Deficiency or Toxicity? Pics

[berryhill]

Seed plant in flower at day 24 since flip.

Medium: ProMixBX 3.8 Cubic Foot Bales (Straight/Unamended) 3 gallon grow bags off the floor in raised beds. Room Size 7'x 13' x 8'/Cubic Feet/728

Nutes: PBP Bloom/Soil, ANs Big Bud, Liquid Karma, PBP Cal/Mag=1mL/L, ANs B-52(B-vitamins), Humic/Fulvic 1mL/L, ANs Voodoo Juice (Root Builder), ANs Carbo Load, ANs Barricade (Potassium Silicate)@1mL/10L. Maintaining a ph of 6.3 to 6.5, last feed 1340ppm four days ago, w/Milwaukee SM802 Meter(.68 Conversion). These plants are taking anything I throw at them (Nutes).

Enviroment: Sealed Grow, CO2 Supplementation/Currently 1200ppms, Temps/Lights On 82F. to 84F. at the canopy, Lights Off 74F. to 76F. Humidity/ Lights On 44% to 54%, Lights Off ( Basicaly the same as lights On). Two 16" Air King Oscilating Fans, Activated Carbon Scrubber Exhausting into the room.

Lights: 1000watt H.P.S. and 1000watt M.H. Seperate Units

IMO, it looks like Mag deficiency....have foliared with Epsom Salt at 400ppms for two consecutive days with the addition of PBP Cal/Mag@1mL/L in nutrient mix. It appears that the color has brightened some, and everything else looks o.k. considering. Can you please advise potential steps to recovery, or is it to late to catch up? Thank you very much for your help, advice and any additional info required...hollar! P.S. Appears to be a mobile nutrient perhaps.

 

[Guest]

In soil that would be an N or mag deficiency. Not sure with hydro.

 

[MynameStitch]

Nutes: PBP Bloom/Soil, ANs Big Bud, Liquid Karma, PBP Cal/Mag=1mL/L, ANs B-52(B-vitamins), Humic/Fulvic 1mL/L, ANs Voodoo Juice (Root Builder), ANs Carbo Load, ANs Barricade (Potassium Silicate)@1mL/10L. Maintaining a ph of 6.3 to 6.5, last feed 1340ppm four days ago, w/Milwaukee SM802 Meter(.68 Conversion). These plants are taking anything I throw at them (Nutes).

dude that is one chemical cocktail; you do not need all of that. I find half of AN additives are pointless. Carboload b52 big bud, sensizyme and a few others are the best ones out of the bunch; there grow micro and bloom is good but you have to use some of there other products to get the best out of there main feeding line.

THe b52 is very strong I have used it and should not be used like AN states; should be used once in a while max 2 times a month.

How often are you feeding your plants?
Have you tested your run off for your mixture?

Your mixture is soiless and contains more peat than anything else so your ph range needs to be 5.5 to 6.3....the run off water from after watering your plants.

It does look like magneisum; cannabis tends to move magneisum around much differently in flowering than in veg; where in flowering it can happen in the top parts of the plant and in veg the lower to middle parts.

Now we need to find out why you have it; I am sure you have a buildup somewhere; using more and more products can conflict with others easily and when this happens it's hard to tell which one is causin the issue and most of the time it's the additives. If it's not causing the issue then your pH is not stable causing magnesium to become locked out.


The important question is how often.

 

[berryhill]

MynameStitch

MynameStitch

Thanks alot for your response man! No doubt, that you are correct in describing overkill stitch. Been trying everything, but the right thing! When in doubt, flush it out!

I flushed the hell out of em useing 450ppms of Iguana Bloom ph'[email protected]. tested my run off at 6.3! Yea, ProMix is primarily peat, acidic, but have been runing at a ph 6.3 to 6.5 for the past couple years now. My commercial strain loves it! Apparently this new strain doesn't! LOL

Cocktail hour is over bro! LOL I will tune it down to something more comphensive to myself man. Just thought I would try combining base nutes so I could discover this B.S. The flip side is, all the sister plants to the one in question were shiny and green before entering 12/12 like they are suppose to be. However, the one in question, had a bad start with slightly less than shiny green glow before 12/12.

Do you have a recommendation on a safe ph zone? Is 6.3 to 6.5 to high in your opinion? I'm trying to raise a little in hopes to unlock, move the Mag around more freely? Is this feasible Stitch? Thanks alot for your time man, and Peace.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings berryhill

I am under the impression that we know each other from another forum; do you concur?

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s.

Deficiency or Toxicity?....berryhill

Deficiency.

Carbon Dioxide supplementation, a vigorous strain, adequate light levels, additives that boost metabolism rates and an organic based bloom fertilizer...You're simply not feeding enough.

(pH problems manifest in ways not supported by the image)

C.X.

 

[MynameStitch]

WTH NOt feeding enough? THats insane....

You can use carbo load everytime if you want too thats alright.

As for your pH its off you need to bring the ph down to 5.5 to 6.3 then figure out your feeding; your ph is off your plant is not able to take in nutrient's it needs so even if you have an excess your plants are not able to absorb it right.

Fix the pH; you can add more peat, or coffee grounds... but you will have to test it in another pot add a bit of peat or coffee grounds and test ph run off so you know how much you need to use; or you can use ph down in your nutrient mixture after it all has been mixed and set out a bit.

 

[berryhill]

Mr. Charles Xavier, Greetings!

Mr. Charles Xavier, Greetings!

Greetings berryhill

I am under the impression that we know each other from another forum; do you concur?

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s.



Deficiency.

Carbon Dioxide supplementation, a vigorous strain, adequate light levels, additives that boost metabolism rates and an organic based bloom fertilizer...You're simply not feeding enough.

(pH problems manifest in ways not supported by the image)

C.X.

Absolutely, I concur! Truly, what a wonderful surpise my friend! You helped me tremendously in a time of chaos. LOL A man strapped for Bear, is the first thing that comes to mind.

Trust all is well with you and yours CX. Many thanks for poping in and no doubt, many others welcome your proffesionalism. Peace to you my friend, B.H.

 

[berryhill]

MynameStitch, Thank You!

MynameStitch, Thank You!

No doubt, if the ph is off, certain nutrients will be locked out Stitch. Apparently, it only takes one bad batch of incorrect ph levels to create a bad scenario.

Typicaly, when completeing a mix, I will record first initial readings then allow it to mix another half hour for a second reading. The Potassium Silicate I use is primarily for a ph up that works effectively in small amounts. My nutrient mixes "before" Potassium Silicate are typicaly a ph of 4.7 too 5.2. Reflecting that my Base nutes are the primary cause of driving this low ph initialy.

As to your recommendation of ph levels at 5.5 too 6.3, I have not experienced useing low ph levels as the 5.5 or even below 6.2. This is "not" a statement of dispute Stitch. I can only speak from "theory" when I say that seems to be acidic when in peat. Evidently, my theory is theory! LOL Does not Mag become more available at a higher ph? Please, if you will, describe your rationale behind this, and forgive my inexperience Stitch.

Genuinely appreciate your time my friend, and your patience Bro. B.H.

 

[MynameStitch]

Anyone will agree your pH is off; but yes magneisum DOES get locked out at low levels for soiless mixtures

Your pH run off was 6.3 and your mixture is primarly peat based which is soiless like you and I said.

I flushed the hell out of em useing 450ppms of Iguana Bloom ph'[email protected].

Not only did you flush them but you flushed with the wrong ph and you also washed out whatever magneisum that was left in the soil depending on how well you flushed them out.

You also did not state how often you were feeding your plants; nutrient deficiencies can be masked by another problem; which may look like not feeding enough can be caused by low to high ph levels depending on the situation it is.


ALL strains are different when it comes to nutrient's care lighting tolerance and heat.
First I would fix your pH then up your cal mag; but I need to know how often you are feeding them that chemical cocktail man; thats just nuts throwing all that at your plants;

all you need is a good grow bloom nutrient and if you like a bloom booster and a plant metabolizer and thats about it.......

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings berryhill

Well met, my friend; well met indeed!

I see that you are back and I hope that you are whole. Thank you for your kind inquiry...let me assure you that all is quite well. Allow me to extend the same courtesy towards you and your family with hopes that my state is a shared one.

First, let me compliment you on your reasoned and well measured responses. I am not surprised; you still display the due diligence and keen observational skill that compliments your passion for the plant.

Allow me to be frank: It is somewhat unusual that I would encounter you in "the Infirmary". I say unusual because as of late, I do not usually peruse this sub-forum. Now you very well know that my absence is not due to me being averse to helping those with concerns; rather it is because this sub-forum appears (at least to me) to be a place where some members frequent in order to validate their egos.

Now that is not to say that these individuals are not speaking with great conviction; they posses conviction in spades, and for the most part they believe that they are dispensing good advice. However, what they do not possess (oft times) is practical experience and true expertise; and of course when some other entity comes along, who trumps them in both areas, they are not able to discern the truth of a more informed diagnosis.

I do not display a gallery, so apparently (and somewhat understandably) I lack currency for those needing visual proof that I am indeed a cultivator. My only retort is: you can see the words that I post, can't you?

Allow me to be blunt: I'm not interested in pissing matches. I post this reply because we have a prior standing relationship, you are a friend…but also as a gentle reminder (to those that care to be reminded), that the true mark of a master is the ability to divine whom they can still learn from.

As I've recently stated in another thread: a little science can be a dangerous thing.


To business: Your pH is well within the acceptable range for the medium that you are utilizing; do not bother adjusting it…simply or elaborately…it's not necessary. I believe your own experience supports this position as well.

Some gardeners crave simplicity. Some growers are ill equipped to deal with complexity. Some cultivators, such as yourself, possess the inclination and the ability to meet every need of their wards... and so, if you are satisfied with the results of your amendment regimen, I see no reason to discontinue its use; each product supports the others well. (Only [Botanicare's]* Liquid Karma is somewhat redundant in that line-up and Advanced Nutrients' B-52 should be used sparingly and only up to week two (2) of the flowering period.)

Advanced Nutrients' Big Bud (liquid) applied at the recommended dosage should add 300 - 420 PPM to your nutrient solution. At this stage of the flowering period, you could safely cease or diminish its use. Replace those PPM with bio-available Nitrogen, Magnesium (primary), Phosphorus, Potassium and Calcium (secondary). In other words make more nutrients available to the plant. You will see markedly improved results within three (3) days of implementation (Don't go overboard; moderation is still key).

I'm certain you will alert me to any omissions I may have made or if I have overlooked any snippets of information that need be clarified or expanded upon. As always I look forward to our dialogues.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. My apology for the length (and continuing length) of this response. Though I must admit I've been particularly ‘verbose’ lately, the response is actually more about transparency, honesty and accountability. I believe that if we choose to engage here (on these boards) then we are responsible for each other.

Like I've said, I usually avoid "the Infirmary", but I chose to be engaged (was promptly challenged to a 'piss fest', politely declined the invitation, but disclosed that I imbibe a copious amount of fluids and that I haven't used the urinal in sometime), therefore to satisfy responsibility, I felt obligated to respond in full.

C.X.

 

[MynameStitch]

FIrst off; all strains can relate to different pH levels; so if he grew out a different strain besides this one had no problems but is having them now and is a diffferent strain which would explain why. ALso what size pot is that? Looks like you put the damn thing in a storage container; can we say rootbound?



His is a soiless mixture and around this fourm soiless mixture pH's is 5.5 to 6.3

Some plants like different pH levels some don't which is why there is a range.

Cannabis growing is not rockey science; but anyone who has grown for a bit knows when you add that much junk to your plants you are going to cause an imbalance.
Do you realize how many different chemical's you put into your plant? Bound to have problems.

AN is completely overrated with there stuff; the best stuff they got is sensizyme, there main line of nutrients grow bloom micro, Big bud carbo load and B-52 thats it; the rest can go jump off a cliff because there are better products out there at a cheaper price.

I have been doing this for a very very long time I have seen so many sick plants it's not even funny anymore.

So berry you chose what you want to do it's your grow; you asked for advice I gave you my 2 cents on the matter.

I never said pH was the sole cause of your issue either all I said your plant does have magneisum issues but was trying to figure out why and I already know why you have them so now it['s up to you to fix the problem you do so the way you want too.
I am not here to have a piss fest either Charles Xavier
Funny how you have no gallery and you just registered here in Feb 2007......

We have a saying around here, if the person has no gallery don't bother to listen to them; this site attracts peeps with no galleries and piss poor advice; the resident Dr's around here know this solid.

To business: Your pH is well within the acceptable range for the medium that you are utilizing; do not bother adjusting it…simply or elaborately…it's not necessary. I believe your own experience supports this position as well.

So I guess you think soiless mediums should be in that range ehh? Like I said back to the books for you!

I use B52 and it should be used very sparingly once a month. It's kinda like superthrive really.

I have been here very long time I know a lot about sick plants, the problem is they all show different issues and I can only go by what the grower tells me which is why I ask many questions to get the facts straight.

I am sure anyone here will agree it's magnesium which I told my 2 cents and his pH is off if he is keeping it that way; but I never said Ph was causing his magnesium issues I said he is either using to little or he is using way to many products; I said what I did and I am not going to have a piss fest with trolls

 

[FarmerJoe]

You're overfeeding your girls, they dont need everything you can throw at them, just what they can use. Anything else is going to cause problems.

 

[Guest]

Your plant is way over fed bro.. lower them nute$ .. it's got lock out.. it'll snap out of it --you can tell your plant is well fed if its keeping its older growth (lower fanleaves) *Use molasses 1tsp/gallon
not sure why the other guys trying to get ya to kill your plant..

 

[stinkyattic]

Plain and simple.

You need a bigger pot, with better soil. That pot is TINY for that plant. Fixing soil chemistry in a pot with more roots than soil is the impossible task...

 

[MynameStitch]

Yup, I agree with everyone here BUT CHarles! 12 in tall plant to 1 gallon size pot minimum!

Rootbound= more issues. nutrient absorbtion.

 

[Guest]

Plain and simple.

You need a bigger pot, with better soil. That pot is TINY for that plant.

^^Ya I bet it's rootbound also which will cause PH problems which will cause lockout.. to many nute$ drop some if your gonna increase ppm later also.. plants just out of wack change pot and you'll have plenty of time to get it back on track.. once you fix everything your plants will be able to handle all that stuff because your using 2kw they'll be drinking alot ~_~ have fun

You can top 1/4 off the top bud and the top bud will fillout pretty wild for ya with all that light power

1kw I feed em between 1000-2000ppm I transplanted from 1gallon to the 5gallon for the flowering on in the far back left.. rootbound will get ya
Just fed the seedlings 800ppm .. keep in mind I'm using City Tap water which is 300ppm aka Calmag .... you judge for yourself.. Fed the ones on the right 2000ppm they like it..the coyldons are just now falling off at day 15 for the ones in the back right;I veged them for 2weeks and toped them once....you should stop feeding em N pretty soon...was told 3-4weeks in is a good time to cut back on N.. but you don't have to you can keep on feeding em they'll eat it just nothing will happen with it..
back it off till you get bigger pot thou..




I know the shit that grows out side isn't getting PH'd nutes all the time but have hella root space.. so meh inside you in smaller pots you have to grow it kinda different unless you control the root zone while growing it I guess...
over 1400ppm in veg .. didn't even change the ph from 7.5 but hella root space heh.. that lil pot gotta be drying out hella fast...





GET BIGGER POT and everyones right actually lol pretty funny..

 

[berryhill]

T/Y

T/Y

Thanks everyone of you for taking your time to help! Big thanks! Looking for solutions only, not a competition. Charles X, I can assure you, is anything but what has been described here!

Nevertheless, I'm not in HYDRO, and the plants are not ROOTBOUND! They are 3 weeks into flower, have grown a plant once or twice before. If you wouldn't mind, please read the thread from the begining before recommending a course of action.

Topic: These genetics have been useing HIGH amounts of nutes throughout all phases of growth. Uncommonly high amounts than I have been accustomed to, with no problems until I decided to COMBINE base nutes, to include PBP Bloom/Soil and Iguana Juice Bloom, and yes I have been EFFECTIVELY useing Big Bud as a BLOOM BOOSTER with no problems. Not to mention the UNNEEDED additives with consistent excellent results. Please allow me to say, that I have no interest in competing.

I normaly feed all my commercial strains once a week, increasing ppms at each weekly feed by approxitmately 100 to 200 ppms depending on there appearance, circumstances. Four to seven days before entering 12/12, I transplant into 3 gallon gro bags useing a nutrient mix consisting of: Iguana Juice Bloom, Humi/Fulvic@1ml/L each mix, Carbo, Sensizym, P&t, Voodoo Juice to pump up the roots, and Seaweed Extract, along with 100ppms of Big Bud to start the show. B-52 is only used within the first two weeks if I allowed my plants to get a little to tall in veg. Half or slightly more of the 700ppms in this mix are base and B.B., the rest additives. With this described mix, I have had NOTHING but success with a final strict ph of 6.3, maybe 6.4 at times. Allowing at least two (SAME) consecutive ph readings over a 45 minute to an hour time span. ph is stabilized.

Now the problem: The change in the above described mix was altered with introducing PBP Bloom/Soil combined 50/50 with Iguana Bloom for base. WHY DID I CONSIDER DOING THIS? HERES WHY....these particular NEW genetics from bean were not responding the same as all previous strains have with the above described nute mix. Even when I increased ppms to 1120 for the soul purpose of discovering likes/dislikes. Useing R/O water at 00ppms and adding PBP Bloom, 1ml/L of Liquid Karma, and PBP Cal/Mag for the visual indications of what appeared to be MAG deficiency after two consecutive foliars of Epsom salts at 400ppm. At the first feeding useing the combo base Iguana/PBP, Liquid Karma, PBP Cal/Mag, the mix finished at 1340ppms with a ph of 6.4, "don't have my data books at hand on the ph...think thats correct give or take. The plants remained healthy and green from midway down and brightened some. The second "COCKTAIL" mix, was the same except ppms were increased to 1400! Ofcourse that sounds shocking normaly IMO! Because it is, NORMALY! These friggin plants are not normal! LOL like half of us on these boards here! LOL But that is the gig in a nutshell peeps.

In closing, it really isn't a cool idea to insult peeps like Charles X, especialy when most are unaware of his genuine abilities! Yes, a gallery DOES give us a more comprehensive idea of someones potential. However, its not the final determination under "some peeps" circumstances. I am "not" a master grower, nor is this a modest statement, and no its not common for me to be in the infirmary. Ego and embarassment is not a factor for me, excellence in cultivation is! Most importantly are peeps like yourself, who don't mind taking your time to help someone like myself! Thank you sincerely my brothers! Peace

 

[Guest]

from that pic I would have assumed the plant needed more root space.. I need to try to do dat without getting same size plant rootbound

all mine were rootbound when I check at end of grow which was like 30days later or so.. these were 3ft-4ft tall thou


Good luck

 

[berryhill]

from that pic I would have assumed the plant needed more root space.. I need to try to do dat without getting same size plant rootbound

all mine were rootbound when I check at end of grow which was like 30days later or so.. these were 3ft-4ft tall thou


Good luck

Its really not difficult HENNESY considering the parameters. However, this is a bean grow with indeterminates. Your vegging time is a definite factor, as I mentioned, transplant from a one quart/1 litre container well rooted, into 3 gallons of soil/ProMix BX, allow to stabilize from transplant 3 to 7 seven days, then 12/12. No root bound issues at all. I will make a note to take pics of the rootball before harvest. I run seed plants in 3 gallon gro bags, once keepers are selected, they go into 4'x12'beds, no containers, for a full run. Useing ProMix BX as my medium. I don't have issues with my medium, never have, as someone mentioned in there post. The best of growing and thanks for the input bro!

 

[10k]

I just have to say that reading this thread and seriously taking a good look at the edit times on some of the posts, reminds me of that old tv commercial where the stuffed shirted gent shows up at a stoplight next to another hoytetoytee old gent in a rolls royce, rolls down the window and says...
"I say old chap, would you have any Grey Poupon"

Bignugget covered the topic advice here pretty damn well imho.

But I must add, trying to measure the tds of organic poop soups like pbp soil, is totally pointless and bound to lead to serious mixing mistakes in your nute coctail(s).