Deficiency has reached my main cola, should I throw this thing out? What should I do?

[I Care]

Fixed double post by posting these updated pics

Is it screwed?!

There’s chance for recovery, it needs a lot of food.

I can absolutely guarantee you're right on bare minimum root bound - it's WAY too small and I plan to increase in all future plants

Also may very well be true on the soil thing. They have been watered via Blumats their entire life but after seeing your comment I inspected the soil and pot and it's absolutely on the dry side. I just turned up the dripper flow a bit

I'm a novice

Thank you

Ran out of soil before so i am familiar with the symptoms next to other plants.

If you’re not too worried about it and don’t need the space leave it, it would do better with a lot of water and double of food, it may or may not be too late. You’d have to grow it like hydro cause the roots are bound up.

Edit: Oh and I like your tap water, I would have to buy spring water to have that kinda dissolved solids already in my water. I’m trying to max out right now and I’m feeding 1200-1300 bringing water up from 52ppm is a lot of food. Would be easier to do with hard water.

 

[GMT]

You have 2 problems, one you ran out of nitrogen too soon, you need to continue to feed them with grow nutes even in flower if you're going to use pots too small for the size of plant you're growing. Follow revegetta's advice and get those leaves out of that bud. Next you have enough calcium in your water, you don't need to add any other source of calcium. You say you add worm casting for cal mag, so you add calcium to a grow with more than enough calcium coming from your tap. Get some mono magnesium, canna elemental additives magnesium sulphate and use that instead of worm castings next time.

 

[gedLang]

Hi gedLang!!
Just curious on your thoughts on this spreadsheet posted by a chemist, on reddit, which I've been using as a dosing guide. Sourced as full lb or more of absorbic acid powder from a little health food shop literally in my tiny town - so assumably way more readily available in most places!

I now just simply throw 0.25g into a 5gal bucket which is a slight "over dose" and according to the users on Aquaponics, the effects are sustained, and also immediate

Huge thanks for your checking in!

I'm not seeing a link to the spreadsheet but 0.25 g in 5 gallons is more than enough to remove chlorine and chloramine. It will also likely lower the pH of the water a bit. Seems fine to me. Are you testing the pH of your water after using ascorbic acid and pH down? That would be fairly easy and would help you understand if pH is causing issues.

I would certainly finish this run if I were you, it looks pretty close and the buds look very nice. Don't expect the old leaves to go back to being a dark green color at this point. Even if you fix the problem, the existing leaves will probably still have whatever discoloration and spotting they have now.

 

[KIS]

Chloramine will evaporate but it takes much longer, maybe several days or more. The lime juice will also remove chloramine due to ascorbic acid.

But in general, I think that chloramine/chlorine are unlikely to cause deficiencies on their own. They have an inhibitory effect on microorganism populations but it is not so dramatic as to cause major problems. A test of pH and ppm seems wise in this case.

My understanding is that chloramines are quite stable and require interaction with organic matter to actually be complexed, breaking down to chlorides and oxygen?

 

[gedLang]

My understanding is that chloramines are quite stable and require interaction with organic matter to actually be complexed, breaking down to chlorides and oxygen?

Hmm, I think my previous post was basically incorrect on this point. I'm trying to find good resources to answer this well, but I'm not having much luck - let me know if you have anything.

From what I am reading in sources that are not very definitive, an open container of water will take several weeks for chloramine to drop to undetectable levels. That's longer than "several days" like I suggested above. For most of us, that is so long that it's not practical. By what mechanism does this happen? I am not sure, some papers suggest that interaction with bacteria is the main reason for chloramine decay, and exposure to open air could bring bacteria into the water.

I am seeing in multiple sources that ascorbic acid removes chloramine, and from what I can tell 50 mg per gallon is ample.

What do you think of the rest of that post - "chloramine/chlorine are unlikely to cause deficiencies on their own. They have an inhibitory effect on microorganism populations but it is not so dramatic as to cause major problems." I'm purely basing that on my past experience - I think the impact of drinking water chloramine and chlorine are often overstated in this area. I still remove it when watering and making compost teas, but I forget sometimes and don't worry about it. Haven't noticed much of a difference, but then again I don't own a microscope.

 

[KIS]

Hmm, I think my previous post was basically incorrect on this point. I'm trying to find good resources to answer this well, but I'm not having much luck - let me know if you have anything.

From what I am reading in sources that are not very definitive, an open container of water will take several weeks for chloramine to drop to undetectable levels. That's longer than "several days" like I suggested above. For most of us, that is so long that it's not practical. By what mechanism does this happen? I am not sure, some papers suggest that interaction with bacteria is the main reason for chloramine decay, and exposure to open air could bring bacteria into the water.

I am seeing in multiple sources that ascorbic acid removes chloramine, and from what I can tell 50 mg per gallon is ample.

What do you think of the rest of that post - "chloramine/chlorine are unlikely to cause deficiencies on their own. They have an inhibitory effect on microorganism populations but it is not so dramatic as to cause major problems." I'm purely basing that on my past experience - I think the impact of drinking water chloramine and chlorine are often overstated in this area. I still remove it when watering and making compost teas, but I forget sometimes and don't worry about it. Haven't noticed much of a difference, but then again I don't own a microscope.

Decades ago I talked to a chemist at a company, I believe it was Vita D Chloe, which is a commercial ascorbic acid product. I believe he said 500 mg of Vitamin C will treat up to 25 gallons of water. Doing this from memory though. I would agree that ascorbic acid will work for treating chloramines based on what I'd heard.

I don't typically worry about chlorine/chloramines when watering, though it will damage your compost teas. Of course, it's super easy to filter with a charcoal filter so I try to do that when possible.

I have seen issues with excess chlorides in soil, and the chlorides were already on the high end. It would depend on other inputs but that could be contributing to the problem. Here's an article on water quality with metrics for cannabis. https://www.kisorganics.com/blogs/news/the-importance-of-water-quality-and-water-testing

 

[revegeta666]

I know my stuff looks brutal, and is easy to make fun of (i do it to myself!) but you guys are class acts all around

There's no reason to make fun of anyone especially when it's one of your first grows. My first grows looked worse than that

There are people on this forum who have been growing for years and have worse results than you, yet you see them in every thread acting like cannabis scholars, arguing and lecturing people about stuff they have no idea about. Posting pics of their vegging plants every week and suddenly when mid flower time comes the updates stop for some reason. Now that's embarrassing.

At least you have the courage to show your plants and the humility to ask for advice

 

[ice minus]

There’s chance for recovery, it needs a lot of food.

Ran out of soil before so i am familiar with the symptoms next to other plants.

If you’re not too worried about it and don’t need the space leave it, it would do better with a lot of water and double of food, it may or may not be too late. You’d have to grow it like hydro cause the roots are bound up.

Edit: Oh and I like your tap water, I would have to buy spring water to have that kinda dissolved solids already in my water. I’m trying to max out right now and I’m feeding 1200-1300 bringing water up from 52ppm is a lot of food. Would be easier to do with hard water.

Awesome, thank you very much for the info and especially great because you've had it happen!!

What do you recommend feeding it? Would I use something like a liquid Botanicare solution or something because there's no time to wait for a dry top dressing to work?

That's especially wonderful about the water, I had myself utterly convinced it was the cause of my woes

If it comes out of my tap close to 8 pH, would you say I should be using a pH down on it?

Thanks again

You have 2 problems, one you ran out of nitrogen too soon, you need to continue to feed them with grow nutes even in flower if you're going to use pots too small for the size of plant you're growing. Follow revegetta's advice and get those leaves out of that bud. Next you have enough calcium in your water, you don't need to add any other source of calcium. You say you add worm casting for cal mag, so you add calcium to a grow with more than enough calcium coming from your tap. Get some mono magnesium, canna elemental additives magnesium sulphate and use that instead of worm castings next time.

Totally understood and it all makes sense, I find myself confused about what size pot is actually acceptable or not .. there's so much conflicting info out there and the soil is quite expensive.. also I don't grow big monster plants! I'd prefer a variety of small plants to keep strains new and interesting

I will look up those products now -- I have Epsom Salts USP but I'm unsure if this is what you meant .. someone told me the added sodium isn't great on another forum so I'm completely confused

I'm not seeing a link to the spreadsheet but 0.25 g in 5 gallons is more than enough to remove chlorine and chloramine. It will also likely lower the pH of the water a bit. Seems fine to me. Are you testing the pH of your water after using ascorbic acid and pH down? That would be fairly easy and would help you understand if pH is causing issues.

I would certainly finish this run if I were you, it looks pretty close and the buds look very nice. Don't expect the old leaves to go back to being a dark green color at this point. Even if you fix the problem, the existing leaves will probably still have whatever discoloration and spotting they have now.

Maybe I messed up the link, sorry about that, it's from the Aquaponics forum on reddit and the link is here!

My tap pH is super high like 8 so any added pH downing is absolutely useful I'd imagine

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement!!

Decades ago I talked to a chemist at a company, I believe it was Vita D Chloe, which is a commercial ascorbic acid product. I believe he said 500 mg of Vitamin C will treat up to 25 gallons of water. Doing this from memory though. I would agree that ascorbic acid will work for treating chloramines based on what I'd heard.

I don't typically worry about chlorine/chloramines when watering, though it will damage your compost teas. Of course, it's super easy to filter with a charcoal filter so I try to do that when possible.

I have seen issues with excess chlorides in soil, and the chlorides were already on the high end. It would depend on other inputs but that could be contributing to the problem. Here's an article on water quality with metrics for cannabis. https://www.kisorganics.com/blogs/news/the-importance-of-water-quality-and-water-testing

> Checks name, says KIS
> HEY, and he linked to the KIS website
Are you Tad from KIS?!

I am using Black Swallow KIS soil and I listen to your podcast! I actually shop at Black Swallow in person and they're super nice guys, I stayed around just shooting the breeze with them in their shop for over an hour more than once!!

I'd love to pick your brain on a few key questions because I encounter issues eventually with my plants so far and I would try think of at least a few questions that I hope will help me out on my next attempts!

And if you aren't Tad, then, oops!

There's no reason to make fun of anyone especially when it's one of your first grows. My first grows looked worse than that

There are people on this forum who have been growing for years and have worse results than you, yet you see them in every thread acting like cannabis scholars, arguing and lecturing people about stuff they have no idea about. Posting pics of their vegging plants every week and suddenly when mid flower time comes the updates stop for some reason. Now that's embarrassing.

At least you have the courage to show your plants and the humility to ask for advice

You're awesome, big thanks again for the kind words and helpfulness on the forums

I posted a picture of one of my first fully finished plant earlier today here on the Flower Picture Forum https://www.icmag.com/threads/angel-98.18131520/ and I'm pretty proud of it even with all my screw ups, hoping with your guys help it can only improve!

Thanks again to everyone who replied

 

[KIS]

Awesome, thank you very much for the info and especially great because you've had it happen!!

What do you recommend feeding it? Would I use something like a liquid Botanicare solution or something because there's no time to wait for a dry top dressing to work?

That's especially wonderful about the water, I had myself utterly convinced it was the cause of my woes

If it comes out of my tap close to 8 pH, would you say I should be using a pH down on it?

Thanks again


Totally understood and it all makes sense, I find myself confused about what size pot is actually acceptable or not .. there's so much conflicting info out there and the soil is quite expensive.. also I don't grow big monster plants! I'd prefer a variety of small plants to keep strains new and interesting

I will look up those products now -- I have Epsom Salts USP but I'm unsure if this is what you meant .. someone told me the added sodium isn't great on another forum so I'm completely confused

Maybe I messed up the link, sorry about that, it's from the Aquaponics forum on reddit and the link is here!

My tap pH is super high like 8 so any added pH downing is absolutely useful I'd imagine

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement!!


> Checks name, says KIS
> HEY, and he linked to the KIS website
Are you Tad from KIS?!

I am using Black Swallow KIS soil and I listen to your podcast! I actually shop at Black Swallow in person and they're super nice guys, I stayed around just shooting the breeze with them in their shop for over an hour more than once!!

I'd love to pick your brain on a few key questions because I encounter issues eventually with my plants so far and I would try think of at least a few questions that I hope will help me out on my next attempts!

And if you aren't Tad, then, oops!


You're awesome, big thanks again for the kind words and helpfulness on the forums

I posted a picture of one of my first fully finished plant earlier today here on the Flower Picture Forum https://www.icmag.com/threads/angel-98.18131520/ and I'm pretty proud of it even with all my screw ups, hoping with your guys help it can only improve!

Thanks again to everyone who replied

Yeah it's me. Thanks for using the soil in your grow! Feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions I can answer directly.

 

[ice minus]

Yeah it's me. Thanks for using the soil in your grow! Feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions I can answer directly.

Amazing, and a huge thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I just sent you a long, wordy, confusing e-mail that may possibly be in your spam folder because looking back on what I wrote it seems so "long" but I guess these are important to me

Thanks again for your time and friendliness!

 

[Redrum92]

Hi friend, just wanted to know, what dictates OR maybe should say dictated for you that your hard water absolutely needed to be converted to RO?
What were your symptoms? What is it about the water that makes it unadaptable?

This is the water composition I've been provided by Mannheim Water Treatment Plant leadership, if you don't mind taking a quick glance: https://www.icmag.com/threads/here-are-the-water-results-from-region-of-waterloo-tap-water.18130976/

Does anything jump out as problematic?

Mostly my water is just way too high PPM, full of all sorts of crap, I'm assuming a lot of calcium/lime scum, but I've never gotten it analyzed, but it definitely locked out nutrients on my soil plants. Burnt leaf edges/tips, low yield and smell, etc. Reverse osmosis + 2-3ml of CalMag or Calimagic has worked well for me since. PH seems to come naturally from my RO around 6.5, which isn't perfect, but close enough, as soil I use has a good amount of pH buffer.

 

[ice minus]

Mostly my water is just way too high PPM, full of all sorts of crap, I'm assuming a lot of calcium/lime scum, but I've never gotten it analyzed, but it definitely locked out nutrients on my soil plants. Burnt leaf edges/tips, low yield and smell, etc. Reverse osmosis + 2-3ml of CalMag or Calimagic has worked well for me since. PH seems to come naturally from my RO around 6.5, which isn't perfect, but close enough, as soil I use has a good amount of pH buffer.

> around 6.5 which isn't perfect

It's not ?!
isn't that our target for watering into soil? If not, what would it be ideally?
I always actually thought I needed to reduce my high 7 to 8 down to exactly 6.5, so just curious for my own future knowledge!

Thanks again !!

 

[Redrum92]

> around 6.5 which isn't perfect

It's not ?!
isn't that our target for watering into soil? If not, what would it be ideally?
I always actually thought I needed to reduce my high 7 to 8 down to exactly 6.5, so just curious for my own future knowledge!

Thanks again !!

It really depends on the genetics. I have a couple sativa/narrow leaf hybrids and blueberry strains that are weird and seem to prefer more 6.4, 6.3, even. I meant "not perfect" in a very literal sense- it's definitely a perfectly acceptable number to shoot for for the average strain in soil. Like I said, I find it close enough to just go with it for properly buffered soil with most strains. 6.5 is what I mostly use, so definitely no worries there.

7 and 8 would definitely be bad, but as long as it's below ~6.7 or so, in good soil, you'll probably be okay, as long as you aren't reusing soil or excessively watering

 

[Nannymouse]

If the plant like the soil, and there were no build-ups or deficincies because of the water, couldn't the plant just be routinely topped with more of the same soil?

 

[KIS]

If the plant like the soil, and there were no build-ups or deficincies because of the water, couldn't the plant just be routinely topped with more of the same soil?

Just adding soil or transplanting will give some fertility but possibly not enough if the plant keeps growing or is in a given container too long. That's where you may want to top dress or water in something with more concentrated nutrients.