Can you have too much ca

[Rico Swazi]

soil tests are only as good as the protocol/time of collection
soil chemistry alters over time which has had many grower chasing their tails amending this, adding that
Save your money, treat the wife to a night out , she deserves it and you do to

Relax Bio boy, you got this
happy and productive new years to you

 

[Bio boy]

soil tests are only as good as the protocol/time of collection
soil chemistry alters over time which has had many grower chasing their tails amending this, adding that
Save your money, treat the wife to a night out , she deserves it and you do to

Relax Bio boy, you got this
happy and productive new years to you

Yeah man defo I’m starting to
I’m panicking as I have 6 rare as fook plants I can’t ever get again and I want em perfect I’m breeding this round and tbh I’m shocked I found them bloody almost planted them in my sodium bed my balls dissapeared and I headed to panic for soil perfection lol

 

[KIS]

soil tests are only as good as the protocol/time of collection
soil chemistry alters over time which has had many grower chasing their tails amending this, adding that
Save your money, treat the wife to a night out , she deserves it and you do to

Relax Bio boy, you got this
happy and productive new years to you

Sure if you take a poor sample it won’t be representative of your soil, but it’s easy to take a sample and there’s a lot a soil test can tell you. It’s by far the best metric for evaluating the chemistry of your soil. There’s a reason we do an M3 and saturated paste test, so we can look at what’s available to the plant now and what’s coming down the line.

 

[Bio boy]

Sure if you take a poor sample it won’t be representative of your soil, but it’s easy to take a sample and there’s a lot a soil test can tell you. It’s by far the best metric for evaluating the chemistry of your soil. There’s a reason we do an M3 and saturated paste test, so we can look at what’s available to the plant now and what’s coming down the line.

He fobbed me off on email saying that it is the UK standard and that he used al to extract ca

Long story short she said it won't matter peat or not and won't refund

 

[Rico Swazi]

Sure if you take a poor sample it won’t be representative of your soil, but it’s easy to take a sample and there’s a lot a soil test can tell you. It’s by far the best metric for evaluating the chemistry of your soil. There’s a reason we do an M3 and saturated paste test, so we can look at what’s available to the plant now and what’s coming down the line.

I agree a soil test is an invaluable tool but a tool used improperly is more likely to result in unexpected and perhaps damaging consequences.. That is why I will disagree that soil collection is easy for the inexperienced gardener. Add to that, till or no till each have their own specific depth protocol for collection due to nutrient stratification.

The previous examples show that top-dressed lime or N changes pH in the soil surface when tillage
is absent. In a similar manner, surface application of other nutrients, such as P and K, without tillage
increases the concentration of these nutrients at the soil surface. If these nutrients are applied to the soil
surface without tillage, they will remain in the top 1 to 2 inches.

For example, soil test P in a Willamette Valley clover–grass pasture was 4 ppm. After 6 years of
P application and adequate crop growth, soil test P was still 4 ppm. Both soil samples were collected to
a depth of 8 inches, the historical norm. In contrast, the soil test P of a sample collected from the top
3 inches after 6 years of P application was 19 ppm. This example shows that fertilizer P stayed at the
soil surface and was available for plant use. The soil samples collected to a depth of 8 inches mixed subsurface
soil having a low P soil test with surface soil having a higher P soil test. Taking soil samples from
multiple depths showed that fertilizer P applications did not change soil test P uniformly in the soil.

https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/em9014/html


another from OSU on Interpretation

Soil Test Interpretation Guide

This publication provides an overview of soil testing and general guidelines for interpreting soil test results for nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur, potassium, calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc, copper, manganese, iron, molybdenum, chloride, sodium, soluble salts, organic matter, cation exchange...

extension.oregonstate.edu

Would be interesting to hear the protocol you recommend and the methods the OP followed. Maybe something jumps out.

Appreciate the discourse Tad, You killed it with the tea thread so please consider starting an all inclusive soil testing protocol thread. .Would be of great service to the cannabis community my friend . hint nudge puff puff pass

 

[Rico Swazi]

interesting post by Slipnot
suggesting calcium source, in this case, gypsum as being problematic for the labratories in quantifying actual calcium levels

As the rate of gypsum is increased you can see the test level for calcium increases while the level of magnesium, potassium and sodium remain the same (Figure 2). When gypsum (calcium sulfate) is applied to the soil, it dissolves in the soil solution. Some of the calcium becomes attached to soil particles as part of the cation exchange capacity of the soil. The remaining gypsum stays in the soil solution as dissolved calcium sulfate salt. The soil testing method used by all commercial and University soil testing laboratories picks up the calcium that is held on the soil, as well as the calcium that is dissolved in the soil solution as soluble salts. The calcium in the soil solution is “NOT” held on the soil, and should not be included because it is not held on the soil, but it is included in the common method used by all soil testing laboratories. Because this soil testing method includes the calcium from the soil solution, the test values reported are inflated on the high side. You can see this inflation occurring as the rate of gypsum increases in Figure 2. The calcium test value goes up, but the soil is not holding more calcium, the test is just including the calcium dissolved in the salts in the soil solution. You can see this is true because the salt level increases as the rate of gypsum increases.

The Myth of Gypsum Magic

Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University The Myth of Gypsum Magic “Adding gypsum to your yard or garden will improve soil tilth and plant health” The Myth Upon continued prodding from one...

www.icmag.com

 

[Three Berries]

Around me they started to use calcium chloride for ice prevention on the roads instead of salt. Applied as a liquid it's cheaper and is not harmful to plants. Doesn't eat up your car too.

 

[KIS]

Around me they started to use calcium chloride for ice prevention on the roads instead of salt. Applied as a liquid it's cheaper and is not harmful to plants. Doesn't eat up your car too.

I agree a soil test is an invaluable tool but a tool used improperly is more likely to result in unexpected and perhaps damaging consequences.. That is why I will disagree that soil collection is easy for the inexperienced gardener. Add to that, till or no till each have their own specific depth protocol for collection due to nutrient stratification.



https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/em9014/html


another from OSU on Interpretation

Soil Test Interpretation Guide

This publication provides an overview of soil testing and general guidelines for interpreting soil test results for nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur, potassium, calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc, copper, manganese, iron, molybdenum, chloride, sodium, soluble salts, organic matter, cation exchange...

extension.oregonstate.edu

Would be interesting to hear the protocol you recommend and the methods the OP followed. Maybe something jumps out.

Appreciate the discourse Tad, You killed it with the tea thread so please consider starting an all inclusive soil testing protocol thread. .Would be of great service to the cannabis community my friend . hint nudge puff puff pass

Appreciate the discourse too. I'm always down for a good discussion or debate. It is unfortunate so many folks make it into personal attacks and such.

I think the challenge for most folks is in interpretation, and frankly that can take some time to learn or you can pay someone to interpret your tests or use a calculator (not my favorite option and I hope to do a podcast here soon with Bryant at Soil Doctor Consulting on why). He does have the best calculator for cannabis though if you do want to go that route.

The soil test is a tool in my book, just like a rake or a watering hose. It gives you more information but not everything. Sampling error can occur. Most of the folks I work with are in potting soil or what many call "living soil." Not actual soil (sand/silt/clay). I like to use Logan Labs and get the Meilich III and Saturated Paste tests done, but you can use any good lab for your testing. For sampling, I tell folks to use a plastic tool or wear gloves and dig down approximately 6 inches for the sample. Throw it in a ziploc bag and that's it. You can mix multiple samples into one sample if you have multiple beds/pots you are wanting to test.

I can glance at a complete Logan Labs test and tell pretty quickly what the limiting factors are. I don't consider the numbers to be exact, but they give me an idea what's in the soil and what is going to be available over time. The saturated paste test addresses you gypsum post above too, as it uses either distilled or your own irrigation water (preferred) to determine what's falling into solution so it's accurate on Ca.

With the Meilich III test, they're only using 1/2 tsp of soil when they run the sample so it is possible to get errors if a piece of fish bone meal ended up in that sample for example. However, in most cases the tests are reasonable accurate and over time you can see how your inputs are moving the soil either into better or worse fertility.

I can't tell you how many times I went to review a test with a commercial facility and they tell me that no nitrogen has been added this cycle or no phosphorus and I can look at the test and their previous test and know they are wrong. I'll have them go back to the staff and sure enough, someone was adding fish hydrolysate or a grow formulation, or something. So the test does tell us quite a bit.

The reason I don't like calculators as much as a person is that I like to take into account a variety of things when considering soil fertility. What was the yield, genetics, how did this cycle compare to previous ones, what was your VPD, PPFD at canopy, pest pressure, etc.....all of those things can play a role in plant health and nutrient uptake so it's important to figure out what your limiting factor of growth is. If a facility say had their lights at 600 ppfd at canopy in flower then I'd assume that their soil is not the biggest problem they're facing and light is most likely the limiting factor of growth.

Hope that better explains my thoughts on this.
Tad

 

[40degsouth]

Hey everyone.
Bio boy, have you thought of flushing the soil you are already using?? I’m pretty sure it’s one third water to the soil volume but I guess if you’ve got problems maybe use more. I think it’s a 1/3 so you don’t flush to many nutrients.
Also organic inputs can take six or more weeks to become plant available, depending on soil temperatures and biology. You can circumvent this by keeping a worm farm or if you’ve got a decent backyard, a bucket of water, with everything in it, to rot down and then use the diluted liquid to feed your plants. “Less is more”
Gypsum is used to recondition salty soils.
And look what the cat’s dragged in eh……Rico Swazi

 

[Rico Swazi]

Hey 40, good to see you. How do you do your soil tests?
What method, tools, incantations or hand gestures do you use use when taking a sample ?
which includes you @Bio boy What was the protocol you followed?
Thanks @KIS for your reply, also very helpful.

My point is two ways of soil collection/sampling will give the most accurate results.
slice sampling as described below from logan labs and University of Illinois Extension







or core sampling homemade 2" stainless in this case holding fingers in Vulcan one finger salute

Any other method (of soil sampling) is suspect to add confusion

 

[YellowCanaryConsulting]

Soil samples are a waste of time. Zero correlation between standard analysis methodologies and sap content. Yes you can have too much calcium. The fix is to add everything that Calcium antagonizes, not to pay for a scam. You might stumble across something worthwhile taking things into your own hands. Most labs can't even distinguish between available and unavailable calcium. Same with tissue analysis ripoffs. Only sap analysis can offer an accurate approach to correcting soil profiles.

Manganese is the best example of the analysis racket. Zero correlation between soil manganese and sap content. Zero correlation between foliar oxidized manganese from sulfate sprays on the leave surface, and sap content. The ag sector pays the stupid tax on this already. Pot growers are being taxed twice doing all this bogus soil science.

 

[Bio boy]

Hey everyone.
Bio boy, have you thought of flushing the soil you are already using?? I’m pretty sure it’s one third water to the soil volume but I guess if you’ve got problems maybe use more. I think it’s a 1/3 so you don’t flush to many nutrients.
Also organic inputs can take six or more weeks to become plant available, depending on soil temperatures and biology. You can circumvent this by keeping a worm farm or if you’ve got a decent backyard, a bucket of water, with everything in it, to rot down and then use the diluted liquid to feed your plants. “Less is more”
Gypsum is used to recondition salty soils.
And look what the cat’s dragged in eh……Rico Swazi

I did think but somuch els could wash out and the soil had collapsed from adding magnesium to watering as instructed to combat false led mg def
also with low ca levels k pushed high with kelp it was easy to rebuild so I’ve dug it out
plants didn’t root they looked like same root bound plants except one in middle

I potted them up to heal while I rebuild around the surviving plants who took over whole bed with roots as her roots hit the edges she started to show mg like the others and ca
I dug her roots carefully as much as I could remove i took around 360litre out and have washed her centre island down and wet vac the water away
she is clean standing in a 20l soil ball central but fixed she rooted to the floor so I can’t uproot her lol

I have remixed fresh peat ewc lava and amendments dolomite gypsum oyster
alfalfa kelp basalt etc and . It’s sat atm waiting For my postman to deliver biochar and I wil mix it all up and fill the 4x4 bed back in and repot the other plants covered in mychiza fungus

then I will allow them a few weeks till new growth forms well and green and then flip them


my other soil room is being rebuilt into 54litre fab pots same new soil and plants will be off as there root bound as hell

@Rico Swazi thankyou for including me bro honored , seen you about here a few times in recent posts lol
many protocol was I mixed the bed as was to be mixed and took like you say tube samples or dug down taking a good deep handful

my other bed was all mixed together so I took a few samples each time from dofferent places it was in my bath lol

I posted the recipie up I was going to follow however the bonemeal and shut I’m dropping and will be doing coots style but with alfalfa instead of neem
and I’m figuring out how I can keep ca stacked as slow nickle says without overdoing it hmm
mother than that I will raise k in flower kelp or sop and keep p as it is as I will be reamending with chicken shit and using fish hydrolysate in veg

 

[X15]

Great idea coring. That’s a great tool to understand. Very helpful imo.
I use to pull 100 cores a day and would wear notches in my belt from my tool lol. The only profiling I believe in haha.

 

[KIS]

You can absolutely use soil testing as a tool for analyzing soil fertility. Ideally you would use a combination of tests like the Meilich III and Saturated Paste and then compare those tests over time/crop cycles. Many agronomists soil testing as an effective tool in managing soil health and fertility. You can add plant tissue testing to the regiment where it's available and affordable but for the average home grower it's not very useful.

 

[KIS]

Soil samples are a waste of time. Zero correlation between standard analysis methodologies and sap content. Yes you can have too much calcium. The fix is to add everything that Calcium antagonizes, not to pay for a scam. You might stumble across something worthwhile taking things into your own hands. Most labs can't even distinguish between available and unavailable calcium. Same with tissue analysis ripoffs. Only sap analysis can offer an accurate approach to correcting soil profiles.

Manganese is the best example of the analysis racket. Zero correlation between soil manganese and sap content. Zero correlation between foliar oxidized manganese from sulfate sprays on the leave surface, and sap content. The ag sector pays the stupid tax on this already. Pot growers are being taxed twice doing all this bogus soil science.

This is inaccurate. Sap testing is not terribly useful. It gives you a quick snapshot of a the vascular system at one location in the plant. It doesn't tell you anything about what's coming down the line in regards to fertility. More conventional soil testing like I mentioned is used commonly in agriculture and has been for decades. There's a ton of research to support it and a strong correlation between soil health and plant health. I'm doing a podcast here soon with Dr. Cari Peters on the subject to explain the differences. Even dry ash tissue testing is more useful in my opinion than sap testing with cannabis.

 

[Rico Swazi]

many protocol was I mixed the bed as was to be mixed and took like you say tube samples or dug down taking a good deep handful

Which was it? tube sample (coring) or slice sample
digging down and taking a good handful is not an option if you want accurate results
I don't believe you took a good enough representation but if you do think so then carry on

@Bio boy
I suggest you use the soil that worked for you in the past in a couple containers
Then experiment with what you want in the other containers keeping a good tally of it all
just that simple, which BTW, simplicity is what you are needing most from what I have read

side by sides mate and have fun with it

 

[Rico Swazi]

Great idea coring. That’s a great tool to understand. Very helpful imo.
I use to pull 100 cores a day and would wear notches in my belt from my tool lol. The only profiling I believe in haha.

Was a machinist/fabricator in my past life and made over two dozen coring tools in different configurations for the OSU small farms extension service program. All in that 2" stainless with the longest one being 60". Students came and did soil tests for free for gardeners in the Salem area where I live in spring and fall
that was late 90s. Nothing free anymore

100 cores is impressive! were you involved with soil testing?

 

[Bio boy]

Was a machinist/fabricator in my past life and made over two dozen coring tools in different configurations for the OSU small farms extension service program. All in that 2" stainless with the longest one being 60". Students came and did soil tests for free for gardeners in the Salem area where I live in spring and fall
that was late 90s. Nothing free anymore

100 cores is impressive! were you involved with soil testing?

Nice
nah one was a bed fixed I did cores on

the 2nd was hand mixed in the bath so didn’t see point in cores just took handfuls from random bits as it was totaly mixed up not just a soil was just totaly spun like a cement mixer is why I took handfuls

 

[X15]

Was a machinist/fabricator in my past life and made over two dozen coring tools in different configurations for the OSU small farms extension service program. All in that 2" stainless with the longest one being 60". Students came and did soil tests for free for gardeners in the Salem area where I live in spring and fall
that was late 90s. Nothing free anymore

100 cores is impressive! were you involved with soil testing?

That’s awesome bud. That’s awesome you could do that for those students. I actually graduated from OSU. Back then I was more a turf science guy and worked at a number of golf course. But most of my coring was due to having the opportunity of managing a 135 acre golf course property that was 10 years new when I arrived. It was capped and there was two different fill aggregates used during the green complex construction. So there was endless opportunity for soil improvement… my fascination with soil profiles and moisture/ penetration, bacteria, etc began.
I’d go on my morning rounds after the crews went out and looked for every possible variant I could find and relied on my probe for a visual snap shot and often something to take back to the office to put under the microscope. Soil samples would be sent off twice a year as well, so with that much property it was imperative to have a solid game plan and understanding. I had gps maps made out with grids and would notate the locations… core pic, e.c. , ph. So a few here and few there adds up and before ya know if you got holes in your belt and your probe is half as long lol.
Sorry for the dragged out response lol

 

[Rico Swazi]

That’s awesome bud. That’s awesome you could do that for those students. I actually graduated from OSU. Back then I was more a turf science guy and worked at a number of golf course. But most of my coring was due to having the opportunity of managing a 135 acre golf course property that was 10 years new when I arrived. It was capped and there was two different fill aggregates used during the green complex construction. So there was endless opportunity for soil improvement… my fascination with soil profiles and moisture/ penetration, bacteria, etc began.
I’d go on my morning rounds after the crews went out and looked for every possible variant I could find and relied on my probe for a visual snap shot and often something to take back to the office to put under the microscope. Soil samples would be sent off twice a year as well, so with that much property it was imperative to have a solid game plan and understanding. I had gps maps made out with grids and would notate the locations… core pic, e.c. , ph. So a few here and few there adds up and before ya know if you got holes in your belt and your probe is half as long lol.
Sorry for the dragged out response lol

I was gonna take a guess at turf/course , or large farming op. Either way, by the sound of it, a fascinating and rewarding job improving the soil through science. Some of the OSU students would leave the core in a sterilized tube to take back to the lab for microbial testing. No GPS back then, wrote the particulars on the tube with a grease pencil. They were very strict with protocol and methodology which is why I jump in these threads asking how the tests were done. You said it best, "imperative to have a solid game plan and understanding" no matter size and scope of the endeavor. Fun discourse brother! .. gobeavs !!!

Nice
nah one was a bed fixed I did cores on

the 2nd was hand mixed in the bath so didn’t see point in cores just took handfuls from random bits as it was totaly mixed up not just a soil was just totaly spun like a cement mixer is why I took handfuls

If you are confident in your sampling, then rock on my friend. I personally think you are chasing numbers that are inaccurate from the start. Remember that base cation paper I posted earlier ? The jury is still out on saturation levels. My suggestion for you is work on biological diversity for nutrient cycling. Without biology, plants suffer no matter the nutrient content, Onions and garlic are good companion plants to grow indoors along with your herb. It surprises people how little amendment I add to see the results I do.
Learning the lesson "less is more" comes with a little effort and patience but well worth it IMO