CHINESE archaeological hemp?

[Farmer John]

Thats what I thought, think you said it earlier but anyhoo, I can grow them just for fun and fiber, and maybe make some canvas for my wifey, she makes cloth diapers and thats some good shit for baby ass. And its nice to see what other exotic flowers he sends and brings...

 

[Spangli]

Thats what I thought, think you said it earlier but anyhoo, I can grow them just for fun and fiber, and maybe make some canvas for my wifey, she makes cloth diapers and thats some good shit for baby ass. And its nice to see what other exotic flowers he sends and brings...

High FJ!

Funny you mentioned amanita muscaria before, our tribes also used them in the ancient times. I know that your ancestors and my ancestors were members of the same tribe long time ago. But then they split and moved to the Carpathian basin. By now you may know which relatives I am talking about .

Happy growing
Spangli

 

[Pops]

The Chinese Yunnan Indica strain put out by Dubi at Ace Seeds is not a hemp strain, but is also not a really potent strain. Tends to be mild and may contain some CBD. Seems to help with anxiety. Too many rumors to know exactly where it came from.

There may be some truth that Levites used cannabis, but only as incense and possibly in the annointing oil. Christians claim that Kaneh Bosm was Sweet Calamus, but the resins of Sweet Calamus were water soluble, not oil soluble.

Sam is correct in that no cannabis was found in the New World prior to the advent of the white man(English and Spanish). One archaeologist claimed to have found cannabis resin or pollen in a bowl in the Midwest, but it was not tested properly. Most archaeologists discount his claim.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Sam, one thing you didn't out, at least to my reading, is that who knows if there was actually a jesus, moses, adam and eve. There are no 100% facts that prove this, that i have every wactched, read, or heard of. To me the bible is just merely a huge book of ancient fairy tales that are supposed to be read and enjoyed and take what you want from them, basically a mere nursery rhym.

If you look most of the bibles stories are taken from other religions, like ancient rome and pagan religions.

There are many nuances between fact, propability and myth, but there exists no veritable proof of Jesus existance, even if it is probable that he existed.
In history and archaeology, you use cross references to establish probability of something.
If for instance the Bible claims that a certain event took place at a certain date, and the event plus the date is confirmed in other sources such as Assyrian or Egyptian scriptures, then the probability of this statement to be true increases simply because we have confirmation from other sources.

If a single source claims that something happened (or in this case, someone existed) and this cannot be confirmed by any other independent source, then this makes the statement speculative.

This is the case with both Moses and Jesus. None of these highly controversial characters are mentioned in any text of the time apart from the Bible.

Alexander the Great is referenced in a large number of cultures and texts, so is Adolf Hitler. We know they existed.

It is probable that Moses and Jesus existed, because the Bible (Old Testament) isn't just one source, it's a number of sources emanating from a collective, namely the Jewish communities (and later Christian communities).

The next question is, how likely is it that the Bible tells the truth about real events? Did the Hebrew people really wander through the desert for 40 years? No whatsoever archaeological proof has been found so far to support the biblical version of this massive exodus.
Which is funny, because thousands of people that wander through the desert build camp grounds, eat, shit, sleep, brake pots and tools and throw them away. Some die and are buried. Reasonably, they must have stayed close to water sources, so we know where to look for them. Archaeologists are trained to find such things, yet nothing can be found. not a trace.

Did Moses really live to be a 120 years old (not to mention Methuselah, who lived for 969 years according to the Bible), as the Bible claims? Oh well, sometimes there's a tiny grain of truth in tales. Maybe both got really old. Some events in the Bible concerning Jesus can be confirmed by independent sources or archaeological findings. Such as confrming the presence of Pontus Pilatius (the Roman Prefect that 'handled' Jesus' case) in Judea at the time (a stella with his name inscribed on it was found in Caesarea in 1961), or confirming the existence of Caiaphas, the Judean High Priest that - according to the Bible - was behind the supposed conviction and crucifiction of Jesus (his ossuary was discovered in 1990). This gives some credence to the Bible version of what happened (not including the resurrection part), but does not prove it.

Biblical events cannot be said to be fairy tales from ancient Rome (which was contemporary to the Judean culture), but some themes in the Bible are covering prehistoric events or myths - such as the Flood story, which is found in the Sumerian Gilgamesh epic, written centuries before the Biblical version.

The Bible recalls the Flood as a local event (kind of like an American remake of a foreign movie), but rather than plagiarism it's just reminiscence of stuff that went down, collective history. Which indicates that one or several floodings took place in this region, in a distant past.

As to the Godly interventions, such as giving Moses the power to part the Red Sea, or raining brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, can be seen in the light of the Hebrew Priesthood, who established their power as mediators with a cruel and jealous God that demanded total submission from his chosen ones, constantly testing them for their loyalty.

If you want a run-down on how the Bible came to be, then Richard E. Friedman's "Who Wrote The Bible?" is a well composed work that takes the Bible apart, bit by bit, from a scientific perspective.

If you want a controversial (well, as soon as you don't agree with the Catholic church, then you're potentially controversial) but very impressive study on Jesus and the early Christians, then go for James Tabor's "The Jesus Dynasty".

You'll never think of Jesus in the same way after reading it.

 

[wantaknow]

i was watching the story of the ice man on the history channel and in a bag he was carring,was a bunch of hemp seed ,they surmized they were for trade ,and carried a high value

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Lets avoid the religion talk unless it pertains to Cannabis....

-SamS

 

[hardhat22]

i was watching the story of the ice man on the history channel and in a bag he was carring,was a bunch of hemp seed ,they surmized they were for trade ,and carried a high value

Do you have a link to that?My searches turn up nothing but lichens or mosses found with him.I know that it was said that he had cannabis and seed when he was first found.Has that changed,or do they just not speak of it anymore?
Peace

 

[scaramanga]

Interesting thread.

There are historical reports of cannabis being introduced into Peru and Chile as early as 1545(Patino 1969), and Colombia by 1607(Vergara Y Velasce 1901). The earliest reports of cannabis in North America that I have ever read about are 1606 in Nova Scotia.

Speciation is a matter of degree and a touchy subject amongst the taxonomic community. Particularly given cannabis' long history of cultivation... Just look what we have done with cruciferous vegetables.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have no doubts about the post 1492 dates you mention they were all documented. And all brought to the Americas by Europeans after 1492.

-SamS

 

[Thule]

Cannabis taxonomy is and will be a matter of debate before conclusive dna evidence is presented.

The indica-sativa classification is pretty much outdated, would you agree? Strains can change dramatically in a few decades after introduction to a new climate. Mexican and colombian strains for example have a great deal of afghan in them but remain predominantly narrow leaved. Also the possible connection between Yunnan indicas, thai and afgani is interesting. Thai is considered one of the extreme ends of the sativa spectrum, yet Sam is convinced thai strains are related to afgani hashplants.

Take a look at this "pure indica".



That's indoor grown royal dane. It's afghan, kush and chitrali influence doesn't show that much after 30 years of adaptation to northern Europe.

 

[Thule]

"Additionally, the molecular data of the present
investigation shows the unique genetic nature of
these plants which is maintained till now.
Humulus japonicus Sieb. et Zucc., a member of the
family Cannabaceae, forms a cluster with Chinese
materials. Previously, it was also noted that the 26s
rDNA region of H. japonicus is almost identical to
C. sativa (Pillay and Kenny 2006). Additionally,
cross grafting of H. japonicus and H. lupulus with
C. sativa was successful (Crombie and Crombie
1975) indicating the very close relationship between
these two genera. Considering these factors, it can be
said that there may be a possibility of gene transfer
between C. sativa and H. japonicus in ancient times
though Humulus lupulus L. forms a different line."

Just a few pictures. I find them thought provoking.

Purple buds?

"The present study of authen-
tication of aDNA from 2500 years old samples of
Yanghai tomb indicated the migration of C. sativa
might take place through the European-Siberian
center of diversity. Considering the geographical
position of Turpan, which is very close to Central
Asia, there is a probability that these plant materials
may have originated from C. sativa subsp. sativa."

If cannabis and humulus japonicus have hybridized in the past, can there be hops traits seen in modern cannabis strains? Maybe a relation between fiber hemp (cannabis sativa) and japanese hops? How about the vine like Australian bastard cannabis? Or this strain from Sinai?

And some hops flowers

Deep chunk anyone?

 

[SoaringHi]

Deep chunk anyone?

It's a male, I see BAWLS!!

 

[BudBo]

Hey all i was jus reading over this old thread n it was very interesting i was wondering tho if anyone knows if any has sat down and tried to make a Cannabis timeline i think it would b alot easier to sift out the fact n fiction by first puttin in order the things we can prove then figuring if things wer possible to happen in between

This was a very good read i'm interested if anyone knos more

Ty all take it easy n hav a good one

BudBo _\\|//_

 

[hardhat22]

I read this interesting paper on plant diversity and the last 2 paragraphs left me with a couple of questions;

1.Is it possible that cannabis evolved in more than one location?

2.Is it possible that it could have been indigenous to many locations,become extinct,then prevelant again?
Peace

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0030043

Dispersal or Drift? More to Plant Biodiversity Than Meets the Eye

Citation: (2005)
Dispersal or Drift? More to Plant Biodiversity Than Meets the Eye. PLoS Biol 3(1): e43. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0030043
Published: January 4, 2005

This is an open-access article

Over 250 million years ago (mya), all the continents of Earth formed a single land mass called Pangaea. Some 50 million years later, this supercontinent began to split in two, forming Laurasia—now North America, Asia, and Europe—and Gondwana—present-day Antarctica, Australia, South America, Africa, and India. After another 50 million years, Gondwana, too, broke up. At the end of the Cretaceous period, New Zealand split off (about 80 mya), then South America and Australia separated from Antarctica (about 35 mya). Fairy-tale quality aside, the story of continental drift fits comfortably with the geological and fossil record and feeds our understanding of current distributions of plant biodiversity.

Although we know how and when Pangaea broke apart, the distribution of fossils of the same species on many different continents, separated by vast ocean waters, challenges us to explain how they got there. Plant life on New Zealand, for example, shares striking similarities to that on other Southern Hemisphere land masses, but scientists have yet to agree on how this came to pass. In particular, one genus, Nothofagus—the southern beech tree, a plant whose 80-million-year-old fossil history goes back to the days of Gondwana—has polarized views on the nature of Southern Hemisphere biogeography.

One theory suggests that geographic barriers (New Zealand and Australia are separated by the Tasman Sea) would have prevented species expansion after the break-up of the continents, so similar contemporary species must have already existed in both places before New Zealand broke away from Gondwana. In this scenario, called vicariance, ancestors of existing lineages drifted with the repositioned land masses. Another hypothesis, born of existing distributions and fossil data, suggests that long-range oceanic dispersal is more likely. But since Nothofagus seeds are not considered ocean-worthy vessels, many believe vicariance is the only possible explanation.

Peter Lockhart and colleagues argue that a clear picture of the divergence dates of various southern beech species could help clarify the relative contributions of vicariance versus dispersal. But they would need significant lengths of DNA sequences to reliably characterize the evolutionary history of each species.

Consequently, Lockhart and colleagues analyzed a 7.2-kilobase fragment of the chloroplast genome (which typically ranges from 110,000 bp to 160,000 bp) for 11 species of three Nothofagus subgenera—Lophozonia, Fuscospora, and Nothofagus—from South America, Australia, and New Zealand. Reconstructing the trees' evolutionary relationships (phylogeny) based on analyses of their chloroplast sequences, the authors discovered a nuanced evolutionary history that supports vicariance for some species and dispersal for others.

Assuming that beech was present throughout Gondwana (which fossil data support), the sequence of the Gondwana breakup should be reflected in the beech's phylogeny. New Zealand beeches should be more distantly related to both Australian and South American species, because of the greater period of separation—65 million years compared to 30 million years. Yet Australian and New Zealand beeches are more closely related to each other than to South American species, which reflects more recent relationships. Given that fossils of all beech subgenera extend back to the New Zealand Cretaceous period, the dating of splits and the nature of the relationships indicate extinction of beech lineages within current subgenera in New Zealand, and possibly in Australia and South America.

Peter Lockhart and colleagues' analyses suggest that the relationships of the Australian and New Zealand Lophozonia and Fuscospora species are too recent to have roots in Gondwana, indicating a role for transoceanic dispersal. The evolutionary relationship between the Australasian and South American Fuscospora lineages, however, is consistent with vicariance. These divergence results, the authors conclude, indicate that current distributions of Nothofagus cannot be explained solely by continental drift (followed by extinction of some species) and that contemporary New Zealand Nothofagus species are not direct descendants of the beeches thought to have reached the island after the split from Antarctica.

Taken together, the results highlight the need for caution in evaluating fossil evidence. The fossil record doesn't necessarily capture when a species first appeared, and a continuous fossil presence can mask extinctions and reinvasions. The authors conclude that their molecular data make the case for investigating possible mechanisms of long-range dispersal—especially the dispersal properties of Nothofagus seeds—and stresses the need to consider more complex hypotheses to explain something as dynamic and complex as the evolutionary history of biodiversity.

 

[mriko]

What a nice thread !
Just a few thoughts of mine, before I start reading it from the beginning eheh...

I already have made hash and oil ointments for topical application, they did not get me stoned at all. Have you tried it? You are the one saying they work.
Read the whole book, make some hash and oil topical and try it. Then say what you think is true, based on personal experience rather then what sounds like maybe it could of happened in someone's dreams..

I'm not surprised. I'd rather think that in the case of this annointing oil, it is not the effect from thc the seeker is after, but rather that one resulting from the synergy of the different compounds involved through the different material used for the recipe. Also, where the user after the thc or other cannabinoid, or after some other compound ?
I've never heard about any cannabis-based ointment anywhere, just the christic oil, and maybe some wierdo tantric stuff, but here too it's about synergy.

There are historical reports of cannabis being introduced into Peru and Chile as early as 1545(Patino 1969), and Colombia by 1607(Vergara Y Velasce 1901). The earliest reports of cannabis in North America that I have ever read about are 1606 in Nova Scotia.

Yep, but most experiments in South America where total failure, except for Chile. The expansion of cannabis around the southern caribbean coast is quite recent actually.

OK, me gonna read thread from the start now

Irie !