Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Avinash.miles]

I have CDM 860W lamps going in the same room as HPS thouies and there's no doubting the 860W is brighter. It's not the age of the HPS lamps, either; mine are all just a few weeks old.

Here's the caveat; our eyeballs suck at measuring actual light output. We get fooled many ways. I believe the CDM lamps will provide better spectrum and more PPf than HPS thouies, and save me 15% off my power bill for a bonus. That belief and my eyeballs are not enough, so I'll run side by sides until I feel comfortable giving an opinion.

my 1k w bulbs are pretty damn new also, hortilux super hps and ushio's both touted as some of the "best" hps 1kw out there by hydro stores.
AND
our eyes are about the WORST instrument for measuring the intensity of these lites, not only are they imprecise but it's very damaging to look at them, the longer you inspect the lites the less good your eyes are at looking at anything.
yhea, don't look at your bright ass lights,
im high as a kite so i'll shut up now

 

[Ttystikk]

NEVER look at lighting filaments while they're running, unless you're wearing welder's glasses. Wear UVA/UVB blocking shades the rest of the time you're in a grow room. UV damage is cumulative.

I don't trust all the light measuring toys, my best measuring tool is mama marijuana; if she likes it, stays. She don't like it, it goes bye bye!

 

[redclover]

The 860 gave me sun burn. Forearm burn also. The core of bulb is only 7"! That isn't good coverage for bare vert unless you stack or use light mover. I plan on supplementing with deep red LED. Best of both worlds.

 

[Ttystikk]

The 860 gave me sun burn. Forearm burn also. The core of bulb is only 7"! That isn't good coverage for bare vert unless you stack or use light mover. I plan on supplementing with deep red LED. Best of both worlds.

That's all good news. Not sure about the 7" statistic- what are you getting at with that?

The 860W CDM lamps follow exactly the same inverse square law driven light intensity curve as every other light out there, save those with lenses. This means that a single lamp source for vertical will create a spherical light distribution pattern, one that can be challenging to deal with in a vertical environment. It's challenging in flatlander grows too, but nobody notices, they just add more watts. And then more AC...

Three ways to deal with this; bend your trellis, run a shorter vertical height or stack bulbs. I chose that last option and my resultant floor to ceiling height Super Silos enjoy an extremely uniform light distribution pattern inside, especially when compared to square flatlander canopy grows. This uniformity of light distribution is one of the keys to improved yields with vertical growing.

I'm very interested in seeing the results of your deep red experiments! I'd like to add some UVB to my setup, so I'm liking into that now.

 

[OIBI]

What ballasts are you guy's running with the 860's? Are there any that are considered optimal? Or are they all about the same?

 

[Jhhnn]

What ballasts are you guy's running with the 860's? Are there any that are considered optimal? Or are they all about the same?

Old school magnetic MH or switchable ballasts are what the 860's need, not high-freq electronics at all. All Philips CMH lamps need low frequency ballasts, even the 315 which uses a special low-freq electronic ballast.

 

[OIBI]

Old school magnetic MH or switchable ballasts are what the 860's need, not high-freq electronics at all. All Philips CMH lamps need low frequency ballasts, even the 315 which uses a special low-freq electronic ballast.

Are there any clear leaders in terms of performance, or are they all about the same? Specific makes/models I mean.

Thanks.

 

[Jhhnn]

Are there any clear leaders in terms of performance, or are they all about the same? Specific makes/models I mean.

Thanks.

I suspect there are some quality differences in terms of longevity of the components. The market is dominated by imported hardware. Even those are near bulletproof for years. If I could point you at one with American made components, I would.

Something like this gives you max flexibility-

http://www.virtualsunhydroponics.com/crop-king-1000w-hps-mh-magnetic-ballast-120-240v

Just a random google pick.

Performance-wise, I suspect there's little difference among them.

With the luxor hood you mention elsewhere, there are very few 1000w lamps you couldn't run. Note that the overall height of the Luxor is quite large, OK if you have the vertical clearance. I don't, so I have no experience with them.

 

[rives]

If I was in the market for a new magnetic, I would probably head toward the ballast kits. That is the only way that I know of that you are going to find quality components. Look for copper-wound transformers and name-brand capacitors. Philips or Advance (different names, same product) would probably be my first choice. Howard used to have a pretty good reputation, as did Sola.

Kits are much cheaper, but then you need to house them, get power in and out, add fuse protection, etc. Ultimately, as Jhhnn said, there probably isn't a hell of a lot of difference.

 

[Ttystikk]

I'm currently running mine on Sun system switchable convertible ballasts. I've had the caps inspected recently, but other than that, they're as much as eight years old, running most of that duration. They light the CDM lamps just fine.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm currently running mine on Sun system switchable convertible ballasts. I've had the caps inspected recently, but other than that, they're as much as eight years old, running most of that duration. They light the CDM lamps just fine.

I recently had to put a new cap in my ancient/ bought used sun system 10. Figuring it out, I learned an easy way to test for failing caps using a kill-a-watt meter- check the PF, or power factor when the system is warmed up & running- it should be .97-.98.

Other good info, as well-

http://www.parsource.com/resources/articles/correcting-problems-hps-lamps

I checked my equally ancient/ used spare HTG ballast, too. Still good, made in 2005.

 

[Drek]

Well, a low power factor could be caused by different things in the circuit apart from the capacitor alone. Most capacitors (or other electronic components) will have a tolerance percentage that the value of the component is supposed to fall within. A good way to check for a failing cap is by checking it's capacitance and/or visually checking it for bulging or oil leakage.

I check and replace cap's all the time in my job. Best ballast for 860 is pulse start MH imo. 860w CDM isn't easy to start and pulse is better I think with an included ignitor.

Philips Advance pulse-start 1000w magnetic ballast sounds good.

 

[redclover]

The core of the 860s are only 7" and emit the good light roughly 15 degrees more out. I used the old fashion hand meter test. Very weak lighting and big dead zones near top and bottom. They have the MH shape...not the nice long 1k HPS shape. It's very cool on a light mover. Even cooler with magenta kessils angling down.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well, a low power factor could be caused by different things in the circuit apart from the capacitor alone. Most capacitors (or other electronic components) will have a tolerance percentage that the value of the component is supposed to fall within. A good way to check for a failing cap is by checking it's capacitance and/or visually checking it for bulging or oil leakage.

I check and replace cap's all the time in my job. Best ballast for 860 is pulse start MH imo. 860w CDM isn't easy to start and pulse is better I think with an included ignitor.

Philips Advance pulse-start 1000w magnetic ballast sounds good.

In a more complex circuit, I think you'd be right, that a low power factor might not indicate a weak capacitor. The PF measurement diagnostic assumes a working circuit between the transformer, capacitor & lamp. The ignitor, if present, is out of the circuit once the lamp fires. With the transformer & the lamp, they're basically good or they're not with no in between. OTOH, reduced capacitor value can allow the circuit to function but only at lower efficiency which is observable in the PF reading. Or so it seems to me.

I'd agree that a pulse start MH ballast would be optimal for CMH lamps, but the switchable ballasts seem to work fine having no operational ignitor in the MH mode. Aged lamps that have seen a lot of service may be more difficult to fire, dunno.

It'll be interesting to see what results Miles & Ttystikk achieve with the 860 CMH vs the usual 1000 HPS. I can't run one because of height/cooling/odor control issues. Well, maybe if I were willing to abandon my lazy man's style of just letting 'em grow, scrog under a vertical lamp air cooled reflector or re-conceptualize entirely. If their results are truly exceptional, I may just want to do that. For now, I really like the results under my dual arc plantmax lamp.

 

[Drek]

In a more complex circuit, I think you'd be right, that a low power factor might not indicate a weak capacitor. The PF measurement diagnostic assumes a working circuit between the transformer, capacitor & lamp. The ignitor, if present, is out of the circuit once the lamp fires. With the transformer & the lamp, they're basically good or they're not with no in between. OTOH, reduced capacitor value can allow the circuit to function but only at lower efficiency which is observable in the PF reading. Or so it seems to me.

I'd agree that a pulse start MH ballast would be optimal for CMH lamps, but the switchable ballasts seem to work fine having no operational ignitor in the MH mode. Aged lamps that have seen a lot of service may be more difficult to fire, dunno.

It'll be interesting to see what results Miles & Ttystikk achieve with the 860 CMH vs the usual 1000 HPS. I can't run one because of height/cooling/odor control issues. Well, maybe if I were willing to abandon my lazy man's style of just letting 'em grow, scrog under a vertical lamp air cooled reflector or re-conceptualize entirely. If their results are truly exceptional, I may just want to do that. For now, I really like the results under my dual arc plantmax lamp.

Hey JH. Even in a simple circuit, anything can affect the power factor. Power factor is just a ratio of real vs apparent(inductive) power, but in theory all components contribute. HID is a simple circuit...so I know what you mean. Capacitor's should be checked periodically to be sure their value is within tolerance, or with something like the in-circuit device you pointed out. Both tests are even better.

There are so many reasons, for me, to use CDM...I don't think I could ever go back to the horrible CRI of usual HPS. I don't care if the CRI is for me or the plant or whatever. I can't see an 860w full-spectrum ceramic metal halide at 3700k growing crappy plants.

I predict moderate to high success.

 

[OIBI]

There are so many reasons, for me, to use CDM...I don't think I could ever go back to the horrible CRI of usual HPS. I don't care if the CRI is for the me or the plant or whatever. I can't see an 860w full-spectrum ceramic metal halide at 3700k growing crappy plants.

I predict moderate to high success.

Do you have an opinion on the 860w CDM compared to some of the new double end HPS lamps?

 

[Ttystikk]

The core of the 860s are only 7" and emit the good light roughly 15 degrees more out. I used the old fashion hand meter test. Very weak lighting and big dead zones near top and bottom. They have the MH shape...not the nice long 1k HPS shape. It's very cool on a light mover. Even cooler with magenta kessils angling down.

I stack them inside my Super Silo; one hanging high and one mounted low on a purpose built stand, and the light in between is obviously plenty for vigorous healthy growth and bud development in the middle. I'll watch for a band of relative darkness based on your comments, but I think my silo's geometry will handle this.

The reason I'm reasonably confident is that the bulbs are 30" from the trellis in every direction- at least, perpendicular. As the angle increases, so does distance, allowing the pattern from both bulbs to cover for one another.

 

[Drek]

Do you have an opinion on the 860w CDM compared to some of the new double end HPS lamps?

They're both new technologies in lighting that are more efficient than their predecessors. The DE are nice lamps at 2100k; the last I read they were being removed from the consumer market tho. So if that happens, it'll be tougher to get them and the price will go up. But still I prefer CDM tho(or MH) at 3-4k...just cause I like the better visibility, and I prefer the ingredients in the arc.

I have a box of 860w lamps. I've only fired a few to check them, but haven't used them per say. Logic tells me it's an excellent source of light for plant growth start to finish. CDM860 is at 3700k and has a good amount of red. I like being able to see the plants without having to turn things on or off, etc. I like good visibility to monitor their health closely.

I've grown veg through repro, with great results, with 4k 400w CDM. I can't see 860w and slightly more red not working out.

 

[Ttystikk]

I had an upgrade decision to make. I looked at buying digital ballasts and upgrading my HPS. I looked at buying Gavita DE technology. I was disappointed with both options based on cost and spectrum.

I looked into 315W CDM, but it was also prohibitively expensive, and would require a complete rework of my approach to growing, as the output intensity is so much lower than kilowatt class lamps.

When I heard about the 860W CDM, I thought that it sounded great- but how much are the fancy ballasts they need? Vertical orientation only, protected so it's bare bulb safe, these seemed too good to be true- at least at a price point I could afford.

Then I discovered the magical ballast needed for these lamps is a cheap ass magnetic MH thouie? I have a dozen of those lying around cleverly disguised as HPS ballasts- but they had the switch!

The bulbs are a Franklin each- but if they're better than HPS they'll be worth it. The HPS I'm running head to head against is Plantmax, one of the best budget bulbs.

So far, everything I can see about these is showing the plants love them! It's going to be a few months before I can say anything definitive, but they sure fit in seamlessly to the vertical bare bulb environment here.

 

[non]

i've gone through this long ass thread but either missed or forgotten about it, but has anyone run the same cut under cmh and hps and what were the differences between the two?