Can't Figure Out Plant Issues

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

i think if your water's ph was truly adjusted it wouldn't creep up while you're watering. i would prefer to know what the pH is BEFORE you adjust. it sounds like your water is also highly alkaline which explains why something such as citric acid may take a little while of waiting to see if it creeps up as it isn't as strong as other ph down products.

when you irrigate with water that not just a high pH, but also alkaline, it has a lot of calcium carbonate or bicarbonates in it so with each watering, you add more lime to the soil. that is why you're noticing the 4-6 weeks rhythm of symptoms.

i would suggest getting a soil test to see what your soil's true pH is because pens and hardware store testers, i was told are not an accurate way to test the pH for organic soil. i have contaminants in my water which forces me to use RO water for my plants.

you may want to start over with fresh soil as it is difficult to leach lime or bicarbonates from soil and start using RO or adjusting the pH and waiting a bit longer till it doesn't creep up.

I thought I waited long enough. I usually wait around 5-7 minutes after adjusting to let it all mix. My soil test on November 16 was 6.8pH. I also use reverse osmosis water.

 

[RockinRobot]

minerals in a chem form such as calcium nitrate Ca(NO3)2 are the SAME nitrate as in blood meal compost or worm coatings. it's a nitrate NO3 or ammonium nitrate NH4 such as in ammonium nitrate. the only difference is his they are bonded in the carbon the carbon is just a delivery system. a carrier mechaimsn . the mineral salts are not different. . REGARDLESS of source for the roots to absorb eg itrogen . the nitrogen MUST dissolve into the solution . whether is is calcium nitrate or blood meal the nitrate must be water soluble.
if a medium had too much water soluble nutrient ( any of them) they will burn or lock up other Minerals. the CEC IR CATION EXCHANGE CAPACITY of carbon ( 5he vanderwall forces just line carbon filters) will hold a reasonable amount of excess minerals acting as a buffer but only so much . this will do it whether the feed is a refined chemical or a organic source.

Yes but the OP isn't using any of this. The OP is in organic soil with only water and A little Cal/Mag. Not going to get any nutrient salt buildup from that. Your whole argument is wrong.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

Plants grown in coco coir need a pH level ranging from 5.5 to 6.3 during veg. (Max). If you drop in the upper 5s slowly your problems will go away. I run 5.5 - 5.8 during veg growth and 6.0 - 6.3 during bloom. High alkalinity can cause a lock out because the receptor sites are blocked. The organic nutrients are more soluble with a lower pH. Also bacteria colonizing can be minimized with an acidic pH.

Ya I was pHing to 6.5 but now have lowered my target to 6.2. May adjust lower in veg and see if that helps. Thats where I'm noticing the most issues. Once they go into bloom they love life.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

LOL, That looks just like a ph issue IMO. Looks like your in coco?. That's requires a lower PH of 5.8-6.0.. Also your PH should not be changing that fast. I use a ph of 6.5 it will stay that way for about 4 hrs before it starts to drop again. If you using air to mix that also makes the PH change faster. I use a bubbler in my veg drum, In 24 hrs the PH drops to 4.8.


I use in veg

HP PRO MIX

PBP GROW Nutrients

450PPM

PH 6.5
I don't water until the pots are dry. It cant take 2-3 days



Flower

Hydroponic research Dirty Nutrient
1.2ec

ph 6.5
Same feeding routine. If the pots are wet don't feed. After about 2 weeks they start drinking everyday.

Yes I am in Coco dominant living soil. I am using a massive air pump to mix my water. It is an SST20 Blower. I think I just need to wait longer to let my water settle to the correct pH.

 

[thailer]

I thought I waited long enough. I usually wait around 5-7 minutes after adjusting to let it all mix. My soil test on November 16 was 6.8pH. I also use reverse osmosis water.

your pH shouldn't rise while you are watering, first off but how are you checking your pH while you are watering? injecting air into the water like using a bubbler and air pump can raise pH temporarily.

which lab did your soil test?

so you use your tap water and RO? seems like just switching to RO would be easier than adjusting ph all the time.

 

[MrBungle]

They look over watered to me

 

[VerdantGreen]

if they perk up when moved to the flower room, you need to look at what changes.....


i would check the canopy temps in the veg room, maybe too high...could be causing the clawing.. also if the light is stronger in the bloom room then maybe they can take a higher nute level but it is too much for them in the veg room. T5 lights have to be quite close to the plants to work well.


personally i prefer peat to coco with organics, because the coco often tries to decompose which ties up nutrients and changes pH.



also, you say you ran these for years with no problems.. what did you change ?




VG

 

[Hammerhead]

cheoking runoff is standard procedure for any system.
plants do not use minerals evenly. not overwatering means every mineral not used is buying up interfering with proper uptake of the rest.
runoff is 5p easy not 4o check. it takes no effort and allows 5ou to notice issues before you see it In the leaf. once you see s leaf issue it is already to late . now you are just putting on bandaid. it better to avoid issues with proper maintenance.

I'm OK with never needing to check runoff. Maybe your a hydro grower? Maybe that standard SOP for that?. I'm not. I grow perpetual in soil indoor. Before that outdoor when I still had brown hair lol. The only issues I ever see is when my Probes fail. I don't use any automation that warns me like the kids have today. Sometimes probes cal good but are still bad. IMO 99% of issues are caused by grower error or PH related. Checking runoff is a tool for new growers IMO.. Ive never needed to check runoff to fix my plants. I'd hope after 50 years nobody would need to.

.

Yes I am in Coco dominant living soil. I am using a massive air pump to mix my water. It is an SST20 Blower. I think I just need to wait longer to let my water settle to the correct pH.

Your PH should be stable while feeding. I don't see any change for at least 4 hrs. I also use a air stone in the drum with a pump to keep it circulating. For coco use 5.8ph. The PH charts you find on the net work perfectly for both coco/soil. This chart works fine.

 

[nohnsmith1010]

ph

ph

I'm OK with never needing to check runoff. Maybe your a hydro grower? Maybe that standard SOP for that?. I'm not. I grow perpetual in soil indoor. Before that outdoor when I still had brown hair lol. The only issues I ever see is when my Probes fail. I don't use any automation that warns me like the kids have today. Sometimes probes cal good but are still bad. IMO 99% of issues are caused by grower error or PH related. Checking runoff is a tool for new growers IMO.. Ive never needed to check runoff to fix my plants. I'd hope after 50 years nobody would need to. View Image.



Your PH should be stable while feeding. I don't see any change for at least 4 hrs. I also use a air stone in the drum with a pump to keep it circulating. For coco use 5.8ph. The PH charts you find on the net work perfectly for both coco/soil. This chart works fine.

these are just standard procedures taught in any agricultural program.
testing overflow takes all of 2 sec. .
there is no prize given for not testing any more than driving a car and not looking at fuel gauge . it takes 2 sec .and standard procedure . no reason to tell a grower not to do it. can provide several in depth chapters on it .
also organics are 4he exact same minerals as chemical pure. same chemical processes if absorption. a nitrate NO3 in calcium nitrate is the same nitrate NO3 in compost. it's just a carrier system. the minerals both are absorbed the same way . nitrogen must be water soluble and dissolve in the nutrient solution so be absorbed but the root. the carbon acts as a magnet absorbing excess minerals as a buffer but only to a point. about 15 % ish ? .
orgincs can have the same negative effects as chemical pure mineral forms. there is a myth about organics that elevates them beyond what they are.
they they lose their GREEN status the minute they are trucked and bagged for retail sale j
they also will probably have a greater diversity of trace minerals allowing for pathways ways to develop. more flavonoids and aromatic compounds and nutritional viability ( for vegetables) .
a good basic 12 minerals formula used properly and a compost tea can have some effect but better nutritional control
but is it inaccurate ro think organic nutrients are different form chemically pure . they are identical in form and absorption process.

 

[mountainfarmer1]

Have you looked at your soil through a microscope? Thats where I would start asap. especially being in live beds. An electronic microscope connected to a laptop or phone can reveal many things in your medium. The reason I mention this is caused I had similar issues in coco. Turns out it was a microscopic nematode that lived off the root system. I fought them for 1.5 years and lost. I had to removed everything I could, sterilize everything I couldn't and continue. It may sound unlikely but your symptoms look like what I was dealing with. Good-luck

 

[Hammerhead]

these are just standard procedures taught in any agricultural program.
testing overflow takes all of 2 sec. .
there is no prize given for not testing any more than driving a car and not looking at fuel gauge . it takes 2 sec .and standard procedure . no reason to tell a grower not to do it. can provide several in depth chapters on it .
also organics are 4he exact same minerals as chemical pure. same chemical processes if absorption. a nitrate NO3 in calcium nitrate is the same nitrate NO3 in compost. it's just a carrier system. the minerals both are absorbed the same way . nitrogen must be water soluble and dissolve in the nutrient solution so be absorbed but the root. the carbon acts as a magnet absorbing excess minerals as a buffer but only to a point. about 15 % ish ? .
orgincs can have the same negative effects as chemical pure mineral forms. there is a myth about organics that elevates them beyond what they are.
they they lose their GREEN status the minute they are trucked and bagged for retail sale j
they also will probably have a greater diversity of trace minerals allowing for pathways ways to develop. more flavonoids and aromatic compounds and nutritional viability ( for vegetables) .
a good basic 12 minerals formula used properly and a compost tea can have some effect but better nutritional control
but is it inaccurate ro think organic nutrients are different form chemically pure . they are identical in form and absorption process.

Dude no clue why your arguing with me. I'm not the person with issues. What I breed/grow speaks for itself. Its not like your gonna change my way of growing lol. His Plants with issues are in beds, its not like he can measure the runoff.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

your pH shouldn't rise while you are watering, first off but how are you checking your pH while you are watering? injecting air into the water like using a bubbler and air pump can raise pH temporarily.

which lab did your soil test?

so you use your tap water and RO? seems like just switching to RO would be easier than adjusting ph all the time.

I am checking pH after I water about 20-30 plants and by then it sometimes creeps up.

New Age Laboratories does all my SAP and Soil analysis.

I do use RO water and have UV lights.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

if they perk up when moved to the flower room, you need to look at what changes.....


i would check the canopy temps in the veg room, maybe too high...could be causing the clawing.. also if the light is stronger in the bloom room then maybe they can take a higher nute level but it is too much for them in the veg room. T5 lights have to be quite close to the plants to work well.


personally i prefer peat to coco with organics, because the coco often tries to decompose which ties up nutrients and changes pH.


also, you say you ran these for years with no problems.. what did you change ?




VG

I changed from a standard MH to T5 LED fixtures in Veg, and from standard HPS to DE HPS in bloom, and injecting CO2 into the room. Thats pretty much the only changes that I have done.

I gave them a nice foliar of TM7 and a top dress of Happy Frog All Purpose Fertilzer yesterday. So we will see how they react in the next couple of days.

Here is before and after pics. The yellow pic shows the plant the day it was transplanted from Veg 5g pot into the raised beds in bloom. That plant got a mineral foliar and fresh soil. So this leads me to believe its either A the food, or B the lights LED-->DE HPS. The pictures were taken 7 days apart.

 

[slownickel]

SAP analysis is right up there with Voodoo.

What type "soil" analysis are your running?

Coco comes loaded with sodium, always. Soak some, test the EC, let it soak a day, test again.

Need to buffer Coco with Ca and like several have said, pH is an issue.

I like to move pH up and down weekly, that way I assure even uptake.

Post your soil analysis.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

SAP analysis is right up there with Voodoo.

What type "soil" analysis are your running?

Coco comes loaded with sodium, always. Soak some, test the EC, let it soak a day, test again.

Need to buffer Coco with Ca and like several have said, pH is an issue.

I like to move pH up and down weekly, that way I assure even uptake.

Post your soil analysis.

I am using 6 Coast Soil. I have corrected the pH issue and all waterings are now 6.0- 6.2pH

 

[slownickel]

Any idea what procedure this was?

Did you just grab a handful from the bag and send it to the lab? Or is this from active beds? Ideally you would sift out the fines of new material, right out of the bagand not send in big stuff, most labs dry and then grind the samples... not good.

If those numbers were run using Melich 3 and prepared correctly, you are way short on Ca, you K is high especially in combination with all that sodium. All the petioles purple? I would bet they all are...

You need B, Cu and Mn. You are toxic in Fe and Al.

I would rinse this mix heavily to get rid of some of that K and most importantly Na, as you don't have any space chemically to add more without getting on a lot of Ca quickly. Gyp will work.

Not that hard to fix.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

Any idea what procedure this was?

Did you just grab a handful from the bag and send it to the lab? Or is this from active beds? Ideally you would sift out the fines of new material, right out of the bagand not send in big stuff, most labs dry and then grind the samples... not good.

If those numbers were run using Melich 3 and prepared correctly, you are way short on Ca, you K is high especially in combination with all that sodium. All the petioles purple? I would bet they all are...

You need B, Cu and Mn. You are toxic in Fe and Al.

I would rinse this mix heavily to get rid of some of that K and most importantly Na, as you don't have any space chemically to add more without getting on a lot of Ca quickly. Gyp will work.

Not that hard to fix.

I'm not sure of what method the testing facility uses to get the results. but that's something that I can find out.

Yes the petioles are purple so are the stems. I grabbed it from (5) 5gal pots that have been in the soil for about 4.5 weeks. My beds are brand new this will be the first run with plants in them.
Gypsum I will give that a try I actually think I have some on hand.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

Any idea what procedure this was?

Did you just grab a handful from the bag and send it to the lab? Or is this from active beds? Ideally you would sift out the fines of new material, right out of the bagand not send in big stuff, most labs dry and then grind the samples... not good.

If those numbers were run using Melich 3 and prepared correctly, you are way short on Ca, you K is high especially in combination with all that sodium. All the petioles purple? I would bet they all are...

You need B, Cu and Mn. You are toxic in Fe and Al.

I would rinse this mix heavily to get rid of some of that K and most importantly Na, as you don't have any space chemically to add more without getting on a lot of Ca quickly. Gyp will work.

Not that hard to fix.

Where can I learn more on what the proper levels of each element should be in my soil?

 

[slownickel]

Levels are one thing, balance is something completely different.

Do you have any woowoo juice on your shelf with a lot of P (phosphorus)?

N P K the middle number.

 

[Dr.FillDaBlunt]

Levels are one thing, balance is something completely different.

Do you have any woowoo juice on your shelf with a lot of P (phosphorus)?

N P K the middle number.

All I have it Mammoth P. Thats only microbes not a fertilizer. I will be amending the with BioLive 5-4-2.