Cheap Nutrient Line for Commercial and Home Grows?

[Old Uncle Ben]

For thsoe of you using R/O... I am very surprised at how fast my filters are being used up. Brand new it was 10-20ppm..I'm at ~100ppm on a 270ppm city water system now. And I'm NOT a big user.

Unless you have a softened (brine) water source first you will go thru R/O filters fast.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Can I use osmocote on tomatoes? I wanna practice on growing tomatoes first before I start growing cannabis.

Of course. I have for years. I also grow (and harvest) tropical fruit which gets nothing but Os. 15-9-12.

 

[Terppalooza]

My nutrient recipe for flowering (in MG/l). In peat/vermiculite mix. What do you guys think. Any opinions on what I could change?

 

[marwachine]

You've fallen for the cannabis hype. There are NO special needs for weed.

All you need is a good hit of Osmocote Indoor-Outdoor Plus and watering can. Start to finish.

How much would be "a good hit" per plant? I'm starting to doubt my decision as I already bought masterblend tomato formula. I'm thinking of trying it first and then use osmocote for the clones when I start to prune so I can compare which ones work better.

What do you think? I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

How much would be "a good hit" per plant? I'm starting to doubt my decision as I already bought masterblend tomato formula. I'm thinking of trying it first and then use osmocote for the clones when I start to prune so I can compare which ones work better.

What do you think? I'm open to suggestions.

I mixed in a small handful in the top inch of a 2.5 gal. pot when I upcanned from the germ pot. I re-vegged a Cannacopia Lapis Mtn. indica and it carried it thru with some tweeks of Dyna-Gro, another VERY complete, one part food that's good for soil and water culture. That span was about 7 months from the time that I sowed the seed to the time I second harvested the plant.

Folks make this feeding stuff difficult when it doesn't happen to be. All you have to do is shy away from the hype that goes with the cannabis specific industry and use commercial ag drills. IOW, learn what makes a plant tick, plant nutrition.

Your main goal is to develop and maintain/retain plenty of root and foliar mass until harvest. The rest will follow - that's just what plants do.

Uncle Ben

 

[Tomatoesonly]

My nutrient recipe for flowering (in MG/l). In peat/vermiculite mix. What do you guys think. Any opinions on what I could change?

You don't see many people posting their numbers.. because I'm sure alot of people have no real idea.
Have you listened to Bruce Bugbee at all? He just recently partnered with Athena, because they wanted him to do a college level study comparison of his "formula" vs. there's.
I bring up Bruce, because he has done extensive studies for NASA on nutrients, and your numbers are pretty high in a couple areas.
Here's a link to latest info...

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cpl_nutrients

 

[Terppalooza]

You don't see many people posting their numbers.. because I'm sure alot of people have no real idea.
Have you listened to Bruce Bugbee at all? He just recently partnered with Athena, because they wanted him to do a college level study comparison of his "formula" vs. there's.
I bring up Bruce, because he has done extensive studies for NASA on nutrients, and your numbers are pretty high in a couple areas.
Here's a link to latest info...

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cpl_nutrients

Yes I know bugbee. I also read all the study's I could. I also asked Harley smith about his advice and he said I should up the iron. He recommends staying around 5ppm iron. But mostly the recipie is based on my own experience, and Alot of good recent study on growing cannabis.

 

[Ca++]

Bugbee doesn't think cannabis suffers from iron deficiency. I think it's in the above video, where he talks about using a pH of 6.5 in any media. Though the link says 6.3
0.4ppm sounds low, but not untypical of bottle feeds. I was using 0.6ppm as I wanted to add a little more zinc. 5ppm sounds very high. I doubt you see any issues with iron, even using high P. You might need to watch for copper problems though.

The 150N with 30P is difficult to achieve using bottles. It's only grow feed likely to separate them so far, an even then, you probably need more N from pH correction. Then you have to add K to your grow. It's a situation I have been in for some time. I end up with 50P usually.

Bill has not logged in since November. I think we need a separate thread pulling together what we know about Bugbee's feeds.

 

[Tomatoesonly]

Bugbee doesn't think cannabis suffers from iron deficiency. I think it's in the above video, where he talks about using a pH of 6.5 in any media. Though the link says 6.3
0.4ppm sounds low, but not untypical of bottle feeds. I was using 0.6ppm as I wanted to add a little more zinc. 5ppm sounds very high. I doubt you see any issues with iron, even using high P. You might need to watch for copper problems though.

The 150N with 30P is difficult to achieve using bottles. It's only grow feed likely to separate them so far, an even then, you probably need more N from pH correction. Then you have to add K to your grow. It's a situation I have been in for some time. I end up with 50P usually.

Bill has not logged in since November. I think we need a separate thread pulling together what we know about Bugbee's feeds.

BB says somewhere in that video that there focus is on minimalist, no excess nutrients. So I'm sure he has never done salt stressing. Alot of his work is for NASA and that is basically how do you grow plants with ZERO left overs. And you're right about hitting some of those numbers. He uses direct chems for each element. No General Hydro in that dudes lab.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

You guys are splitting hairs.

Having said that if you can't grow incredible weed from DG's Foliage Pro, something's wrong. https://dyna-gro.com/product/foliage-pro/

16 elements. Never had a problem with leaf chlorosis. Chlorosis usually occurs with the use of high P "bloom" foods. The P is antagonistic to trace elements.

And no, there is no need to switch to a "bloom" food. That's a bunch of marketing hype.

For 40 years or so I've used Foliage Pro on you name it - turf and a vineyard as a foliar spray, orchids, veggies, cannabis, etc.

Uncle Ben

 

[Tomatoesonly]

You guys are splitting hairs.

Having said that if you can't grow incredible weed from DG's Foliage Pro, something's wrong. https://dyna-gro.com/product/foliage-pro/

View attachment 18862943

16 elements.

And no, there is no need to switch to a "bloom" food. That's a bunch of marketing hype.

For 40 years or so I've used Foliage Pro on you name it - turf and a vineyard as a foliar spray, orchids, veggies, cannabis, etc.

Uncle Ben

Damn that's wild. I ran across some of this and passed up on it because it just looked like one of those houseplant fertilizer companies you see EVERYWHERE. But they actually have cannabis as a studied plant with a formula for them. May have to take a second look!!

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Damn that's wild. I ran across some of this and passed up on it because it just looked like one of those houseplant fertilizer companies you see EVERYWHERE. But they actually have cannabis as a studied plant with a formula for them. May have to take a second look!!

Why, because they mention cannabis? Again, that's just another marketing gimmick..... like over priced "organic and and natural" produce sold at your grocer.

Cannabis is not some needy or special plant. It's actually nothing more than a flowering foliage plant, just another dicot like a tomato. Treat it as such.

"The high nitrate to ammoniacal nitrogen ratio acts to produce shorter internodal spacing for stronger stems."

By the way, this is partially true and is scripted to appeal to cannabis growers. P is what induces long internodes especially under low light conditions. Peters even makes a no P food for winter greenhouse applications.

Tip - do not let DG foods freeze. They will drop pre-cips.

UB

 

[Ca++]

"The high nitrate to ammoniacal nitrogen ratio acts to produce shorter internodal spacing for stronger stems."
UB

I wouldn't call that a high ratio an no2:nh4 2:1
I'm going to bet most people on a thread like this, are hydro growers. These ratio's are too low for hydro. Where the ammonia isn't so much a source of N, as it is a source of problems.

While not in canna, tests have shown oil increases moving from 30% to 10% in perlite/moss mixes.

The major terpene hydrocarbons found in extract of E. purpurea with the best growth parameters were germacrene D (51%), myrcene (15%), α-pinene (12%), β-caryophyllene (11%), and 1-Pentadecene (4.4%), respectively. The percentages of these terpene hydrocarbons were increased by increasing of NO3−/NH4+ ratio.

I just checked Myrcene in the flowers, and it jumped 50%, while in the leaves, just 20%
a-pinene 45% increase in flowers, 33% in leaves.
These are serious responses, but I'm unsure what e.purpurea is. The potpourri plant?
google says it's a cone plant. That seems highly relevant lol

 

[Ca++]

I found a ratio study in cannabis

Frontiers | Nitrogen Source Matters: High NH4/NO3 Ratio Reduces Cannabinoids, Terpenoids, and Yield in Medical Cannabis

The N form supplied to the plant, ammonium (NH4+) or nitrate (NO3–), is a major factor determining the impact of N nutrition on plant function and metabolic ...

www.frontiersin.org

I just scanned over the first paragraph. Anything over 30% nh4 was summed up as possibly fatal. At 50% nh4, they saw a 43% flower weight reduction. I didn't read on, to look at oil production, but feel the case is quite clear.

We can't really do 100% no3 sourced nitrogen. Not unless we want to take on more water. Glassy effects and puffy appearance. Distortion such as curling. I'm going to add green pooling from my own experience, using calcium nitrate (it's no3) and nitric acic to correct moderate alkalinity.

Typically, in hydro, 10% nh4 is seen. Soil feeds will tend to be higher, where the nitrogen cycle is in effect. A biological system where the nh4 becomes no3, basically (very basically)

I was quite happy to scatter slow release ferts outdoor this year, and walk away. Some of the reasoning behind what we do, is really much deeper than I ever want to get. Just recognising the N ratio issues is all we really need know. Without reading about cone plants.
Who knew there was a plant, specifically for cones?

Just getting a few ready, to go out.

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

I found a ratio study in cannabis

Frontiers | Nitrogen Source Matters: High NH4/NO3 Ratio Reduces Cannabinoids, Terpenoids, and Yield in Medical Cannabis

The N form supplied to the plant, ammonium (NH4+) or nitrate (NO3–), is a major factor determining the impact of N nutrition on plant function and metabolic ...

www.frontiersin.org

I just scanned over the first paragraph. Anything over 30% nh4 was summed up as possibly fatal. At 50% nh4, they saw a 43% flower weight reduction. I didn't read on, to look at oil production, but feel the case is quite clear.

We can't really do 100% no3 sourced nitrogen. Not unless we want to take on more water. Glassy effects and puffy appearance. Distortion such as curling. I'm going to add green pooling from my own experience, using calcium nitrate (it's no3) and nitric acic to correct moderate alkalinity.

Typically, in hydro, 10% nh4 is seen. Soil feeds will tend to be higher, where the nitrogen cycle is in effect. A biological system where the nh4 becomes no3, basically (very basically)

I was quite happy to scatter slow release ferts outdoor this year, and walk away. Some of the reasoning behind what we do, is really much deeper than I ever want to get. Just recognising the N ratio issues is all we really need know. Without reading about cone plants.
Who knew there was a plant, specifically for cones?

Just getting a few ready, to go out.

Got a pack of freebies with a bong recently. Still haven't tried them. Those look very neatly packed. How did you do it? Mine came with a tamping rod for each empty hemp cone.

 

[Ca++]

Got a pack of freebies with a bong recently. Still haven't tried them. Those look very neatly packed. How did you do it? Mine came with a tamping rod for each empty hemp cone.

Ahh, sorry to disappoint. It's just an internet image.

Edited off topic post away

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Ahh, sorry to disappoint. It's just an internet image. I have not filled an empty tube, since smuggling spliffs in as cigarettes. To do that, we made a mix on the table. My usual brand was a bit dry, and over-packed. While the bran leader was a bit damper, so didn't dust so much as you tamped it down. I would fill in 3/4 inch, then tamp it. Any deeper fill, and it wouldn't settle well. The bit you were pressing on, becoming firm before it was sunk properly. Leaving you having to use a thin tamper, to pass the lump, and work below it. My bar was something like 2.5mm. So I could work the fill down evenly. The mix never went it evenly enough, to just use a bar as wide as the tube. With the 2.5mm bar, you would press in the middle, to see just how it was compacting. A bit like filling your outside bin with bags. You kinda chuck in what you have, then position it.

That was some memory lane walk that was.

OK thanks. I've used a dollar bill to roll joints since the 60's. You get a tactical feel that nothing can touch.

 

[marwachine]

Your main goal is to develop and maintain/retain plenty of root and foliar mass until harvest. The rest will follow - that's just what plants do.

Does this apply to all kinds of plants? I'm watching a couple videos about tomatoes and most people say to maintain just one branch if you're going for quality.

I'm also located in the tropics btw. Should I grow differently compared to people living in the west?

 

[Old Uncle Ben]

Does this apply to all kinds of plants? I'm watching a couple videos about tomatoes and most people say to maintain just one branch if you're going for quality.

I'm also located in the tropics btw. Should I grow differently compared to people living in the west?

Ah yes, grandma's myth - remove the "suckers". Doesn't make botanical sense to remove the very unit that produces the end result you're after whether that be fruit or flower.

You should figure out what works best for you and ignore all the advice. All you need to know in this biz is what makes a plant tick. Research soil chemistry and plant nutrition, then you'll empower yourself to make the right decisions for your particular garden and style.

It's all about the roots - https://mycotopia.net/HTFaq/1321.htm

Good luck,
UB

 

[kingape]

Hi!

So I've been using Jacks 3-2-1 since a long time and haven't had to pH the water(RO).

However now the pH is drifting back up to 7.

I have stopped using Epsom Salt and have been adding Cal-Mag, that's the only change from my previous cycle. Is that the reason?