Colchicine....What's your opinion?

[guest2012y]

Colchicine has been used to induce polyploidy in plant cells. It doubles the # of chromosomes in each cell,so in theory bigger cells,bigger leaves,bigger stems,bigger buds,more surface area for trichome glands to develop. It comes from a natural source,the false crocus,(Colchicum autumnale)which blooms in the fall as opposed to the spring blooming crocus. It grows in the upper mid west I believe. Although I'm sure the current method of extraction is far from organic,after treatment of the plant tissue and breeding, the chemical will no longer be traceable in the subsequent generations(or rather clones)or possible supposed polyploid offspring. The stuff is HIGHLY dangerous to work with,it can kill you. You have to wear long rubber gloves,goggles,face shield actually,lab coat,etc. I don't advise anyone to mess with this stuff.
Anyway,you have to have a business license to get the stuff and a good reason you want it. I worked with it 6 years ago,my girl had a business license and we bought a gram of lab grade colchicine for around $200 bucks. I then proceeded to do what has been proposed. I treated several F3 hybrids and they went into a stunted growth period of about a month. After that they began to grow again,and the leaves did look bigger. Well some shit went down and I lost all the work with no outcome of results. Does anyone here have any experience with this stuff? AND would those subsequent generations of supposed polyploids be considered "organic"?????? EDIT: Of course assuming you grow them organic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchicine

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Ive used chochicine several times over the years. Any doctor can write a perscription for the substance as its used in the treatment of gout.

I diluted my cholchicine as directed by mel franks and soaked 100 seeds in the solution unitl they cracked. The germination rate was about 40 % and over 1/2 of the plants were deformed beyond rescue. I picked 6 vigoroous yet clearly mutated from the treatment. Of those 6 plants, 2 turned out to be polyploids that i continued to work with. After 2 years i tossed the project in the trash..

If you use the stuff, keep in mind that it is systmic in nature. It is replicated in the plant tissue and you will ingest it if you smoke the weed. It is only future generations that can be smoked. Me and a buddy smoked 1 joint of the weed and our shit turned bright green for 3 days. Im saying flourescent green. It freaked the hell out of us.

Having said all of that, let me assure you that the effort to produce polyploids is futile and always devoid of any positive outcomes. Potency is NEVER increased and in fact, the only real effect is too double the foilage on the plant which creates lots of problems with disease and growth.
Other than yeild there is no impact.

I recently grew out Bogs Sour bubble and its a polyploid. The potency was good but the plant sucked in every area. poor vigor, disease prone, vegetation that is packed and layered together disallowing interior buds from recieving any light and nurturing disease. That scenario fits every polyploid on the market.

My opinion is that the use of chochine was a "hope" that didn't pan out and the plants that result from its use are inferior. The range of potential mutations that result from using it is so random and varied that chances for potency or other valued characteristics to be enhanced in any positive way would be very low and the result of sheer luck.

 

[guest2012y]

Sweet...that's what I expected to hear. This question arose in my mind when I noticed some leaves on my BMR's that were,well,abnormally large. The vegetation is exactly as you describe. Dense,almost to dense. As to a point where it constricts growth of other branches because they can't get any light trying to push through the massive leaf barrier. I'm not stating that the BMR is a polyploid,but it sure has the characteristics to the point where I thought,"Hmmmmm?" Also a small # of BMR seed growers are experiencing mutations,myself included.
When I played with it,I treated the growing shoots. I cloned off those once they came out of the mutation. This was the way that I felt I could phase out the systemic nature of colchicine before actually ingesting it. Clone off clone off clone to the point where it would be depleted from the tissue. Like I said,I only reached the point where I saved the ones that made it and got a cut off of those 3 out of 20. It seems like it may still hold some benefit in breeding if a guy had a lot of space and time to really select the mutations that didn't create problems with disease/growth. Should we really totally give up on it? Suppose BOG did polyploid,there are a lot of people happy with the result,I'm not complaining at all. Yet he is the first to admit that due to the dense growth,they have a tendency to be susceptible to mold. Interesting this stuff is! I do appreciate your educated response D.S. Toker. MD Thanx

 

[secondtry]

There is a much better option than Colchicine in that you have much better survival rates, high success rates and much higher rates of tetraploidy (a plant can be diploid and tetraploid). Please don't listen of D.S. TOker MD. I have much info on this topic and I have already made my plans for breeding all-female tetraploids (from three land race varieties). However, I don't think this is a topic for the organics section, so I won't write more than what I have. If you want to PM me feel free, I can give you lots of info.

In fact, tetraploid cannabis has been found to increase THC by hundreds of %!! And that is using a Gas Chromatography, not krull fish. There are a few great studies on tetraploid cannabis, one 91 page Italian thesis paper (circa 2009) is a great example (I need to have it translated).

Not only has THC-A (and other secondary metabolites) been found to increase with tetraploidy but yield, plant, flower size, leaf and seed size also usually increase. Also flower color can be affected.

There is chromosome doubling the in the genetic history of almost all higher plants, cannabis is no exception. It naturally (but very rarely) mutates into a tetraploid. I have papers on all these topics.

OTOH, "triploid" cannabis, ie. the kind breed by HortaPhram BV and grown by GW Pharmaceuticals are almost always inferior to both diploids and tetraploids (and tetraploids are often superior to diploids).

The reason HoraPharm BV uses triploid cannabis is because they can patent it and it's hard to make seeds (ie breed) with triploid cannabis (they are most often sterile, infertile or near infertile). But here is a work around: make a plant from HortraPharm into a "haploid" by doubling the chromosome set number to six (either by treating a seed or a branch). Then breed a male diploid (regular cannabis) to the haploid to make tetraploid seeds! Then grow the tetraploid seeds and laugh at HortaPhram BV and their Monsanto like tactics

The skinny:
Don't use Colchicine, but making tetraploid cannabis is a good move, however, it must be done correctly and one needs to use the "root squash" method to count the chromosome sets to make sure the plant is indeed a tetraploid (stomatal density is also a method but root squash is the most accurate).

P.S. the mutagen I will use is almost completely non-toxic, unlike colchicine, thus there is no worry about smoking a tetraploid created with the mutagen I will use.

HTH

 

[secondtry]

Polyploid (or polyploidy) is not a chromosome set number, it's a term for "chromotypes" with more than two sets of chromosomes. For example, a diploid (what cannabis is today) has two sets of chromosomes, while a triploid (the inferior chromotype used by HortaPharm BV) has two sets of chromosomes with a third odd chromosome, and tetraploid (what cannabis could be) has four sets of chromosomes; thus triploid and tetraploid are polyploids, ie. polyploidy.

 

[guest2012y]

I have heard of various other mutagens. I just went with colchicine. I wasn't in it for making some patent pending Monsanto type freak,I was just experimenting,and I didn't have access to this kind of information back then. The main reason I posted this here is the question whether or not those subsequent cuttings/offspring would be organic plants after being grown organically. It's a complicated topic with lots of reading yet to do on my part. I can't say that it would be something to give up on,but having space and time are critical to setting forth on a venture of this type. You(secondtry) must have some room to work with. Thanks for the response.

 

[guest2012y]

BUMP..what are your thoughts on this freaky deal CC?

 

[secondtry]

Hey Capt.

I know I'm not CC but regarding the organic nature of bud from a tetraploid and it's safety you could smoke a flower from a mutated plant as long as the mutagens was not applied to flower (as seed treatment). I would consider clones of a tetraploid to be as organic as diploids because tetraploidy is found in the genetic history of cannabis.

When I make tetraploids I will treat seeds before the shell cracks, I plan to soak seeds in water for 10 hours, then soak in the mutagen/water for 14-20 hours (until seed splits) then I will put in media to sprout.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

BUMP..what are your thoughts on this freaky deal CC?

It's way above my pay-grade.

Reading Secondtry's postings on this (as well as other topics) indicates to me that he's way ahead of me on the science of botany.

I just grow some medical plants which don't even have cool names like Diesel, Kush, Super This, Super That, etc. Kind of a loser in the pot genetics world. I just grow some strains 'from the old days' - no big deal.

The topic is definitely interesting and if I had any kind of a science background (which I do not), I'd probably like to play around with it.

CC

 

[guest2012y]

Hey Capt.

I know I'm not CC but regarding the organic nature of bud from a tetraploid and it's safety you could smoke a flower from a mutated plant as long as the mutagens was not applied to flower (as seed treatment). I would consider clones of a tetraploid to be as organic as diploids because tetraploidy is found in the genetic history of cannabis.

When I make tetraploids I will treat seeds before the shell cracks, I plan to soak seeds in water for 10 hours, then soak in the mutagen/water for 14-20 hours (until seed splits) then I will put in media to sprout.

This was my main worry about messing with the stuff. Yet where do we draw the line on "organic" when we manipulate things this way? I have also heard of the natural occuring tetraploids in cannabis. Can't say I've ever seen or smoked one. Here's a pic of a suspected plant,have you seen this?

 

[big ballin 88]

very cool information you guys got going here. Sounds like some interesting experiments.

 

[guest2012y]

It's way above my pay-grade.

Reading Secondtry's postings on this (as well as other topics) indicates to me that he's way ahead of me on the science of botany.

I just grow some medical plants which don't even have cool names like Diesel, Kush, Super This, Super That, etc. Kind of a loser in the pot genetics world. I just grow some strains 'from the old days' - no big deal.

The topic is definitely interesting and if I had any kind of a science background (which I do not), I'd probably like to play around with it.

CC

You have cool names too CC........Khandahar Killer!! LOL

 

[guest2012y]

Hey Capt.

I know I'm not CC but regarding the organic nature of bud from a tetraploid and it's safety you could smoke a flower from a mutated plant as long as the mutagens was not applied to flower (as seed treatment). I would consider clones of a tetraploid to be as organic as diploids because tetraploidy is found in the genetic history of cannabis.

When I make tetraploids I will treat seeds before the shell cracks, I plan to soak seeds in water for 10 hours, then soak in the mutagen/water for 14-20 hours (until seed splits) then I will put in media to sprout.

ALSO......Do you use DMSO? I did,and again the question of "Organic" or not?

 

[secondtry]

WARNING: Do NOT use DMSO!!!

Not so much for the organic part, but DMSO is systemic and will make the colchicine go right through your skin and into your body!!! That is why it is VERY dangerous to mix DMSO and colchicine unless you are very careful. I would not do so even with rubber gloves to my elbows within a fume hood.

I don't mean to sound alarmist but mixing those two is a very bad idea which is often suggested in the old writings about making tetraploid cannabis. If you soak seeds as I wrote you don't need that evil DMSO.


HTH

 

[secondtry]

This was my main worry about messing with the stuff. Yet where do we draw the line on "organic" when we manipulate things this way? I have also heard of the natural occuring tetraploids in cannabis. Can't say I've ever seen or smoked one. Here's a pic of a suspected plant,have you seen this?

I have seen all kinds of mutations over the years, but it is very rare to find cannabis that is naturally tetraploid. I don't think anyone has found such a thing in hundreds/thousands of years (but I have not way to be sure). The Wally Duck Foot variety is not tetraploid IMO, I think it's a mutant diploid.

You need to measure stomatal density and use root squash technique to count the chromosome sets to know if you have a tetraploid or not.

 

[guest2012y]

WARNING: Do NOT use DMSO!!!

Not so much for the organic part, but DMSO is systemic and will make the colchicine go right through your skin and into your body!!! That is why it is VERY dangerous to mix DMSO and colchicine unless you are very careful. I would not do so even with rubber gloves to my elbows within a fume hood.

I don't mean to sound alarmist but mixing those two is a very bad idea which is often suggested in the old writings about making tetraploid cannabis. If you soak seeds as I wrote you don't need that evil DMSO.


HTH

I am aware!!! And like I said at the beginning of this thread.I DON'T RECOMMEND ANYONE TRY THIS PRACTICE. Leave it to professionals.

 

[secondtry]

Do you have a microscope? I can show you how to measure stomatal destiny so you can see if it is a diploid (but using root squash is generally a better method). I would tell you how to do root squash but that requires a special microscope which cots about $2,000.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Capt.

I didn't mean to make that post in your face to you, I meant it for people who are not aware of the danger. I hope that post didn't come across as rude, that was not my intention. I was only trying to make the point stick out. I can edit the post if it bothers you.

 

[guest2012y]

Do you have a microscope? I can show you how to measure stomatal destiny so you can see if it is a diploid (but using root squash is generally a better method). I would tell you how to do root squash but that requires a special microscope which cots about $2,000.

Nope.....I'm afraid I'm not much of a scientist myself,I just pay attention and learn from things that catch my interest. I understand what stomata are and how they work,and have seen them under a microscope,but I have no access to this kind of tool. Is it the amount of stomata(sp?) per surface area?

 

[guest2012y]

Hey Capt.

I didn't mean to make that post in your face to you, I meant it for people who are not aware of the danger. I hope that post didn't come across as rude, that was not my intention. I was only trying to make the point stick out. I can edit the post if it bothers you.

Oh no.....this is a valid point. This stuff is serious kids.