Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[messn'n'gommin']

Champ call horizon hydroponics at 616-791-1664 in the afternoon. they are in michigan in the central time zone and they open at 11am. they can fill you in and get them for you. they are similar to phillips in that they are ceramic metal bulbs but a little variance in that they have 4 or 5 bulbs that vary in k temperatures. they are available from 3K to 10K. the 10K is used the last weeks of flowering to max out resin production as it is heavy with ultra violet emission. if you wanted to get just one bulb for all around use get the 3K or 5K which is classified as full spectrum. yes they run cooler than hps or regular mh bulbs
obw

As far as I can tell, Sunpulse doesn't use an SPD chart, per se. They do have a chart telling me what bulb is best for what phase the plant is in. Basically, they list a PSMH (pulse start) and a HPMH (high pressure) as being two different types of bulbs. I am not sure if it is just a confused advertising department, a lack of respect for their customers intelligence, or outright deception, but, when going to their "Retail Customer" page, I get a list, with pics, of the pulse start metal halide bulbs that says "pulse start MH or HPMH" with no option for the HPMH CMH style bulbs. They appear to be trying to blend the descriptions of both bulbs into one type of bulb, confusing the issue. The PSMH is made in wattages up to and including 1000w and the CMH style is only made up to 400w (requiring a core and coil ballast). I say CMH style because of the visual of the internals of the bulb, while the PSMH is an obvious metal halide. At any rate, at about twice the cost of the Phillips CMH and what I consider suspicious behavior on the part of their advertising department, I think I'll pass. But, I would thank you sir for looking out for the community.

Namaste, mess

 

[minds_I]

Hello all,

I have been running my 250Wcmh for 85 days now and have two harvests grown completely grown under the cmh.

I have been using the same strains for the past two years and have a good idea what to expect in terms of harvest. Well I thought I had anyway.

I must report that my yields have been lighter since using this bulb.

That said, the bag appeal is better in some respects. The flavor is about the same, however, in my experience I have never been able to distinquish the sublte flavors others talk about so take that for whats its worth.

Anyway, perhaps I was expecting more from this bulb then its able to deliver.

I am goin gto finish to two more harevts with this bulb in the next 40 days (perpetual grow) and will make a determination then.

On the up side, I have killer summers here and running the AC is expensive so the cooler running temp of the bulb offers an alternative to running a HPS at warmer temps. This is in regards to yields/temp/bulb gain.

Anyway, this is just my observations and not an endorsment of the bulb in either a favorable or unfavorable light (pardon the pun).

minds_I

 

[vindiesel]

man, this thread is sick! so is there anything higher than 400 available now or what? last i checked no. i just upped to a 400 from 250 over 6 plants in a tent w/ NO rise in temps. CMH off the chain, see NO reason ever to use HPS other than wanting a higher wattage not available in CMH. 400 don't feel much warmer on hand than 250 either. plants appreciate it.
CMH=lush growth.












bubba under T5s

 

[simba]

Maggie,
1. Is Phillips committed to keeping the 400W CMH in production for the long term?
Yes, Infact the Retro-White CMH AKA CDM400S51 is a recent edition to philips lineup.Philips has allot invested in CMH technology.
More than any other company WOLD Wide
(they have the most Products in Current product Future production from lamps to ballasts and even NEW styles of both bulb ballast combination)
AKA Philips Will be Promoting CMH harder in the near future..

2. I'm going to start using a CMH bulb in the vertical position. Are there any known health risks to either eyes or skin? If yes (to eyes), will wearing regular sunglasses be enough to allow me to (safely) work in the grow room for extended periods?
Yes, CMH Replicates FULL SPD at High Intensity
We Fully recommend Even Cheap sunglasses especially in a vertical setup where you see the arc tube no mater where you look in the room (in a horizontal setup you can at least never look up.. (but still recommended)
It has the same effect of Snow Blindness<this relates to any HID lamp especially CMH and MH.)
yet another reason we don't like any thing over 400 watt in CMH its BLINDING (Seen it Dont LIke it One Bit)


3. Has Phillips indicated a PAR rating for the 400W bulb?
No they haven't, And honestly Par, PUR, PPF its all bogus..
With that said its somewhat useful for what we have had (HPS, MH)
but when you really break it down it rates 400-700nm of that 500-600nm very little is absorbed
id personally like a new PAR rating to be accepted that actually compares the % absorbed at each Nm and range that to the output of the lamps..
but within that it would have to be some what generic as some plants absorb light differently...
(even if they cut the 500-600nm range by half id be allot happier)

now lets go over the other posts i missed..
ill point out the issues to going past 400 watt in CMH technology.
1. going past 400 watt arc tube has shown a new style arc tube or Reinforced internally arc tube is required wich is not out there
the seals and weak points from Pressure, Heat and Adhesives prevent it currently. This is Not from one manufacture this is from all of the respected ones. as far as Full commercial release viability.
Sylvanias arc tube actuality holds promise however it still has issues.
..that a Japanese company has somewhat gotten better with that there spd is way off than what we want, it so requires a large Enclosed Fixture Cause they DO BLOW, and its $$$)

Philips actuality has a 300 watt CMH that produces more lumens than the current 400 watt CMH (its spd SUCKS for us)and requires a Totaly new ballast that they Developed with all approval ratings.
they are coming out with variants after its in the market for a few Qtr's

i personally would love a 500 watt version of the CDM400S51 that for single or multi light setups would be prime without having to lower or rais lights.. just hang high and leave alone.. and it looks like its coming true while sucking down less juice YA!!!..
(they are releasing Several SPD formats one of wich will be the Current 4k From Philips Minus the Green spikes (well less there)

on a side note the current cmhs rated at 600-1000 watt, (even there 100-400 whats the life, lumen maintenance, and actual spd.. (by a third party or themselves if they the size of Phlips or sylvania with a rep to self say.)
(on that there 100-400 cmh infringe on Philips patents so hard its not funny.. why buy a Copy at twice the price when you know they dont have the same good salts phlips has.. ( i have yet to see a copy lamp work better than original) they say open fixture rated yet Philips is the only one that has the patent on protected without the use of of a Quartz sleeve around the arc tube..
CMH can be extremely Violent, High heat and hold it and have force when they rupture..

if that lamp blows what certification does it have proving its open fixture rated whos paying to rebuild..
IM not being mean i just want all to know the saftey risks its not a regular lamp)
i say this not to help sales of phlips lamps rather Soley on a saftey aspect.. i think alll know philips cmh has low PM especialy vs copies and there higher prices..
also support the companies (sylvania, philips) who are actually developing legit Certified products that we want.. its the same with Electronic ballasts even on hps get a Advance brand (AKA philips) its ul listed ballast what Horti Electronic ballasts are UL Listed (not that UL is great but its needed for a Insurance check)

as far as cmh and ballasts we are just lucky they work on MHP and HPS ballasts 50-400 (ed17,ed18p) units
the new philips 300 watt cmh Requires a special ballast designed for it for many reasons.. One is protection i mention below.. other is to obtain long life.. and maintenance. they change output on the fly according to readings it gets.. from the bulb (basic stuff really)..
so any thing over 400 watt in cmh you better get a Matched ballast.one of philips par lamps that in any other wattage or bulb shape wouldn't require a electronic ballast but this one needs a internally thermal overload protection modual wich CAN NOT be added to a Magnetic Core. Another words cmh stay within specs..


cmh prefers 50-240hz no more no less and within that 144hz is Optimal
all magnetic ballasts are 50 or 60hz depending on US or EU
most electronic HPS and HID ballasts are 440hz-440Khz Depending on who makes it and application.
cmh electronic ballasts are made from 60-240hz primarily 144-240hz Lower hz are lab units
60hz is basically a flash rate of 60 flash's per second the higher the hz the faster the flash cmh looses its Arc at 270Hz
there is no Ansi or ul listed ballast for HID over 400 watts.
a 1kw cmh would require a electronic ballast matched to it specifly in my opinion.. id want the ballast to have internal protection that when it senses a Rupture (it can) it will shut down to prevent it)
cmh is very scary when you go out of its capabilities.. its like the Roadrunner and the rocket no way.. LOL>


i hope i answer the Qs at hand whiteout sounding mean (being short to point while long..

 

[rasputen]

Maggie,
1. Is Phillips committed to keeping the 400W CMH in production for the long term?

i hope i answer the Qs at hand whiteout sounding mean (being short to point while long..

snip snip snip


CMH FACT PAGE
http://advancedtechlighting.com/cmhfact3.htm
email them if you cant read it they have embeded PDF pages in there site

Damn Simba!

I learned more from this last post than I ever knew before about CMH bulbs.
Great resource , I sure am thankful for the info. The CMH bulbs are awsome for photography enought to justify their use as far as I am concerned. Can't wait for more plant friendly low power options. Spread them out and keep them cool. I always have concerns for safety and 1K bulbs don't let me relax too good. I am always trying to save some KW's for the hot tub !

Not to mention your concerns about the burning envelope of CMH mass. Yikes, got to go check the smokealarm.
(very well enclosed HydroFarm 6"/w tempered glass hoods)

(yep.....stoned again)

 

[whodair]

is this a commercial?

is this a commercial?

is there a bulb mfg rep in this thread? or is supposed to be just consumers? if cmh claims are true, we'd all be nuts wasting money on inferior hps. they're still making hps, and better than ever. for some reason the vast majority of people tend not to buy in to cmh

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Many people didn't want anything to do with the automobile either. They felt much more secure atop their trusty steed. The auto was simply a novelty, and no way would it replace the tried and true horse.

And I would much rather be involved with a product thread with someone who has half a clue, rather than read rounds and rounds by no-nothings with huge ego's and low test scores.

I suggest you point out the claims that aren't true, and work from there....

 

[FreezerBoy]

They felt much more secure atop their trusty steed.

And some of us are still pissed off!

Don't even get me started on sound in the movies ...

 

[ShoeboxSherman]

And some of us are still pissed off!

Don't even get me started on sound in the movies ...

Or indoor plumbing....

 

[jwm]

I"ve used these bulbs (Philips 400w CMH) in both the horizontal configuration and the vertical w/ great success. Great bulbs! I apologize, I didn't read all the posts, too lengthy, but they run off HPS ballasts.

 

[whodair]

hi

the reason im asking if there is a mfg rep in the thread, is to determine if someone has a financial motive for promoting the bulb. just tell me you'd like me to try your product upfront, but dont secretly try to convince me. im ok w being marketed, and i have no prob w someone making a living. good luck!

my understanding of cmh from the presenter

better spectrum
lower heat
more lumens
cost effective

and a good argument i heard

too much spectrum=not neccessary
lower yeilds w nice quality by the experienced grower

cmh sounds like a nice replacement for mh, not hps.

WTF is an automobile, some kind of horseless carriage? and indoor plumbing? I wish, but never gonna happen...

or should i jump on the cmh bandwagon before being accused of reluctance to change, and remaining outdated.

 

[simba]

cmh sounds like a nice replacement for mh, not hps.
a simple way to say full spd is the better option for hps and mh or combo is because its very well Accepted that MH and HPS together produces the best harvest no matter what th plant is. its just that most get into it only want to buy one lamp and ballast (its only since cmh and Socalled Combo HPS/MH bulbs that u could do this)
also its very well accepted outdoor plants (Sun) do better than indoor (HPS, MH, OR HPS/MH combo) (main reason plants can take all nm ranges cmh/sun puts more efficiently than the main spikes in yellow/red (HPS) and blue/green (MH) yes mh and hps do work but its almost because of brute force rather than optimally putting out less energy and providing same results (not saying cmh puts out less energy that was just expression to explain)

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Seems rechargeables are fine provided they've actually been charged.

Actually.... you'll probably get better results by using alkaline if they recommend it.

Seeing as it's a fairly cheap device, it'll most likely have fewer circuits for dealing with non-standard power supply. Rechargeable batteries are mostly 1.3V... Not 1.5 like Alkaline.

It will most definitely work fine for a while but at some point you're going to have issues with it getting fried in some way.

Most digital cameras actually have a menu setting for alkaline or Ni-Mh batteries.

 

[BlindDate]

Yeah...Like yesterday I went into Walmart to by some Led Zepplin 8 tracks and the girl said they do not sell them anylonger. The first girl I asked didn't even know what it was. She kept talking about some MP3 thingy. Now since I can't get them I'll have to remove the 8 track deck from my Dodge Charger and install a cassette deck or something.
Sucks!

 

[Guest]

So i take it that plants internodes spacing are closer using CMH's ?

 

[sarek]

I have a 1000w bulb, maybe 5K running next to hortilux. About the same plant response in my rough estimation. Bit of difference but notherg radically different. The color is pleasant to look at tho. I do not know exactly what I bought as box was sorta unlabelled.

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

bongwater

i cant find the 1000 cmh by sun pulse

http://sunpulseusa.com/items/Buy-Bulbs/list.htm

Scroll to the bottom. Avail in 3k 4k. 6.4k and 10k color temps! made for Electronic/Digital Ballasts only...

 

[Cotyledons]

FreedomFGHTR,

Those bulbs you linked to are psmh,pulse start metal halide, not cmh, ceramic metal halide.

 

[simba]

Sup all.

as far as the eye hortilux Blue looking simular to LLT& SP lamps EYE Blue Vary in SPD Dramiticly from 400-1,000 watt

as far as the LLT and SP lamps.. 400-1,000 watts..
you need to demand the SPD and an un alterted one..
after hanging with a buddy come to find out she has a ILT900 so we tested..i cant post any thing against there lamps im not a certified lab but its not right..

i can show you few lamps with the same Kelvin rating yet there SPD is not the same or even Close..
Optimal light output for growing is needed not kelvin or CRI alone..

any company selling horti lamps should show SPD
if not its only because the spd will hurt there sales..
the meters are cheap, a general lighting designer has one of these in her bag of goodies for work so why cant the LLT and SP have one.

again i and others dont care where you buy your CMH from (vendor wise)
But Dont Deviate from THE PHILIPS MASTER COLOR line of lamps they are the only ones in the world with the spd we want..
(even if you buy from local or online shop its there spd..)

really guys 3~ 400 watt cmh's are far better than one high wattage lamp
its well documented multi lamps or light movers make a big difference even when using same wattage (Light mover in same space as non moving but moving)

I have yet to see any of my "freinds" switch back to 600,1,000 Watt lamps after using multi 400 watt cmh setups..

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

FreedomFGHTR,

Those bulbs you linked to are psmh,pulse start metal halide, not cmh, ceramic metal halide.

Yeah I am aware of that. I was merely pointing out a source for the sun pulse lamps that another poster asked about. Find it interesting that sun pulse has designed their lamps specifically for Electronic/Digital Ballasts more info from them can be had here...
http://www.sunpulselamps.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5

I just ordered two of the phillps mastercolor 400w bulbs (thanks to this thread!!!! .

I have a 600W light with a digital ballast and was looking for bulb options (a bluer burning bulb for my 600w since the CMH's put out so much red) for it and I stumbled upon them so I figured I would help someone else out. But as I understand it the technology behind the pulse start mh's and the ceramics is similar yet slightly different ie one being an HPS retro and the other a Native Digital Lamp. I've heard more than one horror story about electronic/digital ballasts, and maybe having a lamp designed for their use might actually help with some of those problems...

Yeah the lack of a spectrum chart is why I won't be buying a sunpulse lamp though. Looks like the sunmaster 600w cool delux