Those require electronic ballasts or special pulse start mag ballasts. They will not fire on standard MH probe start mag ballasts.
Just sayin', so peeps won't order 'em w/o the right stuff to go with 'em.
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Those require electronic ballasts or special pulse start mag ballasts. They will not fire on standard MH probe start mag ballasts.
Just sayin', so peeps won't order 'em w/o the right stuff to go with 'em.
Hi J. Can you tell me if these bulbs need a special MH ballast or will the standard do, and will they work on 220v system (in Oz)?
i see everyone here is looking for the full spectrum lighting and some have convinced themselves that CMH is the answer i am just finishing my home landscaping then / roof solar panels and getting my grow room set up
in next couple months with all Bull shit set aside 10,000 watts of hps 4000 watts of MH as well 1500 watts of plasma inbetween the mix
i see here everyone is trying to get the fullest spectrum when plasma lighting has the fullest spectrum by far of any current lighting technology available today and that is why there expensive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnHglynTIdE
in next couple months with all Bull shit set aside 10,000 watts of hps 4000 watts of MH as well 1500 watts of plasma inbetween the mix
i see here everyone is trying to get the fullest spectrum when plasma lighting has the fullest spectrum by far of any current lighting technology available today and that is why there expensive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnHglynTIdE
G'day DrF.
Full spectrum just makes sense to me, HPS alone for blooming just doesn't, which is what everbody where I am is using. I don't know if CMH or CDM (I know there's a difference, just not exactly what) will do it but I'm willing to drop my money on it to find out - certainly the numbers look good to my admittedly uneducated eye.
Trouble is nothing is really giving me the big 'YES' and I just don't know enough of the tech yet to work it all out alone so I'm just looking and waiting as the pieces fall into place, as they always do, eventually.
BTW, your pix don't show in your linked thread, only glanced through it yet. I don't know anything about plasma, can you link me to the rundown? The sound in the youtube vid is too muffled for me to make out, my rock 'n roadie days catching up.
Full spectrum just makes sense to me, HPS alone for blooming just doesn't, which is what everbody where I am is using. I don't know if CMH or CDM (I know there's a difference, just not exactly what) will do it but I'm willing to drop my money on it to find out - certainly the numbers look good to my admittedly uneducated eye.
Trouble is nothing is really giving me the big 'YES' and I just don't know enough of the tech yet to work it all out alone so I'm just looking and waiting as the pieces fall into place, as they always do, eventually.
BTW, your pix don't show in your linked thread, only glanced through it yet. I don't know anything about plasma, can you link me to the rundown? The sound in the youtube vid is too muffled for me to make out, my rock 'n roadie days catching up.
They run on standard probe or pulse start magnetic 400w MH ballasts, not high frequency electronic ballasts.
http://www.ballastkit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1230
It's a direct replacement for standard 400w MH lamps. Just screw it in, fire it up.
From what I've read, they're a little harder to start than standard probe start MH lamps, so your gear has to be up to snuff. Mine is ancient, from salvage, works fine.
I'm certainly no expert. I just studied up a bit, wanted to try 'em. I'm also a bit of a sucker for a good deal, which is why I bought a case of 6 on eBay. It'll be awhile before I can have much more of an opinion than that.
CDM & CMH are just different ways of saying the same thing-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_discharge_metal-halide_lamp
The 315w agro 3100k is the best, and only ceramic made, specifically for the horticultural market. Every other ceramic currently made is for commercial lighting applications. This includes the 860w (also known as the 900w) which burns mostly green. I am not saying that plants will not grow under other ceramics. They do decent with these other bulbs, but the agro out performs all of them by a whole lot and this is that bulb that is creating all these unbelievable claims. The thing hurting these amazing bulbs are companies that are selling growers the wrong lamp and giving them false hopes (manycompanies are doing this). The final product ends up very leafy under the normal 3k or the 4k "day-light" (or that 860w). What sets the agro apart is the very high UV (increased resin), high PPF per watt, and the HUGE spike in red (increasing overall yields) that you will not see on the other lamps.
LargePrime
Member
Philips might disagree?
315w T9 942
UV A 7.76 mW/cm2
UV B 0.01 mW/cm2
UV C 0.06 mW/cm2
315W T9 930
UV A 3.45 mW/cm2
UV B 0.01 mW/cm2
UV C 0.03 mW/cm2
315w Agro
UV A 4.65 mW/cm2
UV B 0.02 mW/cm2
UV C 0.02 mW/cm2
The T9 4200 has significantly more UV. A T9 agro would be interesting.
Meh. T9's aren't open fixture rated. Put 'em behind glass & the uv is basically gone, anyway.
HPS puts a lot of energy into the near IR spectrum, where plants can't use it. The open fixture rated 315 CMH puts that energy into the visible spectrum a lot better-
http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf
The usual spectral charts cut off at a point where we can't see that.
HPS puts a lot of energy into the near IR spectrum, where plants can't use it. The open fixture rated 315 CMH puts that energy into the visible spectrum a lot better-
http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf
The usual spectral charts cut off at a point where we can't see that.
The T9 930 seems to do a pretty good job as Jack Frost. I have used both the 930s and the Agro, and it would require a side-by-side to quantify the difference. I've got a bunch of the 930's from prior to the release of the Agro (and recently bought several more), and I haven't seen enough difference to cause me to change before running them out.
Tsi Fly, day 65, 930 lamp -
Sweet Tooth, day 65, Agro lamp -
Tsi Fly, day 65, 930 lamp -
Sweet Tooth, day 65, Agro lamp -
Last edited:
D
Drek
Day 39 of 12/12. Durban Poison. Retro 400. 3 different Pheno's. Lower branches of plants were seeded at day 30. Seeds, by weight, are pretty damn expensive these days, so I like some seeds. 
Nutes are original line of Earth Juice Grow, Bloom and Catalyst with regular CalMag and Nitrozyme supplements. Amendments were also added to the soil such as Alfalfa and Kelp meal.
A big part of what led me into the CMH club was the work Rives and Azeotrope did early on (which I read a while back), and a bunch of other documented grows with similar results/observations, so thank you guys for your time and effort. All things being equal, I'm happy. Will see where it ends up.
Durban Poison Male
Nutes are original line of Earth Juice Grow, Bloom and Catalyst with regular CalMag and Nitrozyme supplements. Amendments were also added to the soil such as Alfalfa and Kelp meal.A big part of what led me into the CMH club was the work Rives and Azeotrope did early on (which I read a while back), and a bunch of other documented grows with similar results/observations, so thank you guys for your time and effort. All things being equal, I'm happy. Will see where it ends up.
Durban Poison Male
Last edited:
We can not get accurate reading from our tests with multiple variables. If you run different strains you can not tell an accurate difference in results. You would have to run identical everything, with the only difference being the lights.
I have done extensive testing like this with both of these and other bulbs (such as the 942 and the 860w). Including tests with quality par meters, a spectrometer and UVA/UVB readers. I have also run these against LEDs and I am working with many people who are doing their own tests right now.
The outcome is always that the 930, and the 942 (especially the 942) finish leafier compared to the agro. This decreases yield. The huge difference between these three bulbs is the big spike in red after 650 on the spectrometer. Helping to give the overall CRI of the agro an edge over the 930 and increases density/yeild. These seem like small differences but they are not.
Don't take my word for it, Philips states exactly what the agro is designed for:
CDM ELITE 315W/T12/AGRO
Philips Elite Agro 315W T12 Lamp provides a compact and efficient metal halide solution for the horticulture market. This lamp, combined with the efficient ballast, provides outstanding growth light performance over the life of the product.
The description for the 3k:
CDM T9 ELITE 315W/930/E
The Philips MasterColor Elite MW system offers an unrivalled level of light quality and performance. The lamp's sparkling white light creates a natural ambience and really brings out the best in all different types of colors. In addition, the high efficiency of the lamp and ballast together means reduced energy use and a lower cost of ownership compared to a 400W Metal Halide HID system.
This is a description for a commercial lighting application. The agro was specifically designed for the horticultural market by a multi billion dollar company. They are the ones to listen to, not the distributors that a pushing the cheapest bulbs just to get your money.
Yep, I understand all of that and actually agree with most of it.
However, my point was that I bought 930's before the Agro was even introduced, and still have a bunch of them on the shelf. I bought them for $20 each, and have found them to work quite well. The Agro's should work much better considering that they were commanding a $500/each price tag for quite some time. That's why I bought an Agro when the price dropped out of the stratosphere - to see if there was a big enough difference to warrant not using my remaining lamps and go with all Agro, or to supplement the 930s with some 660nm red leds.
My experience has shown me that, as a small personal grower, the differences are pretty subtle. We'll see shortly how this last run turns out, it is drying right now. The Agro made some really dense buds, but the 930 appears to be right there with it. As far as being leafier, I'm not seeing it. The following pictures are both Tsi Fly, taken a day apart.
Tsi Fly, Day 65, 930 -
Tsi Fly, Day 66, Agro -
However, my point was that I bought 930's before the Agro was even introduced, and still have a bunch of them on the shelf. I bought them for $20 each, and have found them to work quite well. The Agro's should work much better considering that they were commanding a $500/each price tag for quite some time. That's why I bought an Agro when the price dropped out of the stratosphere - to see if there was a big enough difference to warrant not using my remaining lamps and go with all Agro, or to supplement the 930s with some 660nm red leds.
My experience has shown me that, as a small personal grower, the differences are pretty subtle. We'll see shortly how this last run turns out, it is drying right now. The Agro made some really dense buds, but the 930 appears to be right there with it. As far as being leafier, I'm not seeing it. The following pictures are both Tsi Fly, taken a day apart.
Tsi Fly, Day 65, 930 -
Tsi Fly, Day 66, Agro -
D
Drek
Do you have a stake in the Agro somehow? Just wondering.
So light drastically changes a plants genetic expression? I've seen lots of grows that say the exact opposite of that notion. Light doesn't change genetic expression (imo), it only changes how much of the light is there for the plant to use, while expressing itself. That's a whole big difference in thought process. I've personally seen plenty of grows with a 6k halide that resulted in tight, slightly less robust, non-leafy plants.
For example, these leafy buds grown with a 4k commercial light not designed for Agro use.
And what's the fascination with yield anyway? Some of the highest yielding plants produce crappy, uninspiring smoke. All the yield notion does is create arguments.
Some of my favorite plants of all are whispy, exotic, powerful landraces.
Sry, just woke up. Need a coffee...
- Note: This is a borrowed pic from another site.
Last edited:
D
Drek
That's great! You grow for different reasons than I do. I'm totally cool with that, and I hope you make millions.
But, I more or less, politely disagree.
I've been around (and closely involved with) a professional (money making) farm for over 10 years, fwiw. Spectrum may cause slight variations in genetic disposition, but not as drastic as it's been made out to be.
Example? Plant elongation due to an inadequate spectrum.
Last edited:
Then I would say that if you are interested in running CMH, the Agro should be your first choice. My choices are dictated by other things, and I would do things substantially differently if I was trying to grow at a commercial level.
As it is, I can yield far more in a single run than I can possibly use or discretely give away in a year. I like to grow, it's been my on-again, off-again hobby for 30+ years, and trying to soak out the last possible gram is simply not important to me. Having spent thousands of dollars on lighting over the years, and hundreds of hours of labor building up variations of everything from HPS and MH (all industrial lighting, long before any horticultural variants existed) and LEDs, I am currently pretty fascinated with seeing what I can get from some $20 lamps and $30 ballasts from eBay. I think that the quality is fairly evident from my pictures, and my yields are the highest that they have ever been even while not bothering to maximize the number of plants in the tent.
Oh, and I couldn't care less about trying to scientifically delineate the differences between the available choices. I don't have the time, the inclination, or the space to do lab experiments. For me, it is enough to go by the impressions of long experience. If someone else chooses to, great - I'll be happy to read about their testing, and if something there strikes my interest, I'll utilize it.
RikkiTikkiTavi
Member
what cdm lamp would you guys suggest to compliment the gavita 1000w DE?
i'm thinking of doing a hybrid set up, with the gavita's mounted high overhead for overlap, and having the 315 CDM bulbs in a vertical configuration underneath.
i'm thinking of doing a hybrid set up, with the gavita's mounted high overhead for overlap, and having the 315 CDM bulbs in a vertical configuration underneath.
I hear ya. My story is entirely different but the goals are the same. I'd been away from the scene entirely for 25 years when A64 passed. Add retirement & the blessings of the spouse to fill in the rest. As it's unfolded, I think I might like the whole indoor growing process better than smoking the stuff. As you say, it's not too difficult to create an embarrassment of riches.
It's an interesting technical challenge, particularly when mindful of costs & the cooling issues I've faced in the space I have. I also have unusual stealth requirements. Well, or at least I see it that way.
I really like the idea that I may be able to nearly maintain 1000w yield at 660-630w. I don't need the yield I get, but I want to have 6 plant mixed grows, too.
The price of the 315 hardware keeps me away, at least for now. OTOH, If I can get good results in veg & early flower with my bargain 330, I may be looking for a dual bulb hood, try a pair as my main grow.
The charts in the Cycloptics link were a real eye-opener for me. Over half the output from a HPS goes to heat in the near infrared. the 315 agro puts almost half that, 24.8% of total output, back into the visible range where plants can use it. That's huge.
