawg yields best and Querkle is the poorest yielder.

I started defoliating in flower, about 3 to 4 weeks after the flip. Nothing in veg. The buds were visibly larger, and had zero waste. Here are the numbers.

Space Dawg 1: 110.4g
Space Dawg 2: 65.8
Querkle : 63.4
Grapefruit : 92.4

Total: 331.0 g

So, there you have it that comes out to 11.82 oz. in a small tent. That is about a 25% increase in yield. This was in 1 gallon Smart Pots. My one plant alone was over 4 oz. I have never heard of that big of a yield in a 1 gal pot. Not an easy thing to accomplish in such a small container.

Well there you have it, told you my scale did not lie! I apologize for bickering with you, but I had to prove my point. I am passionate about my hobby. I hope you can see that I am not making shit up, and everything I told you was the truth about knowing I had more by just looking at it.

Any questions or comments are welcome. And for the other people who chime in with negative things to say. I told you so!

Grats on the harvest man
can you post pictures if possible?

EDIT:
i'm at day 16 of flowering, i removed some stem leafs from the bottom of my girls. i was suppose to deffoliate at day 21 like delta and jsorek but i'm not sure if its to soon and will stress the plant out. should i go ahead and defoliate as planned on day 21 or should i wait since i removed some fan leaves on the bottom prematurely.

Thanks.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I would be very impressed by someone taking on an experiment of that magnitude for the betterment of the community.

That's a noble offer but this is the kind of side by side that is not going to show much. Assuming all 5 plants are say, 12", and have not yet had any "leaf pruning"

If you defoliate only one, that one needs an extra week in veg or more to grow branches and sites before flip. In my case I have already defoliated twice by now. So I am not sure how you want to set this kind of thing up. If we use one of my prepped plants that is 12" it already has twice the branching or more than say a fresh bolting clone with all the leaf. I am ignoring timeline up to this point but the prepped pant is a couple of weeks older.

You can see what I am talking about as to controls.

Let's take another scenario all equal plants. If you prune one at flip the rest are going to bolt and shade it out if they are in the same confined space. If the pruned one is given the luxury of unrestricted light it still may underperform. This is 2 completely different ways of growing. I never defoliate right at flip and never start with a single stalk starter. Mine are well branched but still under a foot in height. If you have designed the grow to accommodate the spacing of 5 leafy plants it may fit 7 or 8 defoliated ones. So in that scenario it is unfair to defoliate one and not give it a sister or two to accompany it. Defoliating allows you to crowd and intertwine to increase productive site density in a given volume of grow space. A single plant does not necessarily produce that kind of density or sites per cubic foot. But when crowded enough, defoliated and trained you have effectively doubled perhaps the site density in that volume.

Rather a side by side in separate tents with completely separate management and you will get a better representaion.

Let's try to cool the personal attacks and assumptive rage. There are others like the recent poster above who is participating and posting results and is getting drowned out by the scrapping.

Head, I am not really sure where you stand in this. you have softened the tone and have acknowledged the technique as valid but are you afraid to try it and why. I assume you are an experienced grower so I would also assume some confidence with experimentation. After all, this whole endeavor of home agriculture is one huge experiment. Unless your grow came with a set of plans, you've had to trial and error your way through alot more than this if you have a few years under your belt.

So try a few in veg so you can at least see the response to the light. I sometimes strip a 8" plant, it's second stripping by then, and completely kink the mainstem and bend it to the surface...flat, splat, as if it was stepped on. That will really get you over any fears of handling and stripping. Now what you get from there is some agressive branching and more leaf than you can imagine in a week to 10 days. From there you have a far more branched starter than just allowing them to run up straight. I'm shooting for at least 8 strong branches to build on.

 

[Mental_Mel]

25% increase in yield.

Well done on the good harvest slowandeasy. I hope to be able to replicate your results. 25% Now that is a sensational claim if ever i saw one. Some real tangible evidence is required now.

You guys make me want to take 5 clones of the exact same strain all equally sized and healthy. Plant them all in the same exact soil mix in the same sized pots.

1. would be standard untouched plant.
2. would be left untouched until flower then defoliated vigorously.
3. would be defoliated through-out veg & flower in stages.
4. would get vigourously defoliated once during veg once during flower
5. would be defoliated in mid bloom and again during the ripening period.

All grown under a individual 400w light same hood ballast and bulbs in the same room with a stable climate. Find out what performs best.

2 runs one for an indica dom strain and another for sativa dom strain.....

Until next time be safe and take care!

k33ftr33z is not up to the the challenge which is strange but blazeoneup is! All hail blazeoneup

All hail the neutral independent third party

Well said blazeoneup you are the man K+++

Until this time though, in my mind its;

 

[Slow Stone]

Total: 331.0 g

Sorry to ask, but what's your g/w? Now and before. Thank you.

p.s. i coul do calculations myself, but don't know how many watts you are runnig.

 

[DHF]

I`m tellin all of yas that I ran Chem D MANY cycles before gettin talked into the "strippin technique" by Jro back when I had some respect for him.........

12 weeks for a 10 week cycle for the same size nugz , same weight finished , but less trimmin doesn`t prove cost effective when you could`ve pulled the leafier plants and re-introduced the next run of pre-vegged cuts 2 weeks earlier........

This shit may work for some that don`t have anything other than someone else`s accounts of how miraculous this technique is and it may work on some strains/varieties as stated here IDK......no offense....but.........

I`m testifying from personal experience that it did not work on Chem D , but rather was detrimental to the finishing process from plant stress and recovery time to accomplish the same size end product I was accustomed to producing run after run.........

It`s not rocket science.......Dial a strain where you can`t squeeze another gram out of her , and then strip all her shit off of her next run and see how long it takes her to recover and give yas the same weight and size nug harvey as last run......you won`t be happy..........

Said this earlier.......supposedly this technique works good on SOG tables to prevent each cut from chokin out the next plant beside , in front , and behind.......the original technique was designed to be able to squeeze mega cuts and plant numbers under the same sq ftg/footprint of horizontal air-cooled reflectors using way more than the customary max number of 4 plants per sq ft on 4 x 8 tables.........instead of 128 plants they were doubling that and then some.........

Worked well for straight rooted cuts flipped to 12/12 usin his BOG/Beaster cut.......anything else with older/bigger plants is a crap shoot at best IME.......didn`t work for me and he didn`t like me shittin in his kool-aid when I told him bout it either......might work ok for usin less than 50 watts per sq ft with folks that`re new and don`t realize about canopy penetration cuz they certainly wouldn`t know about plant stress/shock and recovery time.....

Proof`s in the puddin........don`t just accept somethin works cuz it`s hyped and stickied.....do your own experiments as Blaze said.........growing smaller plants allows this setup to do better with the lower extremities instead of being trimmed out for the upper and outer cola development.......that`s about it from what I`ve seen.........

Instead of popcorn down low , the light penetration from fan removals allowed extra fully developed nugz that normally would`ve been chopped out for the upper canopy development.......SOG folks loved the system........

Don`t try and fuck with bigger plants without expecting to wait awhile as they recover and get back to where they were before being put in plant shock/stress to the max by being raped of their photosynthesis receptors and having to reproduce more for the recovery process........Witnessed it first hand in several rooms ........

Peace.....DHF........

 

[huntingbb]

Comments inline:

I`m tellin all of yas that I ran Chem D MANY cycles before gettin talked into the "strippin technique" by Jro back when I had some respect for him.........
right - so youve a good amount of experience;
12 weeks for a 10 week cycle for the same size nugz , same weight finished , but less trimmin doesn`t prove cost effective when you could`ve pulled the leafier plants and re-introduced the next run of pre-vegged cuts 2 weeks earlier........
concrete #'s for a strain;
This shit may work for some that don`t have anything other than someone else`s accounts of how miraculous this technique is and it may work on some strains/varieties as stated here IDK......no offense....but.........
it doesnt work for this strain for u for sure, maybe for no one... you allow for the POSSIBILITY it seems;
I`m testifying from personal experience that it did not work on Chem D , but rather was detrimental to the finishing process from plant stress and recovery time to accomplish the same size end product I was accustomed to producing run after run.........
*nodding*
It`s not rocket science.......Dial a strain where you can`t squeeze another gram out of her , and then strip all her shit off of her next run and see how long it takes her to recover and give yas the same weight and size nug harvey as last run......you won`t be happy..........
Excellent advice procedurally speaking;
Said this earlier.......supposedly this technique works good on SOG tables to prevent each cut from chokin out the next plant beside , in front , and behind.......the original technique was designed to be able to squeeze mega cuts and plant numbers under the same sq ftg/footprint of horizontal air-cooled reflectors using way more than the customary max number of 4 plants per sq ft on 4 x 8 tables.........instead of 128 plants they were doubling that and then some.........

Worked well for straight rooted cuts flipped to 12/12 usin his BOG/Beaster cut.......anything else with older/bigger plants is a crap shoot at best IME.......didn`t work for me and he didn`t like me shittin in his kool-aid when I told him bout it either......might work ok for usin less than 50 watts per sq ft with folks that`re new and don`t realize about canopy penetration , cuz they certainly wouldn`t know about plant stress/shock and recovery time.....

Proof`s in the puddin........don`t just accept somethin works cuz it`s hyped and stickied.....do your own experiments as Blaze said.........growing smaller plants allows this setup to do better with the lower extremities instead of being trimmed out for the upper and outer cola development.......that`s about it from what I`ve seen.........

Instead of popcorn down low , the light penetration from fan removals allowed extra fully developed nugz that normally would`ve been chopped out for the upper canopy development.......SOG folks loved the system........

Don`t try and fuck with bigger plants without expecting to wait awhile as they recover and get back to where they were before being put in plant shock/stress to the max by being raped of their photosynthesis receptors and having to reproduce more for the recovery process........Witnessed it first hand in several rooms ........

Peace.....DHF........

Nice! Sound advice from someone who's careful not just 'fucking around'. Good to know, anyone else had similar results for this particular strain?
DHF, what seed co if we might ask - specific genetics? Eventually we might get a nice list going

 

[slowandeasy]

I`m tellin all of yas that I ran Chem D MANY cycles before gettin talked into the "strippin technique" by Jro back when I had some respect for him.........

12 weeks for a 10 week cycle for the same size nugz , same weight finished , but less trimmin doesn`t prove cost effective when you could`ve pulled the leafier plants and re-introduced the next run of pre-vegged cuts 2 weeks earlier........

This shit may work for some that don`t have anything other than someone else`s accounts of how miraculous this technique is and it may work on some strains/varieties as stated here IDK......no offense....but.........

I`m testifying from personal experience that it did not work on Chem D , but rather was detrimental to the finishing process from plant stress and recovery time to accomplish the same size end product I was accustomed to producing run after run.........

It`s not rocket science.......Dial a strain where you can`t squeeze another gram out of her , and then strip all her shit off of her next run and see how long it takes her to recover and give yas the same weight and size nug harvey as last run......you won`t be happy..........

Said this earlier.......supposedly this technique works good on SOG tables to prevent each cut from chokin out the next plant beside , in front , and behind.......the original technique was designed to be able to squeeze mega cuts and plant numbers under the same sq ftg/footprint of horizontal air-cooled reflectors using way more than the customary max number of 4 plants per sq ft on 4 x 8 tables.........instead of 128 plants they were doubling that and then some.........

Worked well for straight rooted cuts flipped to 12/12 usin his BOG/Beaster cut.......anything else with older/bigger plants is a crap shoot at best IME.......didn`t work for me and he didn`t like me shittin in his kool-aid when I told him bout it either......might work ok for usin less than 50 watts per sq ft with folks that`re new and don`t realize about canopy penetration , cuz they certainly wouldn`t know about plant stress/shock and recovery time.....

Proof`s in the puddin........don`t just accept somethin works cuz it`s hyped and stickied.....do your own experiments as Blaze said.........growing smaller plants allows this setup to do better with the lower extremities instead of being trimmed out for the upper and outer cola development.......that`s about it from what I`ve seen.........

Instead of popcorn down low , the light penetration from fan removals allowed extra fully developed nugz that normally would`ve been chopped out for the upper canopy development.......SOG folks loved the system........

Don`t try and fuck with bigger plants without expecting to wait awhile as they recover and get back to where they were before being put in plant shock/stress to the max by being raped of their photosynthesis receptors and having to reproduce more for the recovery process........Witnessed it first hand in several rooms ........

Peace.....DHF........

Just because it did not work for you, does not mean it does not work. I am sure certain strains respond differently, but that goes for any management technique. I personally know my stains like the back of my hand, so experimenting to increase yield does not bother me. I know how they grow at every stage.

I have another small tent that I have been defoliating since veg. They were flipped a week ago, and are doing great. By far the shortest plants I have ever had at this stage. But they also have a shit ton of bud sites, way more than usual. I will see in 7 more weeks how that experiment turns out.

I can say for sure that defoliating in veg will take your vertical growth and make it come to a screaching halt. It then begins to just bush out and make super tight nodes. Yes it will take extra veg time, but for my situation it will work out perfect as I have to keep plants around til the next harvest. No way in hell I could keep my plants manageable for that long without some type training.

When you defoliate it is like shaving your chest hair. When you are done it looks really weird, but it grows back twice as thick! I can say without a doubt defoliating helped my last round. It also helped me manage my small tent plants...but I cannot comment on the yield until harvest. I will admit by defoliating in veg, it is going to take a few runs to figure out the correct height I want.

If you do not believe in it or whatever, dont do it. It is that simple. But to say it does not work is bunk. Maybe it works better for some than others. Maybe the people it works for have a Greener Thumb than yourself? You cannot just pluck a shit ton of leaves and expect results. Tons of other variables play into anybodys final yield. My set up grows plants extremely fast, and I bet that helps a ton.

BTW, I would never defoliate during or within a few days of the first 2 weeks of flower. That is a stressful time as is. If you wait until after the stretch is done and they are used to everything they should do much better. Of course doing anything extreme to plants can be stressful, I suggest starting off slow. See how your plants respond, dont just strip chicken everything off the first time. Oh yeah, for me...my plants finished earlier...but they were never stressed at all. Stunt any plant and it will take longer.

 

[DHF]

Slow and easy.....as I said earlier and plainly stated it appears to work with certain strains/varieties with large plant numbers with faster finishing times according to Jro........

That`s all I`m saying.......Plant stress/shock and recovery time from strippin leaves costs money growing bigger plants than runnin budsicles side by side .........but.......

Mega cut SOG setups with no veg rule in the yield and crops per yr category period............Got Growbro`s on the left coast that sell cuts to the clubs doin mega lbs per light with dialed strains WITHOUT leaf stripping using outrageous plant numbers straight from rooted cut and flipped in flood tables under 2 1k`s on 4 x 8`s............

My Chem D plants were clone only.........no seeds involved....No bullshit over here.........just honesty with knowledge and experience...........

Peace.......DHF........

 

[huntingbb]

Slow and easy.....as I said earlier and plainly stated it works with certain strains/varieties with large plant numbers with faster finishing times........

That`s all I`m saying.......Plant stress/shock and recovery time from strippin leaves costs money growing bigger plants than runnin budsicles side by side .........but.......

Mega cut SOG setups rule.........Got growbro`s on the left coast that sell cuts to the clubs doin mega lbs per light with dialed strains WITHOUT leaf stripping using outrageous plant numbers in flood tables under 2 1k`s on 4 x 8`s............

My Chem D plants were clone only.........no seeds involved....No bullshit over here.........just honesty with knowledge and experience...........

Peace.......DHF........

+K

 

[guestaweed]

is there any risk turning hermies usingt these technique?
can you start this when the plant is in say 40 sh day flwr?
thanks

 

[slowandeasy]

Slow and easy.....as I said earlier and plainly stated it appears to work with certain strains/varieties with large plant numbers with faster finishing times according to Jro........

That`s all I`m saying.......Plant stress/shock and recovery time from strippin leaves costs money growing bigger plants than runnin budsicles side by side .........but.......

Mega cut SOG setups with no veg rule in the yield and crops per yr category period............Got Growbro`s on the left coast that sell cuts to the clubs doin mega lbs per light with dialed strains WITHOUT leaf stripping using outrageous plant numbers straight from rooted cut and flipped in flood tables under 2 1k`s on 4 x 8`s............

My Chem D plants were clone only.........no seeds involved....No bullshit over here.........just honesty with knowledge and experience...........

Peace.......DHF........

Dude if you have a couple of 1000 watt lights, of course they are going to produce more than a little 400 watt light...no matter what method you use. If I had that set up, I prolly would not defoliate either. Personally I think this method benefits the people using less watts and tighter spaces. Common sense says if you have 1000 watt lights they are going to penetrate a lot further than smaller lights.

I appreciate your input, and agree that certain strains may do better. Anytime you stress or shock a plant it is going to take time to recover. This is why I suggest starting off slow. Not ragging on you or your friends, if it did not help you or them...dont do it. Thanks for sharing your experiences!

 

[k33ftr33z]

k33ftr33z is not up to the the challenge which is strange but blazeoneup is! All hail blazeoneup

Never said that, Mel.

I was defining the test. As I have repeated endlessly this technique is about managing an area like say, 25 sq ft. Not one plant in a group of 5 in the same tent or closet. I am perfectly willing to put this technique to test on those terms. I've already done it several times and so have the several posters participating. Again, it isn't side by side because most of us don't have the space for it, and if you progress to a technique that increases yield it is very hard to go back. That doesn't mean that you have suddenly forgotten what you yielded back in the leafy days, as you all seem to imply. I remember and and that is a comparison just as valid as side by side. The conditions have consistent for years.

I welcome anyone to post a similar size leafy plant to this and state it's yield. This plant is 32" footprint, 12 oz. under 30" tall. It's share of wattage is about 265w:340g=1.28gpw This plant would be lucky to attain a half pound if left to it's leafy ways. I know because I have done it.

Anyway I may be checking out. I have too much work to do for this kind of primate-like dung flinging. I appreciate the contributions from all who have shared their long term and newly acquired experience. I have never promoted this technique, rather established a civil conversation as to it's application. The more I have to respond to ridiculous demands for more documentation, the more it sounds like promotion and that is not my intention. If you find the technique suspect or undocumented, don't do it and don't ask me to promote it or justify to you. It has been shown by several growers to enhance their yield. If your biggest beef is that it's a sticky or the title of the thread says High-Yield Technique then, sorry, maybe I should have titled it Potential high yield technique to satisfy those. maybe it should have just been Defoliation or leaf pruning. Whatever the title the outcome would be the same. The fact is that it generated huge interest, largely positive.

So glad this time around the positive reception and participants far outnumber those who refuse to even experiment an demand others post side-by-side before they experiment on their own and even demand that the conversation meet their criteria until that demand is met.

Later

 

[milehighmedical]

Regardless of everyone's personal opinions on your methods, thanks for at least taking all the time to try to explain it to us.

 

[knna]

The term "defoliation" seems to touch some emocional part of some growers. I have never seen a bunch of growers to ask for proof of other management techniques.

Their same reasoning (to call it respctfully) may be applied to other management tools, that everybody with a little experience growing knows that are impossible to prove on side by sides, because management tool change many things. For example, why they dont ask the same for LST?

When experienced growers that knows their stuff says they have strongly increased their yields using a given management tool, it should be enough, and the best proof that it works (and negate their contributions is somewhat irrespectfull, BTW). Management tools cant be explained to the last detail. Using them implies some art and mastering adquired by experience for the grower, adpatin to each own situation. That some people goes SCROG and decrease their yield dont mean that SCROG is a not valid tool. Just that the grower used it on an inadecuate situation or did it wrong.

Same stands for Defoliation. Its a management tool that many growers have found very useful increasing their yield on their own situation. I could understand some ask constructively trying to understand better what situations benefit more from a given management tool.

But lately destructive criticism, using troll techniques used to negate any constructive debate has arised. And I only can understand it if people doing it are very ignorant about growing or because this tool caracteristics touch some emotional fiber in them.