Defeciency or overfert? yellow leaves green veins some burnt tips plz help

[GMax]

ok here we go....first thread, unfortuntately in the infirmiary

HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless/

How long has this problem been going on? bout 1 1/2 wks
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)Secret Jardin DR120
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Waterfarm modded with airstone (drip+DWC)
What STRAIN are you growing? NIRVANA Jock Horror
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Both
What is the age of your plants? 33 days flower
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
How tall are the plants?3' and 3 1/2'
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? flower
What Technique are you using? none, one plant FIM'd
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) hydroton
What is the Water temperature? 62F
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? slightly brown ( floranova )
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) Floranova+Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses(Ca,Iron, Mg)
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 2.5ml/G
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)constant drip
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? 2 weeks flower
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? no Pen deligently kept at 2.5ml/G
What is the pH of the "Tank"? today was 6.5 usually between 5.8-6.1 ( I allow flux)
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment?yep
When was your last watering? today
What is your water temps?62F
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) NA
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? Never use hang on back fish filter works AWESOME
What size bulb are you using?1 400 W MH, 1 400W Hps hotilux
What is the distance to the canopy? 1' and 6"
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 40-50%
What is the canopy temperature? 70F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)70F to about 55-60 (dropped to 50F the other night...ouch)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)440cfm Aircooling lights,265 exhausht
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?passive intake, 265CFm exhaust up top 440CFM air cooling(2)400 W
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? not really
Is your water HARD or SOFT? No
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? RO
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? No
Are plant's infected with pest's? No


OK heres the sitution, I am going to try to make this as short but as detailed as possible. I am on this new kick of using the least amount of nutrients possible. I got so sick of always having overfertilized plants that i decided to experiment. I started out slow and worked my way up to only 2.5ml/G and the plants looooooooved it. went wll the way up till week three flowering without one reservior change and doing great. at the beginning of week 3 flowering I decided to try to add a lil bit of beastie bloom to the mix ( I know it is made by different companies but the two compliment eachother well, better than koolbloom) about three days later I got a slight overfert of one plant ( they are daisy chained , too late to change it) So the first plant in line got the overfert, the plant that is in spot three is my problem plant now, It was very healthy anfd loving the beastie bloom but had to be flushed at the mrecy of the other ( I figured it been bout 2 1/2 months anyways) so i flushed with some florakleen and plant 3 went from dark green to pretty yellow quick. that took me up to week 4 which i started with a diet of only 5ml Beastie in 25G total. that worked fine, didnt overfert them but I had no nitrogen in my diet so the yellwing just progressed. I decide to add a lil bit of veg even though it was coming up to halfway flower. The yellowing stoped for a few days but then stared progressing again. so then I decided to add some bloom to cure it, FNB has a N rating of 2 and i figured that would be enough to keep it in check but the yellowing has progressed. It started at the bottom and worked its way to the top, some are completely yellow and some are yellow with green veins, it was only the one plant at first but now it is slowly heading to the others, and i am noticing some brown tips (no curling) so it is making me think it could also be overfert lockout but all the brown tips are on old growth which is unusual to me cause everyother time i overferted the tips of the newest growth would burn. I lowered the pH yesteday and it went back up today. As far as i can tell the plants are still growing very rapidly everyday. This problem is still in the early/medium stages where i can fix it and recover so i am trying to do that, like I said growth hasnt slowed but they look kinda unhappy, and this looks like it could become a serious problem if not addressed soon. If this wsnt a 10wk flowering strain I wouldnt be sweating it but the leaves are yellowing prematurely and dropping that by the time they were finished their probably wouldnt be any leaves left. I woulndt usually have to ask this online but my partner has my grow bible now so i have nothing to reference. I have 2 Jock Horror from seed ( one skunk pheno, the one that was doing fine but now the problem plant, One Haze pheno , the tallest and the first to get overfert, and niiiice purple colors )and then 3 identical clones from a third Jock Horror, which really arent having any problems.(their pheno is perfect kinda mix between NL and the Skunk) as of today I pumped half the nutrients and added back plain water so I am at a happy medium until i found out the problem( if it overfert i am halfway there, If defecient they still got some nutrients, I dont want to flush if it is defecient and i dont want to add ferts if it is overferilized ) so i am not making either possibility any worse. any help would be apreciated, thanks all !!!
PS by the time of these pics the green veins were completely taken over by yellowing and these picts dont do them the UNjustice, they look way healthier in the pics then they do in real life lol. They really arent thet unhealthy but that is what it means to be a good gardener, catch problems in their early stages and fix it swiflty before it becomes a problem.

 

[Crush]

There doesn't seem to be a problem and much of what your experiencing can be normal. Your plants look great. Check your NEW leaf growth for yellowing which I assume it's not. Those faint leaves should then shrivel and fall off. The plant is using it to supply energy to the bud growth. Also over watering can cause those symptoms but your plants look fine.

Also, very good idea with less nutes = more approach. Many will not do that.

 

[GMax]

maybe... these pics do lil better with the lights off I was under the impression that Jock Horror took 10-12 weeks but since this is obviously Skunk dominant (if not all) so the yellowing may be right on schedule, but the browning tips are becoming more prominent and leaves dropping fast, I dunno i hate having sick plants, check these and tell me what ya think.It is kinda blurry but you can see the tips burning if ya look close. My gut says overfert

 

[GMax]

the answer!! Now more complicted prob

the answer!! Now more complicted prob

Crush i think you hit it on the nose with the overwatering. I was in my room with my partner discussing what we thought was wrong when we heard a waterfall like sound, the plant that is the prob plant was overflowing out the top!!! It took me a second to figure out why but i finally realized that the plant's root system is so dense that it is blocking the water from the dark orange top bucket from releasing to the other lower cream colored bucket. ( i had a similar prob with the other plant that was from seed blocking water from getting in becuase the roots had started to grow into the tubing that connects the bucket!!lol, we didnt find the hole drilling mod til it was too late ) So now i am positive that that this is the reason for the defeciency because i actually have a bucket with clones from that plant ( 2 from each seed plant ) that are doing fine and still green. the bucket has probably been slowly blocking itself for probably the last week or so (same time as prob showed) and i can probably imagine that if water cant get out there is nutrients built up in the bottom of the top bucket. So i am happy that i found out the answer to my prob, but now i got an even bigger prob, if i turn on the drip ring it will slowly start to overflow again. there is an airstone in the bottom bucket but the root system has almost swallowed it up so it isnt bubbling very well, i can almost gaurantee that there is build-up in my top bucket if water cant escape, so what should i do ??? how can i get the nutrient build up out if it doesnt drain and how can i fix my drainage problem? I am afraid to drill more holes in fear of damaging the root sytem and i can unhook it from the drip ring and just have the airstone finsih it out kinda DWC-style? ( like i said it aint bubbling very well, but making bubbles) but that isnt going to fix the toxic build up, what would you do ?? plz hep

 

[MynameStitch]

Your plants will start to yellow a bit, but about a week too early imo.
I would just let them ride it out. Your issue is a nitrogen deficiency.
Also with overwatering it will cause the plants to absorb less nitrogen causing them to go on there reserves. If easing up on the over watering and your nutes have a little bit of N in there it will slow down a bit, but I would just ease up on the watering and not give nitrogen to supplement cause your soon going to be harvesting few weeks time 3-4 weeks...... by then you want all the nutes out mostly.
Your cold temps also is a factor I can tell some of them are showing slight colr changing from cold night temps.

You also get yield loss with cold temps, I would try not to let it go under 65F. From those temp jumps you mess with the plants metabolism.

 

[GMax]

i was thinking about turning the drip ring off and letting it ride out with the airstone that is in the bottom, if I do that will the roots in the top bucket dry out and die or will the roots in the bottom send water and oxygen to the top ??? the root system has completely encompassed the top bucket and clogged drainage holes so drainage is slow if at all

 

[MynameStitch]

take a picture of what you just said about the holes being clogged...... post it here.

 

[GMax]

i cant really get a get into get a pic but i got this pic from another thread to help explain
my bucket looks like the bucket on the right, the mass of roots on mine has filled in the drainage holes and blocked water from draining from the top to lower bucket causing the top bucket to overflow and flood out the top

 

[MynameStitch]

That is why you should have drilled holes on the side, roots grow downwards to catch water, it's good to have holes at the bottom, but they always get clogged and should have holes drilled on the sides rather than just the bottom.....

Boy you are really in a predicament here..... you may need to drill a hole somewere or have to drain the water by hand with some kind of equipment like a aquirum suction, it's a tube that you stick in there shake it up and down and it siphon's water out..... you would have to do it of course and not just keep it there...

too bad they don't make small sump pumps lol

 

[GMax]

I put a air valve control thingy that has a knob to turn down air pressure so i can control the speed of the drip, and turned the drip speed down and it hasnt overflowed since( I think the last time it flooded the roots floated and maybe rearranged a little bit in my favor . I am definately going to do the mod next time, but you say i should make my bucket look like the bucket on the left ^^^^ and also put holes in the sides too????? (BOUT HALF INCH UP FROM BOTTOM) ??????

PS thanks for all your help. you getting rep for lurking the infirmiary and helping people out. I see a post by you in 99% of these infirmiary forums. same for you crush.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) hydroton
What is the Water temperature? 62F
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? slightly brown ( floranova )
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) Floranova+Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses(Ca,Iron, Mg)
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 2.5ml/

Drop the molasses.
Increase the dose of FNB to 8ml/gal.
Use only RO water.
You're at 30 days. With FNB you need to up your pH to 6.0-6.1 for the next 2 weeks then drop it back down to 5.8 or whatever your plants seem to like best. This will get rid of any 'deficiency' looks.

You'll see a big change in about 2-3 days. 2.5ml/gal is nowhere near enough nutes for your ladies.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

If you have questions about that level of nute strength, read the Lucas-Formula thread I link to in my sig.

 

[MynameStitch]

yup that is exactly correct
Put holes in the sides of them so next time they won't get clogged.

 

[GMax]

i plan on using the lucas formula next time around, I have been doing a lot of research on the topic. I bought a TDS meter yesterday ( i never owned one ) and took a reading and my ppm was 142!!!! lol. and I thought my water was pretty strong at the time. If it was at 142 then the most it could have ever been was 300-400 ppm but i think more like 250. I am slowly upping my my ppm to 500 because they are going to start two week flush next sat. but if i can learned anything from this experience is less is probably more when it comes to nutes these pictures above should prove that. Now you can see those pics in a different light, instead of seeing them for trying to identify their defeciencies, you have a first hand look at what a harvest looks like at 142-250 ppm, lol. jock horror is a medium'low feeder and maybe this is just my experience. I did encounter defeiceincys but that could of been avoided if i hadnt got greedy and trying to put it in overdrive ( used booster, burn plants, flush with florakleen two days, rapid yellowing, trying to combat ever since) like i said the plant that is the problem wasnt overferted and didnt need to be flushed, but at the mercy of the others it took the bullet. i learned now that the overferting problems i had in the past were from my system( Emily's Garden- nice system, but if you try to grow full crop it eventually becomes impossible to get that build up in hard to reach places, especially when you buy water from the supermarket) but growing is all a learning experience, but i do plan on doing lucas next time at 5ml FNB during veg and 8 ml FNB during flower cause i plan on growing nebula with the Jock in a waterfarm and cause lucas is one size fits all and those plants are kinda opposite feeding spectrums..so we will see. I have to split this 65/35 so i will post dry weight here and let you know what that little of nutrients effect on my yeilds. to date.. this is by far my healthiest crop. I am at day 39, harvest at 63-67

But back to the situation at hand... Hydro/Soil i just added mollasses yesterday but i can discountinue use from here on out. i also added some FNB to bring my ppm from 142 to bout 250. after i did that i ph'd to 6/6.1 and then this morning i checked the ppm(love my pen dont know where i was wo it ) and the ppm went down bout 30 ppm but ph was 6.5/6.6. added more FNB to bring it from 220 to 350 then phd it back to 6 so we will c where it goes.My ppm in the sytem is about 15 ppm less than my rez so it definately isnt overfeted anymore. i plan on putting the holes next time for sure. isnt a jump from 6.1 to 6.5 overnight not right ????

thanks for everyones help. more rep all around

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Your girls will take a bit heavier hand without doing anything but saying thank you.

Upping the pH is not a problem and your girls will appreciate it. Overnight? Hell, do it in 30 minutes if you can.

Your TDS (with RO water and full nutes) should be at around 1300. Your girls are starving

Believe me that you can give them FULL strength right now and you won't have a problem. When you decide it's time to chop, or close to it, you can flush with pH'd water for 3-4 days but it's not necessary.

They may burn the tiny tips of their leaves with the full strength but they'll acclimate quickly and increase their growth rate dramatically.

 

[GMax]

i didnt manually bring the pH up it did it itself. My question is i pH'd to 6 yesterday, the next day when i checked my numbers again my pH was 6.5, i re-pH'd it to 6 again and the next day when i was 6.3/6.4 ! << is this bad or is this normal because of the little amount of nutrients being used that when they eat some it makes the pH jump that much. I do use RO water. I will take you advise and up the TDS but shoud i do it slowly or all at once? right now i my ppm is bout 350, should i just add 900 ppm all at once or bout 300 ppm/ day for the next three days then finish out the last 10 days like that before the 2 week flush. if my tips are burnt at harvest time then it WILL affect the flavor of the smoke. if my plants are starving they are not eating very fast. I have been adding 100 ppm a day for the last couple days and the most they ate in one day was 40 ppm !!!!! last night i made the ppm 375 and today it is only 350. I am at day 40, start flush at day 49 and havest on day 64. the difference in ppm from rez to bucket is -10 ppm (rez 350, bucket 340)

 

[Hydro-Soil]

i didnt manually bring the pH up it did it itself. My question is i pH'd to 6 yesterday, the next day when i checked my numbers again my pH was 6.5, i re-pH'd it to 6 again and the next day when i was 6.3/6.4 ! << is this bad or is this normal because of the little amount of nutrients being used that when they eat some it makes the pH jump that much. I do use RO water. I will take you advise and up the TDS but shoud i do it slowly or all at once? right now i my ppm is bout 350, should i just add 900 ppm all at once or bout 300 ppm/ day for the next three days then finish out the last 10 days like that before the 2 week flush. if my tips are burnt at harvest time then it WILL affect the flavor of the smoke. if my plants are starving they are not eating very fast. I have been adding 100 ppm a day for the last couple days and the most they ate in one day was 40 ppm !!!!! last night i made the ppm 375 and today it is only 350. I am at day 40, start flush at day 49 and havest on day 64. the difference in ppm from rez to bucket is -10 ppm (rez 350, bucket 340)

Yes, change the TDS right now.

If you can, mix the new solution up in a separate container until you've pH'd it. It isn't healthy to mix up a batch of nutes when you have roots hanging in it. Please try to only expose your roots to thoroughly mixed solution.

Mix 8ml/gal of RO water. Mix it really well.
pH it to approximately 6.1.
Dump the res and rinse it lightly. Fill it back up with RO water and rinse the hydroton for 10 minutes. Dump that solution.
Fill the res with your freshly mixed solution.

Check the pH tomorrow and adjust it down again if you need to.

When you change the res again, go back to between 5.5 to 5.8 (whatever you find your plants like best) and you should be just fine. If it takes longer than 2 weeks for you to change the res, drop the pH down manually to between 5.5 - 5.8. I prefer to change the res though. Uses a bit more nutes but easier for me.

The reason you're having pH troubles is you don't have enough pH buffers in your soil(edit: I meant your res. Tee-Hee) FNG and FNB have buffers in them, you just need to increase your nutrient amount until they're working properly.

Hear me now and believe me later (when your ladies are happy again) this will fix your ills and no..... you're not going to burn them up.

 

[GMax]

Ok i took your advise and upped my ppm to only 700 because it has been a little hot last few days and some leave fringes have started to get that "canoe" shape., I plan on upping it more when it cools a bit.Here is an update pics these are from yesterday before i upped the ppm. I have got the yellowing to stop, i flushed with plain water for two days and then have been slowly upping the nutes since. In the pic : ppm 350, pH 6.0

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Ok i took your advise and upped my ppm to only 700 because it has been a little hot last few days and some leave fringes have started to get that "canoe" shape., I plan on upping it more when it cools a bit.Here is an update pics these are from yesterday before i upped the ppm. I have got the yellowing to stop, i flushed with plain water for two days and then have been slowly upping the nutes since. In the pic : ppm 350, pH 6.0

Looking better and you're past the 50% mark. Keep going!

Edit: the canoe is indeed due to heat. Nothing to do with nutes. It's your plants way of telling you to increase ventilation or cool the incoming air someway.

 

[GMax]

Sorry to hijack my own thread but i have two questions bout that lucas formula Hydro-Soil. I will be using Floranova btw
1) for one i am under the understanding that you use bloom nutes from veg through flowering,everyone says you are supposed to use 8ml/G FNB and keep your ppm between 1100-1300. But when i add 8ml to a gallon of my RO water the ppm are only 950. should i keep my ppm at 950 or do i keep my ppm at 1100-1300 using FNB ??
2) I understand the add back formula but in my Waterfarm my rez is 8Gal but when i got all the buckets connected there is another 2 gallons in the bottom of each bucket totaling 24 gallons. Do i do the addback formula with my rez size (8) or the total amount of water in the system (up to 24) ?? it really wont matter since i got a pen now but jw

PS the tips have started to burn again slightly since upping the nutes