Can someone illustrate strain combinations while breeding?

[TheScorpion]

Hey all,

I'd like to learn how much of what parentage offspring inherit, particularly in a case where one has an 80/20% indica/sativa strain and then breeds it with a 100% sativa strain.

Will the offspring be 40% indica and 60% sativa?

A grid of possibilities based on dominant and recessive gene expressions?


It's hard to find a concise explanation on the web.

Any thoughts?

 

[therevverend]

How do you know the strain is 80% sativa, 20% indica? Is it a hybrid that the breeder is claiming is 'Sativa dominate' because it has a 'clear positive upbeat' high? These days most everyone claims their plants are Sativa dominate and try to downplay Indicas because most smokers think Indicas are bad with crappy couchlock effects. Most of these strains are more like 50/50 and the effects are Indica dominate although no one wants to admit they like it..

I've had a lot of experience breeding with poly-hybrids. In these situations most of the offspring resemble one parent or another. Usually there's 2 or 3 phenotypes, one taking after each parent. With maybe a 3rd or more that aren't as common throwing some interesting recessive traits. The 20% this/80% that stuff is crap.

 

[TheScorpion]

How do you know the strain is 80% sativa, 20% indica? Is it a hybrid that the breeder is claiming is 'Sativa dominate' because it has a 'clear positive upbeat' high? These days most everyone claims their plants are Sativa dominate and try to downplay Indicas because most smokers think Indicas are bad with crappy couchlock effects. Most of these strains are more like 50/50 and the effects are Indica dominate although no one wants to admit they like it..

No, it's Triple Cheese from feminized seeds a friend bought. 80% indica, 20% sativa.

From Barney's:
TRIPLE CHEESE™ Cannabis Seeds Specifications
Type: Feminised
Photoperiod:
Normal Cultivation: Indoor/outdoor
Genetics: Old Cheese x Blue Cheese
Effect: Tingly Arousal, Body High, Long Lasting, Happy
Indoor Yield (g): 600 gr/m²
Flowering Time (days): 50 - 55
Feminised Outdoor
Harvest Month: September
Feminised Outdoor Harvest Month Week: 2nd-3rd week
Height (cm): 90/100cm
Height Indoor (cm): 100cm
Indica %: 80% Sativa %: 20%
Medical: No Taste: Cheesy, Herbal, Sweet, Sour, Dank Aroma: Sweet Cream Cheese, Pungent

Crossed with Nepalese Jamaican which were from seeds produced from older stock, c. 2007-2009, the lineage ACE's Nep Jam came from.
Side Note: They did a great job stabilizing that strain and really fine tuned it.

Nepalese Jamaican is said to be a 100% sativa, but I have my doubts. Consider that Nepalese Highland came from an area along the Silk Road and saw a lot of trade from points west and south.

I guess I was just curious about how that sort of thing is handed down and in what percentages.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the above values are known to be accurate and these plants are bred.

What percentages of each variety do they carry?

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

A plant inherits 50% from each parent, 25% from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great grandparent, 6.25 from g-g-grandparents and so on. So, if I cross a Green Crack with a Gorilla Glue x Green Crack I'll get 75/25% GC-GG. If I cross that 75/25 plant back to the pure GC, I'll get 62.5/37.5% GC-GG. It's close to 60/40, but not exactly.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G `day TS

Dunno is this the case here .
But worth understanding .9:3:3:1 . It means a big pheno spread . And popping a lot of seeds to see them all represented .

A classic Mendelian example of independent assortment: the 9:3:3:1 phenotypic ratio associated with a dihybrid cross (BbEe × BbEe).

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Burro Johnson]

There are so many answers to this question and a few different trains of thought can be explored.

f1 hybrids can blend traits of two parents in varying degrees within the same plant

f2 seeds can have representations of characteristics of both parents but expressed in ways that are mixed with other traits, like having a lemony sativa smell on a short frosty indica and almost any amount of other traits mixed inbetween

f3 and beyond are considered inbred lines can be implemented to isolate particular traits you wish to preserve, the more you inbreed something for a particular trait the more it will be present in the subsequent lines.

there are many dominant co dominant and recessive traits but if you have a particular idea in mind when creating a strain and then selecting parental plants that are in line with your goal you have a better chance of creating something you intended to

an example of a co dominant trait is when you cross an autoflower with a photoperiod strain creating a strain that has a reduced flowering time but can also be kept as a clone
make an f2 of those seeds and you reveal 25% of your seeds will be autoflower. Select for autoflowers and make f3 and you have 100% autoflower.

some things to consider when making a cross are effect potency flavor yield color heritage and height
research on strains you want to use aswell as trial in error give you the control once you become familiar with what your working with

 

[therevverend]

From Barney's:
TRIPLE CHEESE™ Cannabis Seeds Specifications
Type: Feminised
Photoperiod:
Normal Cultivation: Indoor/outdoor
Genetics: Old Cheese x Blue Cheese
Effect: Tingly Arousal, Body High, Long Lasting, Happy
Indoor Yield (g): 600 gr/m²
Flowering Time (days): 50 - 55
Feminised Outdoor
Harvest Month: September
Feminised Outdoor Harvest Month Week: 2nd-3rd week
Height (cm): 90/100cm
Height Indoor (cm): 100cm
Indica %: 80% Sativa %: 20%
Medical: No Taste: Cheesy, Herbal, Sweet, Sour, Dank Aroma: Sweet Cream Cheese, Pungent

That's exactly what I'm talking about. They have no idea if it's 80% sativa/20% Indica. How do they know it's in that ratio? Cheesy, skunky flavors come from Afghan Indica strains. To me cheese is an Indica dominate strain no matter how you cut it.

 

[jaypopnseeds]

Some of you guys are overthinking this stuff way too much.

Nobody knows the genetics underlying “sativa” vs “indica” effects, and it’s almost certainly a complex interaction of many, many genes. Mendelian genetics isn’t really useful when it comes to complex traits.

But more importantly, whenever someone says it’s “70/30”, it’s just a guess. Either they’ve smoked it, and to them it feels like a “70/30” or it’s a shot in the dark based on the parents. Regardless of what the breeder says, in any hybrid cross it’s possible to find phenotypes with wildly varying effects, so it’s best not to take these ratios too seriously.

 

[MJPassion]

SATIVA: is a latin term that means Cultivated.


Any definition beyond that is incorrectly applied because a couple of jack asses thought they could get away with this ignorant Sativa/Indica paradigm argument in court.


Indicas are from India... and they're not all W/BLD plants!
Afghanis are from Afghanistan... and they're not all W/BLD plants!
Pakis are from Pakistan... and they not all W/BLD plants!
Chinesis are from China... and they're not all NLD plants!


What you are growing is 100% SATIVA because it was cultivated.


This sativa/indica thing is just about as useful as having only two political parties!

 

[green-genes77]

Unfortunately, most approaches to assessing cannabis geographic origin and any genotypic/phenotypic/chemotypic history are oversimplified and anachronistic.

Principles of Mendellian genetics only take you so far, and almost nobody is using true P1 breeding stock at this point anyhow. The false dichotomy of sativa/indica further clouds things. Oh, this is a 75% sativa? Meaningless. Which alleles were passed on to the progeny in what frequency and how are they expressed phenotypically and chemotypically is what we really want to know. That takes time, space, patience, observation and a grasp of modern principles of genetic inheritance.

 

[Cvh]

Get a copy of the book 'The Cannabis breeders bible' by Greg Green.
It will give you a basic understanding about breeding, inheritance, Punnett squares,...etc.
Very cheap book actually for all the info it contains.

https://www.amazon.com/Cannabis-Breeders-Bible-Definitive-Marijuana/dp/1931160279

 

[MJPassion]

^^^
there's a free download if you can find it.
sorry, I don't have a link.

 

[therevverend]

Huh i thought it didn't publish my second rant about the cheese strain not being Sativa. My dyslexia kicked in and I got it backwards they were saying Cheese is 80% Indica not Sativa. As you probably noticed a pet peeve of mine is bud tenders and breeders trying to pass Indica dominate hybrids off as Sativas to make $$ on people's lack of knowledge..Anyway,

SATIVA: is a latin term that means Cultivated.


Any definition beyond that is incorrectly applied because a couple of jack asses thought they could get away with this ignorant Sativa/Indica paradigm argument in court.

Ha ha you know it's more complicated then that. I wouldn't call them jackasses they were fighting the DEA over a fucked up law. At that time there was no genetic testing and cannabis research was very limited. In the 70s it was possible that Cannabis Indica could have been a different species or subspecies.

It's actually surprising how haphazardly biologists can decide if a species is a subspecies, genus, or species. It's entirely up to the discretion of the biologist and based on past standards. In the 19th century there was a tendency to split groups into lots of different species and subspecies. By the 1950s biologists were combining groups that had been previously split apart.

In the 1990s things started to be split again because of DNA. Now they're finding a lot of animals that were previously thought to be the same are actually two different species.

For instance Clouded Leopards were regarded as one group, Neofelis nebulosa. With genetic testing biologists decided that the clouded leopards on the islands of Borneo and Sumatra were genetically distinct enough to be called a different species, Neofelis diardi. This has a big impact on environmental laws and which species are considered endangered.

Why this is relevant to cannabis. In the 70s there were three different species of cannabis recognized, Cannabis Sativa, Cannabis Indica, and Cannabis Ruderalis. By the 90s they realized these groups are much more similar then they originally thought. And now they're realizing just how adaptable and plastic the cannabis plant is, in a few generations a group can go from wide leaves to thin leaves and vice versa.

And someone might say, how can they be different species if they can interbreed? Lions and tigers can make ligers, Homo Sapiens bred with Homo Neanderthal. Species that split millions of years earlier can still make viable offspring. I consider it a very lucky chance of evolution that chimpanzees and humans can't produce viable offspring, but it's been attempted...

 

[TheScorpion]

Wow, thanks to everyone!

I guess it's pretty clear that sativa is merely cultivated cannabis.

Rev... you're right on point there: breeders do need to classify a strain, and so they do so in terms that are familiar to most, even if those terms are disingenuous.

I suppose when I grow the offspring of the 3Ch and NepJam next season, I'll just look for traits I like and make some seeds from them using a stout male that is sticky and vigorous.
I'll keep notes, of course, and just go on growing them out and see what is expressed and try to pick one, two or more traits I want to preserve.

I've read Greg Green's "bible", but he lost me when he asserted that milky trichomes mean the plant was "way past" the proper harvest window. I was like, "Dafuq?".
Still, lots of great info in there.
He's truly dedicated, and maybe the trichome business was a typo or something.


Really, all... thanks for this great info!

Who knows? Maybe next year there will be more to discuss and I can share what I find in the offspring.

Here's the mom:


The dad is long gone... I KEELT him.

That Nepalese Jamaican I've been running is SO, SO stinky.
The 3Ch was pretty dank as well, but I favor the cat-piss/hash/skunk/spice and ketchupy smells the NJ puts out.

The stone is great in the 3Ch, a real treat for sore old knees, I can tell you.
The NJ is like taking half a tab of acid and lasts a pretty long time, like 3 hrs after smoking, and a wide awake high.

What I really should do is have the mom's bud tested and see what's in it for cannabinoid compounds and terpene profile, and then follow up by having the offspring tested.

Pardon me here everyone, I'm baked and it's fun to think out loud in a group like this.

Cheers to all!