Deficiency or Toxicity? Pics

[berryhill]

10K/Bignugget

10K/Bignugget

Thanks alot my friend, I will try the recommendation described. You guys are helpful as hell, thanks again!

 

[berryhill]

MynameStitch

MynameStitch

Man, I need to straighten this bro.....sorry for the time lapse in this response.

Your advice was 100% correct stitch!!! In regards to ph levels, I had been maintaining 6.3, no friggin good! A peat based soiless medium is definitely mid 5s to 6.0! Thanks big time, to ya bro! Just when I thought I knew everything! LOL The best of

 

[Seed Buyer]

BerryHill - glad to see you are still rocking. Don't think a little pH problem will keep you down for to long. How about posting some more pics of that killer Burma Lights for us to drool over!!!!!

 

[berryhill]

BerryHill - glad to see you are still rocking. Don't think a little pH problem will keep you down for to long. How about posting some more pics of that killer Burma Lights for us to drool over!!!!!

I'm caught in the race man, haven't run her in a while SB. I broke it down to one pheno now, which is sweet. Been running the hell out of those elites x g13skunk beans man. Feel like a turd for not already breaking you off. However, I'm taking cuts this weekend bro, if the snow doesn't overtake our ass! LOL You know I'm around, so......

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

FIrst off; all strains can relate to different pH levels; so if he grew out a different strain besides this one had no problems but is having them now and is a diffferent strain which would explain why. ALso what size pot is that? Looks like you put the damn thing in a storage container; can we say rootbound?



His is a soiless mixture and around this fourm soiless mixture pH's is 5.5 to 6.3

Some plants like different pH levels some don't which is why there is a range.

Cannabis growing is not rockey science; but anyone who has grown for a bit knows when you add that much junk to your plants you are going to cause an imbalance.
Do you realize how many different chemical's you put into your plant? Bound to have problems.

AN is completely overrated with there stuff; the best stuff they got is sensizyme, there main line of nutrients grow bloom micro, Big bud carbo load and B-52 thats it; the rest can go jump off a cliff because there are better products out there at a cheaper price.

I have been doing this for a very very long time I have seen so many sick plants it's not even funny anymore.

So berry you chose what you want to do it's your grow; you asked for advice I gave you my 2 cents on the matter.

I never said pH was the sole cause of your issue either all I said your plant does have magneisum issues but was trying to figure out why and I already know why you have them so now it['s up to you to fix the problem you do so the way you want too.
I am not here to have a piss fest either Charles Xavier
Funny how you have no gallery and you just registered here in Feb 2007......

We have a saying around here, if the person has no gallery don't bother to listen to them; this site attracts peeps with no galleries and piss poor advice; the resident Dr's around here know this solid.




So I guess you think soiless mediums should be in that range ehh? Like I said back to the books for you!

I use B52 and it should be used very sparingly once a month. It's kinda like superthrive really.

I have been here very long time I know a lot about sick plants, the problem is they all show different issues and I can only go by what the grower tells me which is why I ask many questions to get the facts straight.

I am sure anyone here will agree it's magnesium which I told my 2 cents and his pH is off if he is keeping it that way; but I never said Ph was causing his magnesium issues I said he is either using to little or he is using way to many products; I said what I did and I am not going to have a piss fest with trolls

id have to say hes not giving enough N or Mag to his plants. if hes low on mag hes probably low on calcium iron, etc.

i also have to comment on your smash at AN. although alot of companies make products, simaler, or exact in formula, others add to certin products to , lets just say 'condense there line-up' and mixing nutes if you dont know what-exactly-you-are-doing can lead to toxicities.

some, or alot are kelp, 'seaweed' extract, or some type of alfalfa, humic, and all thoes vitamins.

just like you said "mixing all that junk".... might cause some problems... its called BINDING in chemistry and its when the compounds (read chemical nutes) bond into undesired compounds. essentialy a lock-up.

Organic-b by AN is better then B-52, so give it a try.
although i dont see that happening anytime soon.

 

[berryhill]

DIGITALHIPPY

DIGITALHIPPY

Thanks man, its a case of the "way to much syndrone" obviously. She's doing fine now bro, got her all under control LOL

 

[Dr. G]

i know im late but does lk have all the b vitimins that b52 has?

 

[MynameStitch]

Hey berry, good ya got things fixed bro! It's hard to convince peeps sometimes ya know?
All in all, at least things are looking real good for ya bro, I am glad

 

[berryhill]

Hey berry, good ya got things fixed bro! It's hard to convince peeps sometimes ya know?
All in all, at least things are looking real good for ya bro, I am glad

Felt like an idiot man, after I was enlightened Stitch. Man told me that ProMix BX (Soiless), is just passive hydro. Keep the ph levels low as required in a hydro format. He said that your recommendation is spot on brother, which is obviously correct from the lovely growth happening before me! Salute to ya, once again Stitch!

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

Felt like an idiot man, after I was enlightened Stitch. Man told me that ProMix BX (Soiless), is just passive hydro. Keep the ph levels low as required in a hydro format. He said that your recommendation is spot on brother, which is obviously correct from the lovely growth happening before me! Salute to ya, once again Stitch!

oh promix ive herd it is a nutrient void medium.

 

[MynameStitch]

no, promix is not a nutrient void medium. Peat moss holds nutrients and has some nutrients in it, not to mention some additives they can put in the mixture, like castings and lime and such and such.

 

[berryhill]

Premier Pro Mix BX, is a soiless media comprised of the following ingriedients: Canadian Sphagum Peat Moss, Endomycorrhize (Bennies), Perlite, Vermiculite, Dolomitic & Calcitic Limestone, Macro & Micro Nutrients about 400ppms, and a wetting agent. It comes in 3.8 cu. ft. compressed bales at $17.99 U.S. I've been useing this media for years in outdoor grows, but unable to grow outdoor anymore. Useing it now for indoor growing, and have found that a ph between 5.7-6.0 is optimal. I had been running a strict ph of 6.3 as in soil, but discovered many negative issues as a result.

After talking with Stitch and a few other peeps that have been useing Pro Mix BX a number of years, I have found the above described ph levels to give beautiful healthy growth.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings

As the time presented itself, I felt it now prudent to use it in crafting this overdue (and overlong) response.

...the response is actually more about transparency, honesty and accountability. I believe that if we choose to engage here (on these boards) then we are responsible for each other....therefore to satisfy responsibility, I felt obligated to respond in full....C.X.

If I am to stand by this statement, then I should do so fully....but first:
berryhill

I am more than pleased that your needs were met and that you feel well serviced with the responses prompted by your query.

Grow on, brother; grow strong.




To business:
MynameStitch

"WTH NOt feeding enough? THats insane"....MynameStitch

Perhaps I should have stated: not enough essential elements in the proper ratios are being made bio-available to the plant i.e. not enough {insert element here}. I thought “not feeding enough”, would suffice. Mea culpa.


"You can use carbo load everytime if you want too thats alright"....MynameStitch

If anecdotally Carboload is primarily molasses, then using it "everytime" would have exacerbated the displayed symptoms in two ways:

1) The abundance of Iron will negatively affect Phosphorus uptake and assimilation, which will in turn decrease Magnesium uptake.

An aside: Potassium Silicate stimulates Iron uptake, as such, it should primarily be used in the vegetative and early flowering stages.

2) An overabundance of Calcium will negative influence Magnesium uptake.


"...your ph is off your plant is not able to take in nutrient's it needs so even if you have an excess your plants are not able to absorb it right".... MynameStitch

Substrate pH is indeed important; the potential of problem lies in an incomplete understanding of why it's important and/or a miscomprehension of how the mechanisms for nutrient uptake work.

If this knowledge is absent, then discussion will be lacking.



berryhill

"I can only speak from "theory" when I say that seems to be acidic when in peat"....berryhill

With respect to acidity, it isn't and it is (it is not but it can be). There is a distinct difference between medium pH and solution pH. Medium affects solution; solution has little to no affect on medium.

There is often confusion between the concepts of pH and Alkalinity.

Note: Solution alkalinity (not pH) is the primary factor affecting substrate pH.

Definition:
pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration present in solution.

Alkalinity is a measure of the acid buffering capacity of the solution.

pH affects the solubility of fertilizers/additives in solution. However, the range of water pH (5 to 8) common in nature is not enough to influence substrate pH because if discussing strictly pH, high enough concentrations of acids or bases are not present.

On the other hand, the measure of alkalinity is comprised of bases (bicarbonates, carbonates, etc), so the effect it has on substrate pH is similar to that of Dolomite Lime i.e. it influences substrate pH by buffering it higher.

When one artificially lowers the pH of a nutrient solution one is also decreasing the ability of said solution to buffer itself; once added to the substrate, with the buffering capacity diminished, the medium pH tends to drift lower than it would without solution pH adjustment. Even if one is adjusting the solution pH to the medium level, essentially one is continually adding more acid to the medium. Eventually the load is sufficient to drastically change the medium pH.

The concept of buffering is likened to camels carrying straws. The buffer is the camel; each drop of 'pH down' is a strand of straw. Eventually, you get one straw too many and the camel's back breaks.

So: If the medium pH, due to the influence of solution alkalinity, held around 6.2 then it isn't too acidic for our purposes. If one continually adjusts the solution pH downwards (affecting the solution alkalinity in the process), as a result the medium pH will become too acidic because the medium pH will not hold at 6.2.

This is why pH adjustment in this case was unnecessary; the alkalinity of the solution (plus the amended lime interacting with the nutrient solution pH) would have kept the substrate pH in range.

An aside: Alkalinity can not be measured with a pH meter; the pH of the solution offers no clues as to how much alkalinity a solution possesses. Experience and observation confer to inform the cultivator as to the nature and scope of alkalinity problems.



MynameStitch

"Anyone will agree your pH is off; but yes magneisum DOES get locked out at low levels for soiless mixtures"....MynameStitch

I beg to differ; I'm not just “anyone”; Measureable Magnesium uptake restriction happens at pH values less than 4.

Interesting Aside: Substrate Phosphorus stimulates Magnesium uptake. Since most ‘pH down' solutions commonly use Phosphoric Acid, a spike in Magnesium uptake (if available) is often noted. pH down and Dolomite lime in the same substrate seems casually counterintuitive, but the Dolomite 'releases' Magnesium every time the Phosphoric Acid is used, often to the benefit of the plant.

In this instance, MynameStitch is vindicated because the pH was lowered, nevertheless the Magnesium ‘deficiency’ wasn’t resolved as a result of lowering the pH, rather as the result of increasing available Phosphorus; Either way, berryhill gets plants that are a little less Magnesium deficient. However, in Mathematics and Science, the correct answer/conclusion is only partially correct.

For example:
"...all strains can relate to different pH levels; so if he grew out a different strain besides this one had no problems but is having them now and is a diffferent strain which would explain why"....MynameStitch

Partially correct; all (true) strains tend to have varying nutrition requirements and, therefore differing nutrient profiles; they need different elements in varying ratios. Since pH influences nutrient solubility in solution, it is assumed that pH is the variable that requires manipulation (and that works....sometimes); however, if one was to pay attention to element ratios based on nutrient profiles as determined by strain (and of course, not everyone is able to do this), then one could leave the solution pH constant (within range) for all strains with no dire consequences.

In actuality the pH requirements are the same, the nutrient requirements are what vary.


"His is a soiless mixture and around this fourm soiless mixture pH's is 5.5 to 6.3"....MynameStitch

The pH of the substrate should be held at 5.2 to 6.4 (5.5 to 6.3); the pH of the nutrient solution is another matter.


"Some plants like different pH levels some don't which is why there is a range"....MynameStitch

I addressed this roundabout conclusion.


"Cannabis growing is not rockey science; but anyone who has grown for a bit knows when you add that much junk to your plants you are going to cause an imbalance"....MynameStitch

Again, I am not "anyone"; methinks, neither is berryhill


"AN is completely overrated with there stuff; the best stuff they got is sensizyme, there main line of nutrients grow bloom micro, Big bud carbo load and B-52 thats it; the rest can go jump off a cliff because there are better products out there at a cheaper price"....MynameStitch

Bias and opinion should be no substitute for fact and the presentation of objective information.

For myself, the idea is not to get everyone growing the same; the philosophy is to make possible (where/when possible) an equal excellence in cultivation for all, regardless of method or products used.


"I never said pH was the sole cause of your issue either all I said your plant does have magneisum issues but was trying to figure out why and I already know why you have them so now it['s up to you to fix the problem you do so the way you want too.
I am not here to have a piss fest either Charles Xavier
Funny how you have no gallery and you just registered here in Feb 2007"......MynameStitch

An observation: Your conceit is not warranted; I can most certainly assure you that there is still much to learn (if that is what you wish to accomplish). Perhaps you are not "here to have a piss fest", but you are not above slinging mud.

If you indeed judge books by their covers, then I don't think you are in much of a position to dispense advice...but that's just my opinion.


"We have a saying around here, if the person has no gallery don't bother to listen to them; this site attracts peeps with no galleries and piss poor advice; the resident Dr's around here know this solid"....MynameStitch

Again, just my opinion...but that is "piss poor advice"; where you're standing is not so solid as you may believe. Certainly a gallery has its merits, but you’re advocating a mentality that is laissez-faire at best, just plain lazy at worst.

(I paid good money and considerable time for my Doctorate, thank you very much.)


"So I guess you think soiless mediums should be in that range ehh? Like I said back to the books for you!"...MynameStitch

I wrote the book(s).

Why pH requirements between soil and hydroponic applications are different is largely based on the types (structure) of roots developed in each and the manner of the interaction between the roots and the medium.

For simplicity of categorization, soilless is considered a hydroponic method of growing; however, since the methods are diverse, not all hydroponic applications can be treated the same. (Similarly, all soil types cannot be treated the same either, but distinctly as a result of differing substrate pH and oxygen availability.)

To simply state: in hydroponics the pH needs to be 'X' is misleading.

We know that essential ion exchange occurs optimally at different pH values (based on solubility); we know roots that form in soilless media are akin to the type that develops in well aerated soils. We also know the natural symbiotic micro-fauna that develops in soilless mixtures are similar to the ones found in aerated soils. So: It is not much of a stretch to imagine that a similar pH is required for both soil and soilless applications. (Plus, of course, the similarities that the influence of solution alkalinity plays in both types of media, as briefly touched upon earlier.)

An aside: Problems experienced in soilless media often attributed to pH are technically incidences of nutrient imbalance. (Usually, not enough of the secondary nutrients: Calcium, Magnesium, Sulphur or an improper Primary Cation Ratio (PCR) with Phosphorus as an antagonizing factor.)


"I have been here very long time I know a lot about sick plants, the problem is they all show different issues and I can only go by what the grower tells me which is why I ask many questions to get the facts straight"....MynameStitch

I concur; it is documented that you provide a most invaluable service and I would count you an asset to the community, in general, and a treasure of this forum (sub-forum) specifically. It takes a great deal of time and personal sacrifice to contribute to the boards as much as you do, and I for one, appreciate the effort. There should be no confusion on that point.

Here’s where I believe the water becomes cloudy: In my responses I was speaking directly to berryhill, and I made clear effort not to make mention of any extraneous member by name. In my opinion, it is you that decried the veracity of my statements in a manner that left a bit to be desired. I don't mind being challenged; I do mind being challenged, needlessly.

For example:
"I am sure anyone here will agree it's magnesium which I told my 2 cents and his pH is off if he is keeping it that way; but I never said Ph was causing his magnesium issues I said he is either using to little or he is using way to many products; I said what I did and I am not going to have a piss fest with trolls"....MynameStitch

If by your own admission the plant is deficient, why retort so rudely?

If pH is not a real issue, why push that agenda?

If you are sure of your conviction, why resort to name calling?





Information for the interested:

"You're overfeeding your girls, they dont need everything you can throw at them, just what they can use. Anything else is going to cause problems"....FarmerJoe

Nutrient concentration is not as important (detrimental) as nutrient profile or the ratio of elemental nutrients in respect to each other. What is characterized as nutrient deficiency or nutrient burn is often more accurately described as imbalance.

A 'ppm' meter does not read/report actual parts per million; it reads Electrical Conductivity (EC); which is a related yet distinct property. The tool is meant as a rough guide. Stating 'X' ppm is too high or too low is misleading.

The plant's response is dependant on the actual elemental ratios of the nutrients available to it, whether 'nutrient strength' is at three hundred (300) or three thousand (3000) ppm.

(Of course, the law of osmosis still apply; I am discussing 'lockout' within an acceptable concentration range, with the caveat that some 'ppm'...like those provided by products like Liquid Karma... pertain to no elemental nutrients but still significantly register as an increase in total ppm (total dissolved solids…tds) when read with a standard meter.)

Furthermore, the demand for nutrients is mitigated or positively influenced by a host of variables including but not limited to: medium used, oxygenation and rhizosphere, bio-mass, photo-saturation and photoperiod, air circulation/ventilation and Carbon Dioxide concentration, temperature and temperature differential, humidity, hormonal profile and genotype.

So: One must listen to the plant.

That plant is not saying over fertilization; the visual symptoms do not corroborate that diagnosis.


"You need a bigger pot, with better soil. That pot is TINY for that plant. Fixing soil chemistry in a pot with more roots than soil is the impossible task"....stinkyattic

Absolutely; a bigger pot and hence increased medium volume would be of benefit; it increases rhizosphere stabilization and decreases the influence of solution alkalinity… particularly in soil.

A well balanced soilless medium, (plus the use of liquid humates and beneficial micro-organisms) insure ready nutrient uptake.

The point that the leaves are perpendicular or less to the stem does not support a diagnosis of root binding (as well, the absence of conclusive symptoms of micronutrient deficiencies rules out this possibility).


"Yup, I agree with everyone here BUT CHarles!"...MynameStitch

No one has to agree with me; in a supposition of right and wrong, that doesn't make me less right.




Bignugget

My heartfelt condolences on the recent loss you've suffered. I hope in this time of grieving that the strength of friends and family is enough to hold you up as I am certain your strength is holding up others.

Awful timing I suppose, but this response has no correlation with your recent tragedy. Unfortunately this is when I got around to responding. I am asking in advance for your forgiveness if any of the following causes you stress or offense.

"Your running way too many additives IMO, I run PBP cal mag and Liquid karma and they love it"....Bignugget

Not all applications are equal; not all experiences are universal.


"I would say the pH is high for a hydro grow I have personally never done soiless mixe but would stick with the accepted range on the forums, I have seen a diagram of the nutrient availability on here before and above 6.2 your going to run into issues"....Bignugget

As stated the pH value for "hydro grow" is not a constant.

I greatly appreciate your honesty and forthrightness, still you are commenting on things you have no practical experience in. I have worked with all media types, well known and otherwise; I was relying on both that experience and on my familiarity with the concepts of cultivation in my dialogue with berryhill


"1300PPM is pretty high for 3 weeks in flower IMO"....Bignugget

Not according to the plant in question. Also as stated, ppm in this context is not definitive and undue significance should not be placed on it.

A considerable proportion of the ‘1300 ppm’ (tds) were not essential nutritive elements.


"I dont know this charles xavier fellow, but to come in and spout off some self-righteous speech on MNS who just pointed out that 1300PPM is already plenty high and certainly doesnt need INCREASED just shows how little respect you truly have IMO"....Bignugget

Yes...you don't know me. I invited you via private message to perhaps become more acquainted with my online self. You declined to respond.

If you thought my speech was pompous, then I apologize. If you thought it was directed at MynameStitch, then you are mistaken.

There can be no real question concerning my integrity and the respect I extend to every member of my community.

I am glad you qualified the statement by making it clear that your opinion was being expressed, and of course, you're entitled to your view, but when your personal estimation is used as a counter for objective reasoning, then that calls your position into question.


"Also Liquid Karma is made by Botanicare not GH but hey even though you want to sound super smart you can't know everything right?"....Bignugget

Thank you for the correction. You're right I can't know everything, but I can certainly aspire to.

Smart is in what you said, not how you said it.

I am gracious in accepting responsibility for things misspoken, but in all honesty, the manufacturer of the product, has no real bearing on the gist of my post. To mention it in such a way is diversionary; it may serve accuracy, but it doesn’t serve veracity.


"Maybe I am full of shit but hey you can read my words right....ohh yea and look at my pics, go grow some weed and come back and talk Charles"....Bignugget

Well at the very least you invited me back. Thank you.



"Charles X, I can assure you, is anything but what has been described here!"...berryhill

Thank you for the show of support and note of acknowledgement; it meant/means quite a great deal to me.




10k

"I just have to say that reading this thread and seriously taking a good look at the edit times on some of the posts, reminds me of that old tv commercial where the stuffed shirted gent shows up at a stoplight next to another hoytetoytee old gent in a rolls royce, rolls down the window and says...
"I say old chap, would you have any Grey Poupon""....10k

Thank you for taking to time the weigh in with comments; I am always honoured when an esteemed member of the community, such as a forum moderator, visits a thread that I have posted in (even if the comments can be construed or misconstrued as defamatory). You weren't explicit as to whom you characterized as the hoitytoit, however, it is my strong suspicion that you're referring to myself. If you believe the manner of asking belittles the request, then I hope you are not above granting small requests.


"Bignugget covered the topic advice here pretty damn well imho"....10k

I am heartened that you stated this as opinion. In my response to Bignugget it is stated that I disagree (with both his advice and with his classification of my character). I am confident that I can support my positions if need be.


"But I must add, trying to measure the tds of organic poop soups like pbp soil, is totally pointless and bound to lead to serious mixing mistakes in your nute coctail(s)"....10k

Succinct and accurate; this is essentially one vertebrae in the backbone of my conclusion. It doesn't matter what the 'ppm' meter reads, what does the plant state?


"Your advice was 100% correct stitch!!! In regards to ph levels, I had been maintaining 6.3, no friggin good! A peat based soiless medium is definitely mid 5s to 6.0!"...berryhill

I know this post is quite a bit to read (and perhaps not easy to follow), but herein lies some clues as to why you saw improvement with a treatment independent of the actual diagnosis.

In the end, though, you had healthy plants, and that's really all that matters.
(The academics can be taken or left at discretion).

Sincerely,
Charles.