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Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

O

overmyhead

Member
does anyone know what prevents one from viewing the end of a thread or is it an illusion that it's showing 211 pages but I cant get past 208?

Edit: The last three pages must be a mirage?
 
FreezerBoy

FreezerBoy

Was blind but now IC Puckbunny in Training
Veteran
I certainly haven't deleted anything here.

More likely it's a glitch we see here from time to time. For reasons I can't explain, the page count and the number of pages sometimes don't match up. FWIW my display says this is page 209 of 209 pages.

If you see it again, shoot me a PM and I'll talk to Skip about it. Though he may well say don't worry.

.... D'oh! .....

Looks like you were right.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=111327&highlight=page
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=122511&highlight=page

Learn something new every day. Still, I'm seeing 209 of 209 ... hmmm.
 
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W

whatissixbynine

FreezerBoy said:
I certainly haven't deleted anything here.

More likely it's a glitch we see here from time to time. For reasons I can't explain, the page count and the number of pages sometimes don't match up. FWIW my display says this is page 209 of 209 pages.

If you see it again, shoot me a PM and I'll talk to Skip about it. Though he may well say don't worry.

.... D'oh! .....

Looks like you were right.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=111327&highlight=page
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=122511&highlight=page

Learn something new every day. Still, I'm seeing 209 of 209 ... hmmm.
Click to expand...

\o/

Guess i'm not TOTALLY useless, at least not for yesterday lol

And here's todays:

picture.php
 
simba

simba

Sleeping Dragon
the page count is off due to pics links going funk and edits to larger pics (site grabs aka screen-shots etc)

ya there has been a few (under 5) places that have few bucks cheaper than atsl.. none of them preburn.. nor into RD new stuff we are wanting.or warranty procedures etc...
same as getting off brand in the long run it not greatest plan..originators wont be around for new stuff..
I don't condone being over or under priced..online and retail have 2 sets or pricing.
online Under pricing (under 50) is worse than over pricing.(60+) (the shops that are undercutting are like the wallmarts)
i say a retail customer at a retail Horti shop should pay 65-70 for one of these..for a few reasons..they had it in stock. paid for insurance to have there.. etc.. and again its in stock..
(side note to that pricing they are making like nothing.. they are just after the volume.. not good in long run when local shops be gone.. ) BTW Philips MSRP is 70-90 Depending who you talk to there.. below 50 is totaly wall mart Style business LMFAO>.

in the end go where you feel best..
 
W

whatissixbynine

ok back to skew on numbers and facts.
http://advancedtechlighting.com/mhced17.htm
you can see yourself, that on the 50-150w cmh page ad advt:
4kvs3k.jpg

cdmvshps.JPG


note how much the cmh 3k looks like hps..

note how 100% of lights the same wattage and power, have vastly different areas on the graph?

That, sirs, and madams, is called skew.

If these were truly comparable, the total area under the line [the colored areas of the graph] would be equal between equal comparisons.

and before you say it, i know the 3k and 4k probably do not put out the *exact same* wattage/power/lumen/lux/wtfever, but 50% less??


and finally, truly comparable means we MUST know the 'scale'.
 
simba

simba

Sleeping Dragon
that is not skewed. that would only mean we dont know what 100 means.. for each graph..
when i think skewed i think NM ranges are messed aswell as how much at any given nm range but mainly the nm ranges being messed with.

explain something.. to me.
why does a 400 cdm seems brighter than a 400mh or 400hps yet hps and mh have more rated lumens.. (IE some of whats out there we have to look past some..)

and again if you look at the chem makeup of the 3k vs 4k you will see that it has less of the metal halideish in it and more for the red sodium Etc..(exact recipe i dont know).

and again 1 watt at 650nm has more usable energy to a plant than 10 watts at 600nm (exact wattage dif is in the air)
so again as long as it has True Full spd the way we like (current cmh 4k) and has what we have seen from imperical evidence..

I would like to see 3rd party released but thats slow..

side note we have spd and full info well as much as public release..
eye and SP and others dont release all data and sun P hides mfr data, part number, doesnt release spd and charges Crazy $$ yet no hard qs into them..
Dont get me wrong i love seing cmh disected but you cant skew the facts or go after the minimalistic unknowns as it has shown itself..

again huge point why is cmh 4k apare brighter to us than 400 hps or mh..(its the same to plant. )

the whole skewed to deceive argument would have been great.. 2 years ago before cmh proved it grows with Great results.. (IE would have stoped peeps from trying and actully seeing the results) however at this point the skewed arguments has less merit as the lamp has been tried and proven itself to everyone here and every other thread..and grow ops..
 
A

asde

Member
simba said:
and again 1 watt at 650nm has more usable energy to a plant than 10 watts at 600nm
Click to expand...

oh my god. go read some books dude, even if 600 would be totally ignored by chlorophylls, alone the fluorescence would allow a better rating... dont forget that the dimensions we talk about are very limited, so is the absorption range (considering any reflections from walls/reflector/whatever wont get to the leave again)
not everything biologically/physically is as simple as cutting some numbers from random graphs, there are a dozens of other factors beside the stupid din / tazewa measurements, holy shit there are new researches almost every day its hard to keep up with all the new stuff but i can for sure tell that what you said isnt true at all.. maybe you believe too much what random led sellers claim who doesnt know deep shit about physics / biology at all..
 
A

asde

Member
sorry simba, we had some small fight before i remember
but honestly, i dont wanna fight you in any way but you are wrong again - see it as help to get motivated to educate yourself more, nothing which can hurt you!

and no this isnt about cmh but about some things spread trough the growers community (even professionals been fooled a lot, check forums)

to come back to cmh:
the 3k cmh may lack 0.5-2% of overall physicall light output compared to 4k but the loss of energy in blue light for the 4k is too high, the energy the 3k puts out is way better for your plants without even mentioning the advantage of signal functions - you cant make up 10% with 2%
 
simba

simba

Sleeping Dragon
asde,
I like that you said this.. its kinda funny its being said to me..
not everything biologically/physically is as simple as cutting some numbers from random graphs.. IE the philips charts being disected now (real funny that the horti graphs arent being dissected in such a way within that standing up even though none of us have the ability to release the Actual numbers from philips for each lamp itself)
I do seem to remember and its been posted here there is a xls breakdown of the philips lamp.. I havent compared it to a non released yet..)

What i said was the super short version and in keeping that in mind 1 watt at 650nm would be more efficiently used by the plant than 10 watts at 600nm (give or take on each end)

and to"but i can for sure tell that what you said isnt true at all.. maybe you believe too much what random led sellers claim who doesnt know deep shit about physics / biology at all.."

Leds are not where they need to be IMPHO.. although they do have there place depending application (environment/plant.. etc)
Letus and other low light plants would be fine.. especially with the zoned lighting you get from leds.. (that's another down side to them they are very zoned)
with that said that was an example only..

so i what is the current against argument we are having.. looks like im being atact now not the cmh...
my skills are not in Question.. i could be the dumbest rock in the box.. the lamp has spoken for itself and any valid argument Exact not broad argument has been or currently overcoming..
IE>> saying spd is skewed and that's why the cmh is so bad is the same as a philabuster or other totally off the wall debate killer..

ill give ya between the cdm 10 watt and cdm400 watt 3k, 4k the spd does change a bit.. however its relitive to the graph yes the 100 is currently an unknown.. (Stated by philips openly)

but lets be real here these are HID so even at the lowest point in the chart and seing the lamp itself you can tell there is allot of energy..
and i say this again.. hps, mh lumen rating is higher than cmh.. yet cmh apears brighter then either (ill give ya the mh and hps you can see it peaks in blue or yellow and its a bright point however you can see allot more using the cmh vs the hps or mh)
why i dont like lumens/par etc ratings.(they are not as acurate as we think untill you go deeper)
with that said.. lumens = more light we see however you can see thats untrue when comparing cmh vs hps or mh.. as the total output is not truley rated to what we see ie the lamp can put out more energy at x nm than we can take in.. and it may technicly have more lumens but not to us.. same with the plants the par watts are not matched to each plant it would be a bit hard..
Sorry typing on micro keybord.. ..so really keeping it short
Ya its hard to understand what im saying.. its because i have to shorten it otherwise im 4 pages long..



take a read here.. and tell me how hps is Superior to cmh when we all can agree from the Charts NM ranges even skewed they be ;)

http://ncr101.montana.edu/Light1994Conf/5_10_MacLennan/MacLennan text.htm
Summary
Our literature search and researchers' comments* suggest an optimal plant growth spectral energy distribution for photosynthesis and most photomorphogenic processes: 10% of the energy in the blue region of the spectrum, preferably at about 440 to 460 nanometers, and 90% of the energy in the red region of the spectrum with approximately 75% in the region between 600 and 700 nanometers, and less than 25% of the red energy in the far-red from 700 to 800 nanometers. UV radiation below 360 nanometers wavelength has been shown to have deleterious affects on plant morphology, and infrared radiation past 800 nanometers doesn't contribute to plant growth and can be harmful at high levels (McCree 1984).
We also learned photosynthetic radiation, the number of photons between 400 and 700 nanometers, expressed in micro-moles, is a good initial metric for the output of plant growth bulbs. This metric is simple, widely used, and sufficiently close to the well known McCree (1972) relative quantum yield curve as to be quite useful.

and if you take a deeper look you will see ppf/par/mol etc are the best we have but should only be used as a starting point for initial reference.. not to dissect a lamp..unless you are matching to the exact absorption of a specific plant
 
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simba

simba

Sleeping Dragon
and i recomend reading this.

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/pdf/biotronic-cucumbers.pdf
2400 watts of MH vs 1kw sulfur lamp (and that sulfur lamp sucked way GREEN its output was primarly green/blue/red/orange/yelow) can cmh is Green/orange/red/yellow/green/blue (cmh is based on visual from charts above. sulfur one is pulled from below..)
and if you look at eye blue its green/yellow/blue/orange/red.. (we all can agree if we have one to choose its cmh over eye blue) and its tougted as
-Revolutionizes lighting for plant growth!
-Exclusive Iwasaki (EYE) chemistry provides levels of Red, Blue and Green spectral energy to optimize plant growth and yield.
-Designed to provide a fully balanced light spectrum that replicates natural sunlight.
-Used professionally in plant physiological research, and biotechnology/pharmacology industries.

and here
http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/pdf/GrowingEdge96.pdf
 
W

whatissixbynine

now those, sir, are real numbers.

Now to figure which lamp is better you would need to know the absorption efficiency for each band for the target plant.

Then add up how much energy available is absorbed.

Then sum that absorption pattern, larger area == more efficient.


i believe the cmh are indeed better than the hps, which is why its in my roadmap for the next few weeks if possible. the point was that the graphs even under the exact same scale, only tell us the light potential. As you said yourself:

What i said was the super short version and in keeping that in mind 1 watt at 650nm would be more efficiently used by the plant than 10 watts at 600nm (give or take on each end)
 
homebrew420

homebrew420

Member
Do all these numbers really matter to most growers, no not really, Not to say it is unimportant, but obviously you guys are geeking out, which I personally enjoy. We can tell simply that there is much more usable light given off by a cmh over pretty much every other lamp out there. That being said, I have grown all my plants under 400w MH, then under a 600w hps, far better, then under CMH, better still. Here is the thing for me. At 95,000 lumens the 600 was ROCKING it. At approx 34,000 lumens the CMH was holding its own. For about a 1/3 of the light it is performing almost as well. The proof is in the growth rates. The light is so much more people friendly in terms of true color rendering, obviously. Making it easier to diagnose issues that may arise. These are a no brainer for me. Like Dj Short says, your goal is to replicate as best we can the spectrum of the sun. These are the best. I am running two of these , just got them a few wekks ago, already in love, the response was immediate.

And a side note about AdvanceTech lighting, whom I purchased my set up from, they SUCK!!!! I waited nearly a month for those F'ing ballasts. Mr. Orton did not once answer the phone when I called. Took him weeks to respond to emails, never returning calls, just left me hanging. The lamps were shipped very promptly, I will give him that. They were in stock. The ballasts were not, but he didn't tell me this until after 2.5 weeks I began to get irritated and wrote him a number of emails. I will never buy a ballast from them again. The ballasts also run extremely HOT. Cannot even tought them. and they where giving off a peculiar odor, from the resin heating up I would imagine. I am a master electrician, I have installed a great deal of ballasts in my day. I would maybe try elsewhere for these. Just my experience...

Peace
 
simba

simba

Sleeping Dragon
Homebrew.

ya they have had a few shipping issues recently..they cant keep the Howard 250, 400 ballasts in stock..and yes there communication has been off.. They have a follow me so customers can reach them any time of day..and that doesnt work right recently (should get rid of that) (there email is tied to the same company... )

they would have dropped howard but they are a good ballast and Made in the states.. (side not howards date codes are wacky)
I know they have advance brand avail in local stock.
i would ask give them a lil break last month was hetic for all..
enough with defending adv tech...

as far as how hot they get.. i have a advance and howard and venture and few others and they are all within like 5 degrees of each other.. (forgot where i put the the txt i tagged them in)
all hid ballasts get Extremely hot..
if it is/where overheating i would warranty it out if i where you..
all mag core ballasts cwa ballasts are H rated IE 180 C (Thats Hot and a standard)
few dif cos ballasts showing they all get Hot..

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/so400-71c-211.htm
UL TEMPERATURE RATINGS
Insulation Class H (180°C)

http://www.universalballast.com/techSupport/trouble_shooting/HID_tech_guide.html
Core & Coil Ballasts, Insulation system: Class H 180 degree’s
C, maximum coil temp: 165 degrees C (measured by change of resistance method this is same on all.. if u use probe its 150-165 as there is heat loss to the probe)

http://www.gelighting.com/na/busine...oads/198217_HID_Ballast_Application_Guide.pdf
Core & Coil Ballasts and
Potted Core and Coil Ballasts
Insulation: Class 180°C
Maximum coil temperature: 165°C (measured by change of resistance method)

http://www.advance.philips.com/eCatalog/out/5065241721.pdf
UL TEMPERATURE RATINGS
Insulation Class H (180°C)
Coil Temperature Code 1029

and the whoping N rated from advance for hot locations..
http://ehidballasts.com/documents/uploads/literature/HI-4030-R01.pdf
200c
also shows temp codes.. etc..
but in short a hid 400 hps will get up to 180C At its hottest.

from last link
“Class H”,
this rating permits a maximum ballast coil
hot spot temperature, during operation, of
180°C. In some installations, typically associated
with higher lamp wattages,

so in closing 180c is what you can expect on a hot day from your ballast.. No ballast runs cool.. NONE thats fact jack.. Sorry if that sounds mean joking style

oh the only way to get a ballast core to 10 degrees above room temp is to add a cpu cooler to it.. and it keeps it nice and cool.. hell i have a 400 hps advance in my shed right now and its 140F and its 40 degrees in there.been on for days constantly. (just came in)


oh forgot ohewll. i was going to compare the input/vs/ output to get the lost effeciancy that could expalin why one may be little hotter but nothing enough that u could feel the difference from one ballast to other now a temp sensor would..
oh and to that..t5ho ballasts get up to 90c

180 degrees Celsius = 356 degrees Fahrenheit (dont be touching your ballast core)
90 degrees Celsius = 194 degrees Fahrenheit (dont be touching your T5HO ballast)
Now that is there Hottest point while still operating and they dont typically get that hot unless warm environment or other issues (generaly)

i may not spit things out easy to understand but i know my stuff asde..Lighting/horticulture IS MY DRUG
 
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