Check my wiring

[rives]

i always use the ground on all panels not neutral ground.in case you was to get shock will touching a ballast the ground serves as a outlet so the volts has a place to go.this is what i always thought?the ground i'm talking about is burried in the ground it limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, and contact with higher voltage lines
i most of been doing something wrong all this years then..ooops!

Dominica, the main purpose of the ground is actually not for the things that you have listed. The primary function of the grounding is to make the over-current protection (fuses or breakers) operate as quickly as possible. When there is a ground fault (a hot wire coming in contact with something that wouldn't normally be energized), if the equipment is grounded the breaker or fuse will trip almost instantly from the very high current flow. Without this grounding, the object that is energized can either be subjected to prolonged arcing (leading to fires), or can just sit there waiting for someone to get between it and a solid ground (like your plumbing), and zap them. Ungrounded systems used to be very common, and ironically were safer in some respects for the electricians to work on - you could work the equipment hot without special equipment as long as you didn't get between phases (the hot "legs").

The things that you have listed such as controlling surges and lightning strikes, also use ground but require special equipment that is not commonly used in residential installations.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with using ground, not "neutral ground".

 

[rives]

If I get busted by the NEC that will be the least of my problems. Besides I have fire insurance coverage. I know the price of breakers , and can trade in the ones I've got at HD for smaller ones. Wire is a different story, and I had enough trouble get the 8 4 through the race way.

Now! Does anyone have any suggestion on how to determine why the ballast does not seem to be running thus not lighting the bulb?


JG

JG, my first post telling you about the breaker/wire issue is the 4th post in this thread. Sorry, I didn't see your other one that you said you were getting no responses to. As to the fire insurance, it will normally be invalidated if the fire source was found to be illegal wiring.

Enough on that. Yes, plugging the ballast into a known good receptacle would be a good place to start. However, it still leaves some doubt if you are changing voltage levels. Is the ballast an auto-sensing one, do you need to change taps, or what? If you now have a functional tester, did you check for voltage at the line & load lugs on the timer?

 

[JG's Ghost]

The ballast is auto sensing, and that could mean it will work on 110, but not 220.

I have not gotten there yet to do any testing, but am headed down within the hour. Will let you know how it comes out.

JG

 

[JG's Ghost]

Well. It turned out not to be the wiring. and the ballast did not work until.... I bumped the fuse with my elbow. Then the light popped right on. So I tried both ballasts at 110, and 220, and unscrewed the fuses, then screwed them back in. Everything is working great now.

Rives You'l be happy to know I upped the wire size from the sub panel to the timers to 12/ 3, but there is no way I'm going through the hassle of upgrading the 8/4 to 6/4. I did also lower the breakers in the sub panel to 15 amp from 20.

See I was paying attention.

 

[rives]

Glad to hear it, on both counts. Now if you'd just swap that 60 amp breaker for a 50, I'd really be happy!

Where was the fuse that you bumped with your elbow and got a better connection? I'd be a little concerned about that.

 

[JG's Ghost]

It's one of those screw in fuses, and it's about two inches to the left of where the ballast plugs into the power. You can't see the fuse. All you see is a cap with the word "fuse" on it.

I'm also going to be running a 1hp 110 water chiller (1200 volts) off of a 20 amp breaker from that sub panel, and a blower (800 volts) from another 20A/110 breaker from that sub panel.

Hows that sound to you?

 

[rives]

It's one of those screw in fuses, and it's about two inches to the left of where the ballast plugs into the power. You can't see the fuse. All you see is a cap with the word "fuse" on it.

I'm also going to be running a 1hp 110 water chiller (1200 volts) off of a 20 amp breaker from that sub panel, and a blower (800 volts) from another 20A/110 breaker from that sub panel.

Hows that sound to you?

I think you mean watts, not volts, on the chiller and blower. 1200 watts on 120 volts is 10 amps, and 800 watts on 120 volts is 6.7 amps. If I am understanding you correctly, there are (2) 1000 watt lamps on 240 volts for about 9 amps. Anything else? If this is the total load and you make sure and balance it as best you can (the two 20a/120v circuits on separate phases), you could use a 30 amp main breaker, be under the 80% rule, and still have some headroom.

*edit* You might want to keep an eye on that panel mount fuse for a while after you get things rolling. They usually have fairly high spring tension and make good contact - you may have an internal connection on them that isn't all that it should be.

 

[the_extremist]

Just another FYI, if you had trouble pulling wire through your raceway, your raceway is more than likely too small and also violates the code.

Good luck, brother. Stay safe.

 

[JG's Ghost]

Just another FYI, if you had trouble pulling wire through your raceway, your raceway is more than likely too small and also violates the code.

Good luck, brother. Stay safe.

Funny thing is I was at HD the other day, and ran into an electrician. He told me since it was going through a raceway I did not need the black insulation. I could have just run the insulated wires. If/when I do switch to 6/4 That is exactly what I'm going to do. They will fit through the race way with no trouble. It's getting the old stuff out that will be a bitch because it does have the black insulation on it.

JG

 

[JG's Ghost]

I think you mean watts, not volts, on the chiller and blower. 1200 watts on 120 volts is 10 amps, and 800 watts on 120 volts is 6.7 amps. If I am understanding you correctly, there are (2) 1000 watt lamps on 240 volts for about 9 amps. Anything else? If this is the total load and you make sure and balance it as best you can (the two 20a/120v circuits on separate phases), you could use a 30 amp main breaker, be under the 80% rule, and still have some headroom.

*edit* You might want to keep an eye on that panel mount fuse for a while after you get things rolling. They usually have fairly high spring tension and make good contact - you may have an internal connection on them that isn't all that it should be.

Yeah. Your right. I meant watts not volts, but its been a long day, and that is the total load, for now.

How do I make sure the 2 120 circuits are on separate phases?

A 30 amp main breaker sounds awfully low. I'm trying to leave room for additions in the future. I've still got room on the sub panel for two more 110 circuits. Just don't have any use for them right now.

Where exactly would I find the panel mount fuse?

JG

 

[rives]

Yeah. Your right. I meant watts not volts, but its been a long day, and that is the total load, for now.

How do I make sure the 2 120 circuits are on separate phases?

A 30 amp main breaker sounds awfully low. I'm trying to leave room for additions in the future. I've still got room on the sub panel for two more 110 circuits. Just don't have any use for them right now.

Where exactly would I find the panel mount fuse?

JG

When you plug the (2) 120 volt breakers in, make sure that they are on separate busses. Alternatively, with both breakers on, read from the output of one to the output of the other. If they are on the same phase, you will read zero voltage. If they are on separate phases, they will read 240 volts.

To get a minimum size for your breaker, you add up the total amperage on each phase, take the highest of the two and multiply by 1.25 (this is the de-rating factor for staying at a maximum of 80% of the breaker rating for continuous loads, which are loads that stay on for 3 hours or more). In your case, you take the 9 amps from the lighting (it will be seen on both phases since it is a 240v load) and add the 10 amps from the chiller. This gives you 19 amps on the more heavily loaded leg, and about 16 amps on the other. 1.25 x 19 = 23.75 amps is your minimum breaker size, so you move up to the next standard-sized breaker which would be 30 amps.

The panel-mount fuse that I was referring to is the one that you bumped your elbow on and the light started working. If I understood you correctly, this is a fuse built into the ballast mounted beside the power cord.

The information on the raceway is correct - multi-conductor cable like romex or range cable isn't usually used in a conduit because of the difficulty pulling it in, which you can attest to! Single-conductor wire is much easier to pull in, particularly if you use THHN insulated wire which has a very slick surface and is also rated at a higher amperage than most other wires of the same gauge with different insulations because of it's higher temperature rating.

Good luck.

 

[JG's Ghost]

Thanks for the info Rives, but I think I'm gonna bookmark this page JUST in case I forget anything.

JG

 

[dominicangreen]

if people dont have inspections why all this code talk just put right wire gage and right braker so it dont burn.the hell with city code shit

 

[rives]

if people dont have inspections why all this code talk just put right wire gage and right braker so it dont burn.the hell with city code shit

How do you determine what the right size wire is without referencing the code? Every wire ampacity table that I've seen was originally derived from the code. The NEC (National Electrical Code) is put out by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association). It is a private organization that actually came out of insurance companies trying to come up with a set of standards that would guarantee safe installations back when electricity was new technology (late 1800's). These standards have since been adopted on the local, state, and federal level.

I don't give a damn about code compliance in regards to keeping the city, or whoever, happy. It is simply a way to make sure that your installation will be safe, and takes into account all of the factors that they have learned are important from over 100 years experience. However, if you do have a fire as a result of a non-compliant installation, your insurance company can refuse to cover the loss and you can be held personally (and criminally) liable for other people's loss. Seems like pretty good motivation to follow it.

 

[the_extremist]

How do you determine what the right size wire is without referencing the code? Every wire ampacity table that I've seen was originally derived from the code. The NEC (National Electrical Code) is put out by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association). It is a private organization that actually came out of insurance companies trying to come up with a set of standards that would guarantee safe installations back when electricity was new technology (late 1800's). These standards have since been adopted on the local, state, and federal level.

I don't give a damn about code compliance in regards to keeping the city, or whoever, happy. It is simply a way to make sure that your installation will be safe, and takes into account all of the factors that they have learned are important from over 100 years experience. However, if you do have a fire as a result of a non-compliant installation, your insurance company can refuse to cover the loss and you can be held personally (and criminally) liable for other people's loss. Seems like pretty good motivation to follow it.

QFT. Pay attention, people.

 

[dominicangreen]

right about code for most part.but most people are not growing legal and if some fire happens im sure people are not going to wait for cops to arrest them.as for wire gage size and braker size i agree and proper installment but for insurance codes for property coverage i wouldnt be involve if im not licensed im not claiming anything bro!

you call it code i guess i call it proper math for installation .cant put a wire size to big and feel like its ok because it will hold the load.if that happens and the braker is a high amp braker if theirs a sort the wire wont get hot quick enough to pop the braker so that will cause a fire.all i can say is do the math on amps get a braker for the ampage and get proper wire gage.each wire size can only take so much load and dont wait for police to come if somthing happpens lol run!!!!!!!!!

 

[rives]

I think that most of the people on here have a knee-jerk reaction to authority of any type, which I understand and sympathize with. Call it an engineering guide or whatever you like, but virtually every bit of information on electrical specifications and installations can be traced back to the NEC. For me, as a career electrician, it is simply "the code". As I said before, it encompasses a range of knowledge that was put together over a century of sometimes very ugly experience. The incremental cost of doing things right is usually minimal, particularly if you don't have to do it twice. The last thing that we need at this point is for people to be doing dangerous installations - I was just reading in the local paper last night that an adjacent county is considering making all indoor grows illegal because of the danger from sub-standard electrical installations by growers.

 

[dominicangreen]

peace yall i'm done with this thread..great info rives
at first i thought you was talking about city codes but guess not

 

[JG's Ghost]

if people dont have inspections why all this code talk just put right wire gage and right braker so it dont burn.the hell with city code shit

Because Code tells us what is needed to avoid electrical fire, and while "fire is the Devils only friend" It is not ours.

Needless to say we never want a fire inspector in our little shops it is still a good idea to try to stick with the code as much as possible.

JG

 

[Gomez_Addams]

Just a back-up vote for Rives here, I came in to say nearly all of what he said.

I don't know growing yet, but I do know wiring. Done entirely too much of it, though I am NOT a licensed electrician...